Was this including AOTD? Does your Spec have Merciless Combat? Do you have DeathChill Macroed to HB or FS? When do you use UA? Are there any other modifiers to your damage that you didn't suggest? Because with 439 Hit, I don't believe you could possibly be hitting that hard without factors not listed.

You do realize that you're benefiting from someone else's Ebon Plague on the dummy (your image clearly indicates its presence), and therefore your results are way off?

Seriously, people. If you insist on running tests, at the very least take care to list--and account for--all of the conditions under which you're running them. Otherwise there's hardly a point. (A few posters do, and it's appreciated).

Then again, this thread has gone to hell in a basket just about that time when a poster was asking whether he should use his weapon with expertise on it as a MH for more dps.

Hate to point out the obvious, but even it that section of the post you quote he indicated that EP was on the dummy. And if you scroll up 5 posts, #2495, are the rest of the conditions to his tests.

Yup; missed it. My apologies to the OP.

The general point stands, however. As someone else has pointed out, please, please take care to provide intelligent information when posting your results, or else this thread is going to turn into something that belongs on WoW forums rather than EJ.

Yes, some of us are trying our best :P. If you look up, I brought up an entire topic trying to figure out how different the test on a dummy is from a "raid boss", luckily it only had spec variables and did not have outside variables (such as ebon plague, or razorice being applied by someone else).

That being said, I really really need to take some of these specs into raids to test them out. Unfortunately it is looking more and more likely I won't be able to until 3.1.

Hopefully someone will be able to in the near future.

As Oke already said i put all the information about my char, spec, etc. in my post #2495. I know that there is a big difference between Boss Dummy and a Raid Boss, but if Ulduar isn't open for testing or u can't find a proper raid or ur ping and disconnects make raiding impossible the Boss Dummy is the only way to go.
At the moment I just compare my DPS with 32/39 on live server on a boss dummy, with the results i get on the ptr with other specs.

@malscent & Direheart
At first read my whole post carefully and the other one just 2 posts above the one your discussing about before starting flaming people, which just want to share some of their data with u.

It wasn't my intention for my post to come across as a flame, I'm just trying to find out why exactly you're seeing numbers in excess of 300DPS of what I'm seeing, except when I use AOTD, especially considering that you're saying you have way excess hit rating.

I apologize if my tone came off condescending, as i said, that was completely unintentional.

Now back to the discussion,

As per your previous post, You are using HB when Rime Procs, Doesn't this cause issues with your rotation (Considering the long cooldown) If so, How exactly are you prioritizing the FU runes left over in the rotation (And the GCD's)

I adjusted my rotation to PS-IT-IT-HB-BS-FS Dump by starting with a Death Rune. If Rime procs I adjust my "normal" Rotation PS-IT-IT-HB(with Rime)-extra IT-BS-FS Dump, so I`m left over with one Unholy Rune unused but PlagueStrike doesn't realy hit that hard that it would be necessary here. In the next turn I stick to my old rotation PS-IT-IT-HB-BS-FS Dump, because of the extra IT of the previous rotation u have to wait for 1second (or 1GCD) between 2nd IT and HB, I just use an FS here to fill this "gap". The Rime Procs does not realy cause big problems with our rotation because the proc just allow us a free HB and does not reset the normal 10sec CD so it is possible to almost stick to the normal rotation.

Are you using your perma ghoul those of you who speced 50-51 in frost ?

Bcuz I am not sure we should take in count parse from deep frost poeple that was running parse with their perma ghoul.

1) I fear that pet will simply die to fast in most boss fight if not speced for ghoul frenzy at very least (and I dont think that rk1 NotD would be luxury)

2)I also suspect the DPS potential of the unholy DK to be increasing bether then a deep frost DW build for a simple reason, and it's the way ghoul benefit from raid buffing.

Your strike % damage won't increase as much as the DPS % of a ghoul comparing self-buffed vs raid buffed. If the parse I have seen on the previous pages of this tread you can expect to see your ghoul dmg going from 200dps to 800dps but you won,t see your stirkes dmg going from X dmg to 4X dmg.

We won't have any proof of this untill it goes live and we can start to do raid parse.

But I do realy suspect that a ghoul-less deep frost DW spec doing 3k dps on a dummy over the same DK beeing unholy with perma ghoul doing 2.9k would see its Unholy spec dmg > Frost spec dmg if he would be raid buffed.

But I might be wrong so I'd like to see test made about that.

Besides GF and NotD for survivability, what skills would the Unholy DK get that a deep frost built 0/51/19+1 not get that would help the ghoul, besides if they were 2h Unholy and subspecced into blood. Unless I am missing something that just recently changed on the PTR in the past 2 days.

nothing but a ghoul without any of those skill would simply die pretty fast from AoE in some boss fight. Well even with NotD in 3.09 you ghoul manage to die a lot.

I just wanted to point that a deep frost DW build simply cannot count the total damage his ghoul would do on a dummy simply bcuz on the real content his pet will most likely not be alive true the whole fight.

You even stated it there. So from what you're saying, Since one spec allows the ghoul to die a little more/a little faster, we should not include it's dps... That is somewhat unreasonable IMO. Also see what kudzupo says.

EDIT: Also from looking at your DK's level, how much raid content have you seen with a ghoul up?

1) The fact that my DK havent raided change nothing to my point. A DK without without frenzy and/ or NotD will see his ghoul diying more often then a players speced for those talent. It is not my claim it has simply been stated several time on several post on these forums.

2) No the DPs of the ghoul shouldn't be completly removed but like I said. In a fair DW spec discussion we must point that a deep frost build might see his pet diying a bit more on X fight wich is decreasing his DPS a bit.

The same must be done about deep unholy spec that would be disavantaged in Y fight compared to a deep frost build.

Edit: as my comment on ghoul with NotD in 3.09 manage to die a lot simply point that someone whitout NotD will see his ept diying more often. But also in 3.1 ghoul survavibility got improved even more for those DK heavy in the unholy tree with the HoT on Ghoul Frenzy.

Well it's quite obvious the ghoul will be dying more often, the question is to what extent. A lot of times, my ghoul will be Chain healed or some other AoE healed before it dies when I have done 0/2 NotD before. It's also about how much AoE there is on the fight.

Exactly. In my experience, my ghoul as 44/27 does not die very much at all, particularly on content that is well learned. I don't have much trouble micromanaging on Kael, Sarth, etc. You just hit passive as you're running away. I will concede the point that on progression content healers will be less likely to heal your ghoul. Such as it is, there's no way to quantify this.

Concerning this debate regarding the benefit of NotD, how much a ghoul's dps should be taken away from dummy tests, etc., the simple truth is that there is no way to predict exactly how much NotD will help us without extensive raid testing to see exactly how much AoE is in Ulduar, and how much it will affect the ghoul's uptime. We can postulate of course, and such is helpful (to an extent). However, for the real results this thread is very interested in and discussion arising from the interest of, we'll just have to sit tight, take the little guys in there, and see how fast they're waxed.

For what it's worth, I suspect things will end up similar to the way they are now; some people will insist the ghouls are made of glass, and die off the bat. Some will keep suggesting the ghouls are made of sterner stuff than you would think, have great healers to keep them up, etc. I'm in the latter group from experience.

I have an interesting aside that perhaps someone could remedy.

Someone posted test results indicating KM procs from his offhand, using a mod that counted the procs. He did 3 tests, and I will link the results he linked:

2H Proc Test - 4.88 PPM
DW Proc Test - 8.14 PPM
DW Proc Test (w/ 2/5 Icy Talons up) - 9.68 PPM

He does not change any gear (except weapons obviously) or his presence during the tests. He is obviously way under the hit cap for DW, so his PPM should go down, not up. I tried to duplicate his tests and I get about 5 PPM with a 2h and with DW using many different weapon combinations (fast/fast, slow/fast, fast/slow, etc).

From the screenshots, he appears to be using Slayer of the Lifeless / Torment of the Banished, which is fast/slow.

Any idea what would cause an offhand weapon to proc Killing Machine?

He has almost no haste at all and he does have an offhand equipped and it does not appear to be broken in the screenshots.

His mainhand one-hander has Razorfrost on it, for which the damage proc can also proc KM (known bug). His two-hander has FC on it, which does not cause extra KM procs.

That does indeed seem to be it. Was not aware of this bug. Thanks for solving the mystery.

The really weird part being, I've tested KM procrate on build 9464, and it was substancially higher using a 2-hander with Fallen Crusader than DWing with FC in MH and RI in OH.
I haven't written down all figures, but here's what it looked like:

Wpn type	Presence	Icy Talons (Y/N)	PPM
2H	BP	N	6.25
2H	BP	Y	7
2H	UP	Y	7.5
DW	BP	N	4.67
DW	BP	Y	6.58
DW	UP	Y	4.67

What I did was auto-attack the dummy, monitoring KM procs with NeedToKnow, and using procs as fast as possible with either FS or HB for non-IT test, with IT elseways. 4mn test runs each, procrate monitored with Proculas.
2-hander was Armageddon (Fallen Crusader), 1-handers were Silent Crusader (FC) and Widow's Fury (RI).

Keep in mind this was tested on build 9464, so it might not be up-to-date and relevant regarding current mechanisms on PTR, but it looks like there's some KM procrate scaling with haste we might be unaware of.

Interresting. What comes to the PPM mechanism and haste the dw UP ppm should have been higher than the dw BP ones. It seems that the Icy talons and UP haste effects don't stack for the KM? I'll test this out in the current 9658 build.

To increase accuracy of your numbers, might I suggest something like the following macro:
/startattack
/cancelaura Killing Machine

[Edit to Clarify: You're testing an auto attack only PPM. You literally don't have to do anything but spam this macro to do that on a Dummy. It gets you your real high end value, approaching optimal overtime. In practice with an actual rotation, due to the possibility of overwriting, you'll see a lower PPM value.]

And literally spam that every GCD. Proc watching addons can't (in my experience) account for overwritten procs. That is, if you have KM proc'd, and it procs again before you use it, the addon doesn't know that it proc'd again.

If you've got access to a keyboard/keypad that will let you put a button push on repeat, that'd be ideal. You could let it run for several hours for each variable while you were away.

The idea behind haste scaling is that, at least previously (TBC and before), PPM was theorized to work strictly off of the unhasted value of the weapon speed. In much the same way that a PPM effect can have a higher realized PPM when it can proc off of special attacks (for instance), an hasted auto-attack should also increase the realized PPM due to hitting as often with a higher proc chance weapon as you would with an unhasted weapon with the same speed.

If that last bit is confusing, I mean something like this (using totally made up numbers; check the Wiki for hasted/PPM actual calculations):
2.4 sec base speed with a 26% proc chance per hit, hasted to 2.0 sec speed
v.
2.0 sec base speed with a 20% proc chance per hit, unhasted.

Within any 60 sec period of time, you get 30 autoattacks. However, every single one of the 2.4 speed weapon attacks has a higher proc chance than the weapon's unhasted equivalent would have.

Remember...those numbers are made up to illustrate my point :>
A slower weapon does have a higher chance per swing to proc a PPM effect than does a faster weapon. What's apparently still unclear is whether or not the PPM chance per swing takes into account the hasted or unhasted speeds for said weapon. The only chance of supporting on or the other is a large sample size of auto attacks, apparently without Razor Ice on the MH.