My last little lingering issue with ghoul frenzy is that, on top of being a DPS loss (unless it's keeping your ghoul alive) it's a runic power loss in some specs. If you are replacing a plague strike with it and have dirge you're throwing away 5 RP every time you use it. DW builds are going to have to rely heavily on their ability to put out more RP than the competition in order to close the DPS gap with 2h builds. It's only 10 runic power a minute but that, for me, is at least 1 wasted GCD a minute for me that I wouldn't have without ghoul frenzy. If the officials ever come back up I'd really like to suggest putting GF on Dirge in place of Oblit.
This is 5 RP every 30 seconds, so it's not as much as you think. You should regain that 5 plus an extra 7 in that time due to Butchery. Plus, Per rune, I think now it is better than a PS. Haven't done any tests yet.
Would anyone like to sum up what the best dps spec is currently for DW? Because after hours of reading and many tests on live, I have yet to break the 2000 dps wall on the test dummies. I'm using 4/5 Heroes' and mostly 10 Naxx gear. I am not just looking for someone to give me a spec so I can just leave and be done with it.
I know there are going to be a lot of changes with the patch so I wanted to know which specs would be the most viable in a raid situation. I tested 0/21/50 and I don't know why but I had tremendous trouble getting most of the mechanics to even work. Maybe I'm just a bad player? It's possible...
EDIT: If you armory me I will be tanked specd because that is my main spec.
Would anyone like to sum up what the best dps spec is currently for DW? Because after hours of reading and many tests on live, I have yet to break the 2000 dps wall on the test dummies. I'm using 4/5 Heroes' and mostly 10 Naxx gear. I am not just looking for someone to give me a spec so I can just leave and be done with it.
I know there are going to be a lot of changes with the patch so I wanted to know which specs would be the most viable in a raid situation. I tested 0/21/50 and I don't know why but I had tremendous trouble getting most of the mechanics to even work. Maybe I'm just a bad player? It's possible...
EDIT: If you armory me I will be tanked specd because that is my main spec.
Sorry, this isn't that kind of thread (or site for that matter). Your live numbers are moot seeing that 3.1 is around the corner. It would be best if you copied over to the PTR and started working with some the new builds being presented near the end of this thread, possibly the 10/10/51 DnD spec, and report back with your findings. No free hand-outs here kid
Armor Penetration is definitely not the answer. While large amounts of armor penetration can improve white damage, it's still one of the poorest stats available. For Unholy builds, only Agility gives worse returns than Armor Penetration even with the increase in effectiveness.
Most of the pieces you should be grabbing will have Strength, Haste, Critical Rating, and Hit as any duel-wield spec. You need to be spell hit capped to be effective. Strength is so superior to other stats that you'll be gemming it exclusively so any gem that needs to be used for Hit is a DPS loss. I have been examining the items best suited for duel-wielding and am pleased with the quality and selection available. However, these pieces generally have one thing in common: no Armor Penetration at all.
This makes sense. When most of your DPS abilities are spells that ignore armor, you're not getting the full benefit of the stat. If this isn't true for you, why aren't you using a two-hander? The thing to remember is that when you are taking Armor Penetration, what are you giving up for it? The armor penetration pieces tend not to have haste. Haste is the stat you want. It makes your spells better, pets better, and your white damage advantage.
Speaking of Haste, it's value decreases when all of the GCDs aren't used. This is the new problem I'm running into with a DnD build. To give an example, 0/20/51 on Live currently uses every GCD. On the opening poster of DW Unholy DPS discussion, I show the math involved and how Haste improves DPS on spells if you are using all the GCDs.
For example, 350 Haste Rating reduces GCD by 0.145 sec. An Icy Touch spell normally has a 1.5 sec GCD attached to it. So if that Icy Touch spell deals 3000 damage, it normally is 2000 DPS. With 350 Haste rating, that same spell deals 2214 DPS. So in this case, each point in Haste rating gave you 0.71 DPS to your spell. This doesn't include latency but you see the point.
This is the problem I'm running into with the DnD spec. Despite my best efforts, it has dead time. Horn of Winter may provide 10 runic power but it's not an effective DPS ability by any stretch of the imagination. Dead time translates directly into DPS loss. It's that simple. Spell builds are much more sensitive to dead time because Haste is a much better stat for us than it is for them. With the aforementioned 350 Haste rating on Live, it increases DPS on spells by 10% if all GCDs are used (no dead time).
Some stats just don't help spell damage at all. Expertise, Armor Penetration, and Agility don't change spells at all. Melee abilities just don't get benefits from Haste except Scourge Strike which also gets nothing from Armor Penetration.
Point is, spells aren't scaling as well with haste in the DnD build as the previous build. Combined with the Gargoyle nerf, the Necrosis nerf, and all the nerfs heaped on previously, I am hitting a brick wall. I'm short. If I'm doing the math right, I failed. Close isn't good enough.
Hope I'm proven wrong. It's possible that I am screwing up, that other 2H builds aren't as good as I think, or that something will change to make it work. When you're doing this much math, it's easy to turn simple mistakes into big ones. But I'll go on the record as saying that using the current rotations, I expect DnD spec to come up short.
Good luck on your testing. I tried hard to make something work. I'm going to work on my character which desperately needs work. If I come up with a new idea, I'll post it in my thread. I'll continue to update it from time to time so check the OP on DW Unholy DPS Discussion if you are interested.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
What if you were to use improved unholy presence? Would the decreased rune CD help enough to fill in the dead time?
The problem I'm finding with imp unholy presence now is not the dead GCDs. Those can be filled with a high RP build. Unless I'm mistaken, unholy presence severely devalues haste as a stat. Once you remove that .5 sec from the GCD haste rating is only really affecting your white damage. This puts haste approximatley equal in value to expertise (haste nets more KM procs but expertise saves us lost time by not having to reuse a rune after a dodge).
With the way ulduar itemization is looking you are going to still have 2-3 secondary stats per item. If you assume you've already spell capped hit at 289 (assuming moonkin or shadow priest) then you are either forced to take gear with haste, expertise, armor pen or more hit. Looking at what's ulduar gear information is currently available I've found you will basically either cap expertise and/or pick up several hundred haste (or take hit to 368 so you don't need any outside buffs to be capped) just because.
The problem I'm finding with imp unholy presence now is not the dead GCDs. Those can be filled with a high RP build. Unless I'm mistaken, unholy presence severely devalues haste as a stat. Once you remove that .5 sec from the GCD haste rating is only really affecting your white damage. This puts haste approximatley equal in value to expertise (haste nets more KM procs but expertise saves us lost time by not having to reuse a rune after a dodge).
With the way ulduar itemization is looking you are going to still have 2-3 secondary stats per item. If you assume you've already spell capped hit at 289 (assuming moonkin or shadow priest) then you are either forced to take gear with haste, expertise, armor pen or more hit. Looking at what's ulduar gear information is currently available I've found you will basically either cap expertise and/or pick up several hundred haste (or take hit to 368 so you don't need any outside buffs to be capped) just because.
I think you're overvaluing the GCD reduction's contribution to damage. Sure, in a 3.0.8 HB build, there's a couple inflection points in your total spell haste at which you get an additional GCD in your rotation, which is extremely valuable, but I haven't seen a BP build that uses nearly as many spells or has as much RP as old HB/IT spam builds. Either you will be using DnD, which basically means you have plenty of GCDs; using a UF strike like SS, which still scales better than PS+IT, and doing a strike-heavy rotation nearly identical to a 2H build; or you will be in Unholy Presence.
Regardless, haste will have a 30% higher contribution to white damage than expertise or hit in 3.1, which is its main value. I suspect that, for a DnD build, expertise will be inferior to haste (though this is just a guess, with no actual numbers to back it up). For strike or UP builds, the numbers will probably be closer, but as with 2H builds I expect expertise to be better before cap.
Okay, to summarize where we're at with trying to uncover exactly where we're going with DW at the moment, this seems to be where we stand:
Pre 3.1: DW has excelled over 2H due to pet output benefiting from haste, from being able to fit more spell-based abilities into Blood Presence rotations than our 2H counterparts, and from being able to benefit from two Runeforges instead of one. In both the 0/32/39 and 0/20/51 builds this centered around IT as being a heavy hitting spammable spell. This was possible because of the relatively high base damage of IT and the sheer amount of talents available to strengthen it without needing to go very deep in either the Frost or Unholy trees. 0/32/39 was particularly competitive because of the multiple talent boosts and easy availability for HB.
Post 3.1: The core strength (IT) that allowed DW to be competitive has been effectively neutered, and all three trees have been rebalanced around their strike attacks. In order for DW to compete in the same way as before would require new spells to replace IT with and enough GCD usage to allow heavy haste builds to fit more heavy hitting abilities into our rotation than our 2H counterparts while remaining in BP.
Now if DND won't work as an IT replacement because it doesn't offer us a GCD advantage, I'm wondering if we can regain that advantage with HB and DC. Individually neither of those spells help since HB is on a cooldown controlled only by OB, which benefits 2H more than DW, and DC which is RP limited, and RP is best generated via a glyphed IT or by strikes, which again, at best a tie between 2H and DW, and at worst benefits 2H more than DW. However, I'm wondering if we replace FS spam with DC spam, we may be able to use haste within a deep frost build to gain a GCD advantage and limit our exposure to strikes.
Assumptions:
Build: 0/51/20.
Glyphs: HB (or possibly IT if having both diseases up proves better), OB, and Dark Death.
Runeforges: FC / CG.
Priority rotation for only maintaining FF: DC (at RP cap) > HB > OB > BS > DC.
Priority rotation for maintaining both diseases: DC (at RP cap) > IT (no FF) > HB > PS (no BP) > OB > BS > DC.
Ghoul is summoned with as many buffs as possible (FC/Trinkets), as often as possible.
Optimal scenario (which, albeit, is rare) would be where each OB procs Rime and enough RP is carried over from a previous rotation to maximize DC use. Worst case scenario is where there are little to no Rime procs and the additional haste results in dead GCDs.
This is untested (but I'll post numbers if I can get on the PTR tonight). Barring this being a competitive possibility, I think we may have to start accepting that our old way of competing via DW is dead, and that the conversation is going to start looking at how can we gear most effectively to compete using proven 2H builds based on our white damage scaling.
The only thing I'm thinking of is doesn't FS have better damage than DC? I thought it was like 1.5-2k DC 4k Crit or so and 1.75-2.5k FS, 4.5-6k Crit with 1 hand? Also you can fit more FS into a rotation if you have enough GCDs and RP. I'm just wondering about these aspects...
Also Pre-3.1 Benefits from more Necrosis, BCB, and White Damage.
The only thing I'm thinking of is doesn't FS have better damage than DC? I thought it was like 1.5-2k DC 4k Crit or so and 1.75-2.5k FS, 4.5-6k Crit with 1 hand? Also you can fit more FS into a rotation if you have enough GCDs and RP. I'm just wondering about these aspects...
You're absolutely correct, and that's the big question I'm hoping to answer with some testing. With this approach you're not comparing DC to FS on a 1-to-1 comparison, because FS wins no question if you look at it that way.
Rather, the question is: Is the damage output from DW being able to fit more HB+OB+DC into a Blood Presence rotation greater than the damage a 2H FS build can put out in HB+OB+FS? If the FS build requires Unholy Presence to use every Rime proc and every FS while DW can remain in Blood Presence without wasting an ability, then that's a large damage modifier in DW's favor. And if 2H CAN maintain that rotation in Blood Presence, then can DW squeeze out enough extra damage through hasted spell GCDs, hasted ghoul damage, white damage, Necrosis, and BCB to compensate for the lost damage? This is also assuming that with the Necrosis nerf and Master of Ghouls moving out of reach of anything but a deep Unholy build, that 2H frost is going to benefit more from subbing Blood than Unholy, costing DW a lot of AP but giving us a white damage/pet advantage in exchange.
It may very well be the case that there's too much RNG to make it at all reliable. It could be that the GCD timing even in the best case scenario for DW doesn't hold up. But it worked for us before with IT. It might work for us again and I'm determined to find out!
You're absolutely correct, and that's the big question I'm hoping to answer with some testing. With this approach you're not comparing DC to FS on a 1-to-1 comparison, because FS wins no question if you look at it that way.
Rather, the question is: Is the damage output from DW being able to fit more HB+OB+DC into a Blood Presence rotation greater than the damage a 2H FS build can put out in HB+OB+FS? If the FS build requires Unholy Presence to use every Rime proc and every FS while DW can remain in Blood Presence without wasting an ability, then that's a large damage modifier in DW's favor. And if 2H CAN maintain that rotation in Blood Presence, then can DW squeeze out enough extra damage through hasted spell GCDs, hasted ghoul damage, white damage, Necrosis, and BCB to compensate for the lost damage? This is also assuming that with the Necrosis nerf and Master of Ghouls moving out of reach of anything but a deep Unholy build, that 2H frost is going to benefit more from subbing Blood than Unholy, costing DW a lot of AP but giving us a white damage/pet advantage in exchange.
It may very well be the case that there's too much RNG to make it at all reliable. It could be that the GCD timing even in the best case scenario for DW doesn't hold up. But it worked for us before with IT. It might work for us again and I'm determined to find out!
So your trying to think that you can do more damage with a 10 sec rotation using DC than a 12 sec rotation using FS to put it very simply? I also think us losing a ghoul is going to be very drastic since we stack haste not only to improve white damage and GCDs but also Pets. But who knows, I just wish it was easy enough to find a DW build but as it is, Blizz got us working =3.
I've been seeing alot of talk about the 51/19+1 builds on this thread, but where's the talk about the 27/44 fast/fast build? Even tho we'd lose out on HB, wouldn't impurity, perma pet, UB, bone shield, etc. still b worth it? doesnt necrosis and bbc still work better with a fast/fast setup?
I've been seeing alot of talk about the 51/19+1 builds on this thread, but where's the talk about the 27/44 fast/fast build? Even tho we'd lose out on HB, wouldn't impurity, perma pet, UB, bone shield, etc. still b worth it? doesnt necrosis and bbc still work better with a fast/fast setup?
Necrosis is a flat percentage multiplier, it affects fast/slow/otherwise weapons all exactly the same. BCB is slightly better with fast weapons because it is normalized. Apart from that, there is no advantage to fast/fast.
I've been seeing alot of talk about the 51/19+1 builds on this thread, but where's the talk about the 27/44 fast/fast build? Even tho we'd lose out on HB, wouldn't impurity, perma pet, UB, bone shield, etc. still b worth it? doesnt necrosis and bbc still work better with a fast/fast setup?
We were only thinking of 27/44 when IT was still at it's live numbers, They nerfed it since then so we don't tend to look at IT spam builds. I thought Blizz had stated that if they saw IT spam builds succeeding that they would nerf it more, though I'm not positive, I just thought they said that somewhere...
So your trying to think that you can do more damage with a 10 sec rotation using DC than a 12 sec rotation using FS to put it very simply? I also think us losing a ghoul is going to be very drastic since we stack haste not only to improve white damage and GCDs but also Pets. But who knows, I just wish it was easy enough to find a DW build but as it is, Blizz got us working =3.
Well, plotting this out and assuming equal rotations:
2H: PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-OB-OB-OB-FS-FS-FS-FS (HoW and Butchery supplying RP for final FS)
DW: HB-PS-IT-BS-BS-HB-OB-DC-DC-DC
Worst case scenario for DW we have no Rime procs leaving 2H with 12 1.5s GCDs and DW with 11 1.5s GCDs over 20s, 2H dealing more damage with most, if not all, yellow attacks. 2H can keep 1 Rime proc assuming zero latency, but likely won't be able any Rime procs without delaying the next rotation by 1-4 GCDs. DW would be able to keep both Rime procs should they occur, with haste compensating for latency. But I doubt even extremely lucky Rime procs on their own will even out the disparity. So, as I said, other things that might play in our favor are: HB capitalizing on KM procs for multi-target fights; a potentially more potent combo of Runeforges; the fact that we'll have 70% up-time on a Ghoul which unless I'm mistaken, even as a temporary pet, receives an additional 40% of our Str/Stm and 100% of our Haste; and of course the ever-overrated DW white damage scaling + Necrosis + BCB.
Again, without actual numbers it's mostly guesswork, so it could really come down to being a pipe-dream.
Its build around the nerfed IT, and the key to just keep UB up aswell as GF and get as much IT in to put out another more DC's. Worked very well (for my equip status of course). Maybee this is viable or is the los of the damage from IT a too massiv "hole" ?
Its build around the nerfed IT, and the key to just keep UB up aswell as GF and get as much IT in to put out another more DC's. Worked very well (for my equip status of course). Maybee this is viable or is the los of the damage from IT a too massiv "hole" ?
Screenshot of Recount / Char stats
That DPS is not very good at all, even with your gear. You should be seeing at least 2.4k with a good spec considering your gear, if not more...
You also link a 0/51/20 Build, not a 0/30/41... I'm guessing you meant to post This...
yeah his spec issnt that great. i was tryin some specs earlier today and this was one of them.
thought you might be able to get some serious damage while spamming IT but the damage of IT in a 0-30-41
doesnt even come close to the IT damage from 10-10-51 or any other deep unholy spec.
edit: in a deep unholy build IT hits pretty hard. crits around 40% of the time (even without killing machine) and has an avarange damage of 2,5k(noncrit) and 4,8k(crit) wich was slighty less avarange damage then SS did.
Well, plotting this out and assuming equal rotations:
2H: PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-OB-OB-OB-FS-FS-FS-FS (HoW and Butchery supplying RP for final FS)
DW: HB-PS-IT-BS-BS-HB-OB-DC-DC-DC
Worst case scenario for DW we have no Rime procs leaving 2H with 12 1.5s GCDs and DW with 11 1.5s GCDs over 20s, 2H dealing more damage with most, if not all, yellow attacks. 2H can keep 1 Rime proc assuming zero latency, but likely won't be able any Rime procs without delaying the next rotation by 1-4 GCDs. DW would be able to keep both Rime procs should they occur, with haste compensating for latency. But I doubt even extremely lucky Rime procs on their own will even out the disparity. So, as I said, other things that might play in our favor are: HB capitalizing on KM procs for multi-target fights; a potentially more potent combo of Runeforges; the fact that we'll have 70% up-time on a Ghoul which unless I'm mistaken, even as a temporary pet, receives an additional 40% of our Str/Stm and 100% of our Haste; and of course the ever-overrated DW white damage scaling + Necrosis + BCB.
Again, without actual numbers it's mostly guesswork, so it could really come down to being a pipe-dream.
Nope, total garbage. Couldn't break 3,000. <sigh> Oh well.
EDIT: Guess I should describe the biggest reasons why it wasn't working. First, too reliant on RNG. HB was hitting anywhere from 3.5k to 9.5k depending on CG, KM, and FC procs. OB was more consistant but still only hitting between 2.5k to 5k. DC, even fully buffed and benefitting from CG and FC still only crested 5k on a crit once, and hit for around 2.5 otherwise. Even with Glyph of the Ghoul, NotD, and Ravenous Dead, it still didn't contribute very much overall damage, a 250 DPS best case. Like I expected, relying so much on procs was very hit and miss, but in the end resulted in being far more miss because you end up relying on everything to weave together, and it just doesn't. Even with the ghoul up I couldn't match what I could with the 10/10/51 build without a functioning ghoul or Gargoyle up.
Nope, total garbage. Couldn't break 3,000. <sigh> Oh well.
EDIT: Guess I should describe the biggest reasons why it wasn't working. First, too reliant on RNG. HB was hitting anywhere from 3.5k to 9.5k depending on CG, KM, and FC procs. OB was more consistant but still only hitting between 2.5k to 5k. DC, even fully buffed and benefitting from CG and FC still only crested 5k on a crit once, and hit for around 2.5 otherwise. Even with Glyph of the Ghoul, NotD, and Ravenous Dead, it still didn't contribute very much overall damage, a 250 DPS best case. Like I expected, relying so much on procs was very hit and miss, but in the end resulted in being far more miss because you end up relying on everything to weave together, and it just doesn't. Even with the ghoul up I couldn't match what I could with the 10/10/51 build without a functioning ghoul or Gargoyle up.
should be 2,5k avarange non crit and 4,5k avarange when criting.
Are you basing this off Live values or PTR values for that build. And if he were to be getting 2.5k non-crit, his crit should be more around 5k. There shouldn't really be any change unless there was a skill that somehow boosted non-crit damage but not crit damage.....
03/31/09, 3:04 PM
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