Over on my thread, we had this conversation already. Here's the verdict: you need to look at the differences in the specs and see what you lose/gain by changing to 0/27/44.
You lose 5/5 Rage of Rivendare. This is 5 Expertise and 10% to all abilities.
You lose 1/1 Gargoyle. Arguably the most powerful talent point in any tree that isn't a pet ghoul.
You lose 3/3 Wandering Plague. Take your melee critical % and multiply that by your disease damage.
You lose 2/2 Chill to the Grave. This is 5 runic power for every Icy Touch you use.
You lose 3/3 Annihilation. This is 3% melee critical for all melee abilities and the ability to use Obliterate freely.
You gain 5/5 Icy Talons. This does nothing in any group with a shaman. Gives you the ability to get Improved Icy Talons.
You gain 1/1 Improved Icy Talons. You gain 5% melee haste.
You gain 3/3 Glacial Rot: You gain 20% Frost damage for your Icy Touch. Unfortunately, it doesn't affect Frost Fever.
You gain 5/5 Killing Machine: You gain about 30-35% critical for your Icy Touchs.
So does 5% melee haste, 20% Icy Touch damage bonus, and a 35% critical bonus for Icy Touch replace 5 Expertise, 10% to all abilities, Gargoyle, 40% more disease damage, 15 runic power every 10 seconds, and 3% melee critical on all melee special abilities?
Short answer: No.
You are just discovering one of the problems of dummy testing: some builds get more from raid buffs than others. My build has a lot of physical damage which is mitigated by the high armor of the dummy. In the raid, I get sunder effects which reduce that armor by 24%. Your build gets 20% melee haste from Icy Talons when you attack the dummy that I do not. In a raid, I get that 20% melee haste for free from my shaman.
Here is the truth: in Improved Unholy Presence, which your build requires, Haste is a bad stat. Your build scales very poorly. Run it in a sim and look at your EP values. Now run it with my build and look at mine. Yeah, that's a huge difference.
It's this simple: Do your homework. We have already been there and done this. And found it wanting. Simple comparisons:
Is 5% melee haste better than Gargoyle. No.
Is 20% bonus to Icy Touch damage better than Wandering Plague. Nope.
Is a 35% increased critical for Icy Touch better than 5 Expertise and 10% to all abilities. Negative.
Is nothing better better than 15 runic power every ten seconds and 3% melee critical for special attacks. Of course not.
In a raid, you will do less damage. It's that simple. As a rule, I warn people in my thread that if you go higher than 35 points in Unholy, you should go straight to 51. The deep Unholy talents are extremely powerful.
There are three DW specs that have earned consideration: 0/17/54 IUP build built around Death Coil, 0/13/58 Blood built around Scourge Strike and Death Coil, and 0/18/53 Blood built around Obliterate and Death Coil.
All of them generate a ton of runic power. 0/17/54 generates the most. 0/18/53 generates the most in Blood Presence. 0/13/58 generates 6 runic power more than 2H Unholy every ten seconds.
What if your raid has plenty of Unholy DK(For EP) yet no consistent Enhance Shaman? Depending on raid, your statements all can be argued the other way. That deep Unholy brings a lot of things a DK tank may already be bringing.
A DC focused build that has no main attack but generates high amounts of RP used on UB and DC spam which also constantly keeps runes on CD and GF up does fairly well from everything that has been learned post patch. I would not knock it just yet.
If you lack an Enhance Shaman and a Frost Deathknight, you could use it as an emergency respec. It would deal less damage for the individual Deathknight to give more to the raid. But if that is the case, do you have a Blood Deathknight as well? If not, the emergency respec would be Blood/Frost to cover the 10% AP and the 20% Haste buff. But it should be an emergency and not the rule.
As for the power of generating runic power, that is what 0/17/54 does but it does better DPS than this spec. Check out my thread for maths, details, and a parse.
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I have been using this rotation IT,PS,OB,BS,HB,DC
And the glyphs I have been using are Obliterate Glyph, Howling Blast Glyph and Dark Death.
One of the things that I have been unsure of with DW, is what I should be gemming my gear with. I have read the previous posts and some say strength and some say haste gems. Also since 3.1 I was also wondering if for consumables if the haste food is still better than strength.
I have been DW with my DK since I got him to 78. And previous to 3.1 I was 32/39. I am running with Fast/Fast Widow's Fury in MH and Grasscutter in OH. I have Fallen Crusader on Widow's fury and Razorice on Grasscutter.
Prior to 3.1.1 I was adveraging 5kdps or better Wow Web Stats
after 3.1.1 my dps has dropped. I try to stay with the same rotation ps it SS bs bs UB then SS all the way to keep diseases up with deathcoils when I have the RP.
Should I change the spec around a bit? I feel I have the gear to keep the dps up but something is off since the patch. Also I dont have the armor pen to try out the ob spec. (I only have 35 armor pen)
Prior to 3.1.1 I was adveraging 5kdps or better Wow Web Stats
after 3.1.1 my dps has dropped. I try to stay with the same rotation ps it SS bs bs UB then SS all the way to keep diseases up with deathcoils when I have the RP.
Should I change the spec around a bit? I feel I have the gear to keep the dps up but something is off since the patch. Also I dont have the armor pen to try out the ob spec. (I only have 35 armor pen)
any suggestions?
Odd, I saw the same thing happen. I thought perhaps it was just me. I did very well on Deconstructor on the 1st night of 3.1, but when we went back on Tuesday things were broken bad. Since then I have just gone to 10/61 and equipped my 2h hoping that something changes soon.
Prior to 3.1.1 I was adveraging 5kdps or better Wow Web Stats
after 3.1.1 my dps has dropped. I try to stay with the same rotation ps it SS bs bs UB then SS all the way to keep diseases up with deathcoils when I have the RP.
Should I change the spec around a bit? I feel I have the gear to keep the dps up but something is off since the patch. Also I dont have the armor pen to try out the ob spec. (I only have 35 armor pen)
any suggestions?
Your highest damage is Damage from Living bomb, meaning you didn't move out and that damage was caused to your raid. That is BAD dps... That 220,500 damage you do to your party members is 1,422 DPS added which isn't part of you actual DPS... Also you don't have 4pT7...
I'm afraid you were right Origin. I will look into other specs. I overlooked the part about this spec in your thread because only one or 2 mentioned it, but when I looked back you indeed mentioned the weaknesses of this spec. I'll keep it in mind though in case my shaman didn't show up, and there's already a blood dk in the raid, because the fact is the personal dps of the spec I mentioned is not so bad, although it's badly scaled with gears and buffs. I would imagine that speccing into blood/frost for the buffs will be a huge dps loss because to cover both of those buffs we have to give up the pet, 3rd disease not to mention blood caked blade too.
I'm looking into 0/17/54, it's my new favourite. I'll start posting in your thread should I have a question, because seems like it doesn't belong here.
There is no current viable frost spec to my knowledge, because strapping on a 2h would make any frost spec deal more dps (unless no frost strike). Am I wrong?
I've been trying out 0/17/54 in IUP with slow(FC)/fast(RI) for a while now and I like it a lot, when I'm feeling energetic. I was quite surprised to put out a nice amount of dps on patchwerk even though it was a fairly long kill time(3:51 with under 21 for achievement naxx run) and I wasn't flasked.
Screenshot of recount is HERE. I forgot to combatlog it as it was just a night of goofing around.
I'm pretty determined to stay dual wielding as 2H although very nice, is a little slow for my taste. I enjoy the damage spam. I did notice looking over others wws report in this thread and I feel like my DC and IT damage are very low in comparison.
I've been trying out 0/17/54 in IUP with slow(FC)/fast(RI) for a while now and I like it a lot, when I'm feeling energetic. I was quite surprised to put out a nice amount of dps on patchwerk even though it was a fairly long kill time(3:51 with under 21 for achievement naxx run) and I wasn't flasked.
Screenshot of recount is HERE. I forgot to combatlog it as it was just a night of goofing around.
I'm pretty determined to stay dual wielding as 2H although very nice, is a little slow for my taste. I enjoy the damage spam. I did notice looking over others wws report in this thread and I feel like my DC and IT damage are very low in comparison.
how well does this stack up to 2h blood atm? o.O, and what sigil were u using?
I've been trying out 0/17/54 in IUP with slow(FC)/fast(RI) for a while now and I like it a lot, when I'm feeling energetic. I was quite surprised to put out a nice amount of dps on patchwerk even though it was a fairly long kill time(3:51 with under 21 for achievement naxx run) and I wasn't flasked.
Screenshot of recount is HERE. I forgot to combatlog it as it was just a night of goofing around.
I'm pretty determined to stay dual wielding as 2H although very nice, is a little slow for my taste. I enjoy the damage spam. I did notice looking over others wws report in this thread and I feel like my DC and IT damage are very low in comparison.
That seems very good. Can you give some info on your rotation, sigil, glyphs etc?
That seems very good. Can you give some info on your rotation, sigil, glyphs etc?
Glyphs can be viewed on armory;P
Of what i have digged up is:
Major - Icy Touch, Dark Death, Ghoul
Minor - Horn, Blood Tap, Raise Dead.
But I am also wondering what rotation are you (Qualms) using, and what sigil.
Can it be the one from Venture Co? It would fit with these talented boosts to Icy Touch.
needed to get used to the button smashing. but after a while it was ok.
Character can be viewed here. Armory
On a 1 HP Boss dummy i did 2k dps. (no self buffs other then weapon and trinket proc's)
Only feeling i had was that i had 2 much runic power so i kept having runes on cooldown.
If i spammed away DC then i had about 3 or 2 runes backup already. because of IUP.
i tried this rotation.
PS > BS > IT > DC > GF > IT > BS > DC
15 > 10 > 25 > 40 > 10 > 25 > 10 > 40 = 15 rp
note that this is already 8 spells and therefor your first rune is backup.
Second rotation doesnt need the GF so that gives even more rp.
And i dont have t7s4 (but you already noticed that)
so it think this spec can drop 2 points in "Chill of the Grave"
i also think you can drop 3 points from "Reaping", because you dont need the death runes to spam IT for the RP.
or am i missing something ?
i do acknowledge that i am only looking at rp generation. Would love some comment on this all
needed to get used to the button smashing. but after a while it was ok.
Character can be viewed here. Armory
On a 1 HP Boss dummy i did 2k dps. (no self buffs other then weapon and trinket proc's)
Only feeling i had was that i had 2 much runic power so i kept having runes on cooldown.
If i spammed away DC then i had about 3 or 2 runes backup already. because of IUP.
i tried this rotation.
PS > BS > IT > DC > GF > IT > BS > DC
15 > 10 > 25 > 40 > 10 > 25 > 10 > 40 = 15 rp
note that this is already 8 spells and therefor your first rune is backup.
Second rotation doesnt need the GF so that gives even more rp.
And i dont have t7s4 (but you already noticed that)
so it think this spec can drop 2 points in "Chill of the Grave"
i also think you can drop 3 points from "Reaping", because you dont need the death runes to spam IT for the RP.
or am i missing something ?
i do acknowledge that i am only looking at rp generation. Would love some comment on this all
I think you are confused, deeply so.
First off, for this spec 4piece tier 7 means nothing. You don't use the abilities it effects, at all. Period.
Next, you state that you want to maximize runic power generation, yet you think it is okay to dump chill of the grave?
This is what you need to do to play this spec:
Unholy presence (improved of course)
Basic rotation is:
PS IT BS DC GF IT BS DC
PS IT IT DC DC PS IT IT DC DC
With 2/2 chill of the grave, and the icy touch glyph you should be generating a whopping 25 runic power per icy touch. making it worth spamming. This is why you take reaping.
Now, even in unholy presence this build comes close to rune clipping. It takes some practice to maintain the rotation even on a non movement fight, keep practicing and remember when in doubt fall back to the priority, keep diseases up and fire a death coil if you can, else spam icy touch, else spam PS/BS.
There are other varients of unholy DW that do use FU dumps, and do benefit from 4piece t7, reference that thread for advice.
-I'd like to suggest that we let this thread die. The only competitive DW builds at the moment are deep unholy, and the other thread has become the hotspot for the quality posters regarding unholy DW builds.
When / If we get a frost DW tree we will be in a position to create a new thread. Until then I suggest we concentrate our efforts in the Unholy DW dps thread.
how well does this stack up to 2h blood atm? o.O, and what sigil were u using?
Currently depending on the fight, it's about 200 more dps than the blood spec I'm using, although I find it's a lot harder to maintain the dps than 2h specs in my opinion.
Originally Posted by Garaddon
But I am also wondering what rotation are you (Qualms) using, and what sigil.
Can it be the one from Venture Co? It would fit with these talented boosts to Icy Touch.
Glyphs and sigils are dd/it/ghoul and the IT sigil though I would replace with XT's DC sigil if it drops. I also use Undiminished Battleplate for DW to bring up my expertise to 24.
Basic rotation I use is
GF PS BT IT IT IT BS dump(ub/dc)
After which I prioritize dc > bt > it > ub > gf > bs > ps.
Also, dummy testing is extremely poor with any dw spec I've tried.
I am interested in trying a 0/29/42 build, or even deep unholy. With the high output of damage from Icy Touch and Deathcoil, is Cinderglacier worth it as an enchant at all... I assume it's PPM otherwise dualwield with 2 fasts enchanted with it would be a monster...
I am interested in trying a 0/29/42 build, or even deep unholy. With the high output of damage from Icy Touch and Deathcoil, is Cinderglacier worth it as an enchant at all... I assume it's PPM otherwise dualwield with 2 fasts enchanted with it would be a monster...
What's the general concensus, FC/RI, FC/CG?
CG was changed to proc per min in 3.1. /sad otherwise your right swinging some really fast weapons would be much nicer.
I've tried, and have a 0/27/44 on one of my two specs right now. The other is 0/53/18 which I am still testing. My gear isnt great and I dont often have the right schedule to raid with my guild... Though heroics can show some potential on how the build might work... if it cant perform in a 5-man it wont in raid for sure. Frost strike outperforms scourge strike with my gear. By far.
With the 27/44 my death coils were hitting hard. I didnt take dirge and am thinking about moving points into it so I can build RP faster and dump more death coils. I think that will increase my DPS. My abilities seem to be grouped two ways... +DPS icy touch/death coil and -DPS but set me up to do more DPS which are the strikes. PS to keep desicration going/make rp BS to make blood runes/rp. I tried both Unholy and Blood presence and do better in unholy. Quantity of Icy Touch/Death Coil beating out quality which is wy I think building RP faster will increase DPS.
The 53/18 I am still playing around with to see what I can do and how to make it perform Unholy or Blood etc.
Any constructive advise and sugestions would always be welcome
I played with a 51/8/12 for a while. It did well on heroics but dropped over 800 dps in vault. I dont think I could equip enough +hit and ArP at the same time. DRW also just didnt seem to perform well for anything other then BB spam on large groups.
I've been trying out 0/17/54 in IUP with slow(FC)/fast(RI) for a while now and I like it a lot, when I'm feeling energetic. I was quite surprised to put out a nice amount of dps on patchwerk even though it was a fairly long kill time(3:51 with under 21 for achievement naxx run) and I wasn't flasked.
Screenshot of recount is HERE. I forgot to combatlog it as it was just a night of goofing around.
I'm pretty determined to stay dual wielding as 2H although very nice, is a little slow for my taste. I enjoy the damage spam. I did notice looking over others wws report in this thread and I feel like my DC and IT damage are very low in comparison.
I just read this in the DW unholy discussion if your interested :p:
I know yours isn't an obliterate build.
"If you *are* going to continue to use RI, I would recommend it on the MH, as I believe the 2% damage as frost is calculated after the DW OH penalty (I haven't gone back and checked). I tried Cinderglacier, but found the proc rate to subjectively feel so low after the change as to seem useless. A nice bit of random burst when it does proc, but that's not what I'm looking for in PvE. Especially for an Oblit build I would highly recommend skipping Cinderglacier."
Last edited by Flamingsage : 04/30/09 at 10:34 PM.
Currently depending on the fight, it's about 200 more dps than the blood spec I'm using, although I find it's a lot harder to maintain the dps than 2h specs in my opinion.
Glyphs and sigils are dd/it/ghoul and the IT sigil though I would replace with XT's DC sigil if it drops. I also use Undiminished Battleplate for DW to bring up my expertise to 24.
Basic rotation I use is
GF PS BT IT IT IT BS dump(ub/dc)
After which I prioritize dc > bt > it > ub > gf > bs > ps.
Also, dummy testing is extremely poor with any dw spec I've tried.
Do you fight in blood presence or unholy presence?
Edit: Just ran some tests and I'm finding unholy presence to be much better!
Last edited by Flamingsage : 04/30/09 at 11:53 PM.
Quick question. Ive noticed that deep frost DW specs seem enticing because of all the extra HB and FS damage, but is there much of a dps change between that and a deep frost 2H spec? To me it seems the only benefit of DW in deep frost would be killing machine procs and a little more white damage, but FS would hit for less. Is it safe to say we can count out deep frost DW for now, or would it still do more damage then a DW spec that goes deep into unholy?
noko, I tried out the deep frost and it is just pitiful compared to a 2h build. I was putting out more DPS using a demise from 10 man naxx than I was using dual last laughs, as well as using the weapons I currently have equipped. I decided to go to DW unholy (0/13/58) although I am hearing some grumblings of a 44/0/27 blood + ghoul build, which I will be testing this week in 25 man.
Quick question. Ive noticed that deep frost DW specs seem enticing because of all the extra HB and FS damage, but is there much of a dps change between that and a deep frost 2H spec? To me it seems the only benefit of DW in deep frost would be killing machine procs and a little more white damage, but FS would hit for less. Is it safe to say we can count out deep frost DW for now, or would it still do more damage then a DW spec that goes deep into unholy?
Deep frost DW cannot be competive with 2 hander because:
Most of the damage source comes from strikes, which have very high scaling with weapon damages (60% from Frost Strike, 80% from Obliterate, not to mention damages modifier and crit modifier making the gap even bigger between DW & 2H). The superior in white damages scaling even with BCB and Necrosis cannot compensate for that. If you take as far as Necrosis and BCB then your dps will be lower anyway compared to other specs.
KM will proc slightly more but they will be wasted (Because there's not enough Howling Blast for all KM proc) on Icy Touch, which has very low scaling w/o Impurity, in addition the damages of Icy Touch is very very low now compared to what it's used to be.
No ghoul, which is the power of Unholy.
If you notice putting on 2H for any deep frost same spec you'll deal a lot more dps. So I suggest you go with 2H.
For more information on deep Unholy and theory about how and why it could be as good as 2H, see the other thread.
I am running a 0/13/54 Specc DW. Im pretty happy with it but im thinking about shifting 1 point into Ghoul Frenzy. I did not take it in the first place because of my laziness ^^. I thought, nah dont want another cd to be watched hehe. But i think if i shift one point out of Dirge and put it into Ghoul Frenzy it would put my DPS a little higher.
So is there a calculation on how much DPS Ghoul Frenzy is (I know the Ghoul scales with gear)? And is it really stronger than 2/2 Dirge if the Ghoul needs no heal? Another concern is, that it takes an unholy rune. So i think i do loose some Scourge Strikes out, or is that not the case?
I know thats a bunch of questions. ut hopefully i get some answers to them.
04/23/09, 10:40 PM
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