the wording is a little weird to me because it states it will deal approx half the damage of the main attack. Could this mean that the weapon damage of the offhand wouldn't matter meaning that a slower OH would be equal to a fast OH?
Doesn't the offhand hit for about 50% main hand damage with Nerves of Cold Steel? Assuming same weapon and AP and what not, of course.
Not at all. Nerves of Cold Steal increases OH damage by 15%... which is relatively useless, since none of the strikes utilize OH (they are all based off MH damage). So currently that 15% only affects white damage and consequently BCB and Necrosis. The proposed talent is a major buff for dw, making it viable again.
Not at all. Nerves of Cold Steal increases OH damage by 15%... which is relatively useless, since none of the strikes utilize OH (they are all based off MH damage). So currently that 15% only affects white damage and consequently BCB and Necrosis. The proposed talent is a major buff for dw, making it viable again.
I wouldn't say so. The patch note reads: Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike. (Doesn't say half the effect of the main hand)
It would make no sense that they only use MH to calculate DW strike damage, as that would mean that, for example, an upgrade in OH would only increase your white damage (apart from stats, obviously). What i read from that sentence is that all multipliers and static numbers will have half the effect, as in: 50% of weapon damage + X will convert to 25% weap + X/2, not considering the already halved offhand damage (for being an offhand). Both the % multiplier and the static addition would then be multiplied by 1.15, as they do, for example, in the interaction between Mutilate and Dual Wield specialization in the Rogue's case.
I wouldn't say so. The patch note reads: Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike. (Doesn't say half the effect of the main hand)
It would make no sense that they only use MH to calculate DW strike damage, as that would mean that, for example, an upgrade in OH would only increase your white damage (apart from stats, obviously)..
That's exactly what it means, yes, whether it makes sense to you or not. What I've stated isn't an opinion. It's a fact: at present strikes do not take into account OH damage. Furthermore, DKs are not rogues. White damage doesn't make up a large enough portion of our dps to give DW an advantage. Therefore, strikes is what matters. DW cannot use those as effectively as 2h specs, which is why it is behind - and why Blizzard is creating this new talent. I am not sure I understand what you're arguing with here.
I dunno, my read of it is that we are going to be slow/slow beasts. It seems to me that they would set it up same method as say a whirlwind (just not 360 degree and single target) etc, where the offhand hits as well. This would mean you end up with the same thing we ended up with warriors; where it became preferable to use slow/slow due to the attacks being calculated on each weapon's individual damage. It will be more pronounced for us however though, as we are strike based, not just thinking of it in terms of an ability on a 12s cd. I think we will basically be forced to. I don't see offhand necrosis or bcb on a fast weapon overcoming that, though I've been wrong before and will be again I'm sure, and have yet to see or do any math on it.
I dunno, my read of it is that we are going to be slow/slow beasts. It seems to me that they would set it up same method as say a whirlwind (just not 360 degree and single target) etc, where the offhand hits as well. This would mean you end up with the same thing we ended up with warriors; where it became preferable to use slow/slow due to the attacks being calculated on each weapon's individual damage. It will be more pronounced for us however though, as we are strike based, not just thinking of it in terms of an ability on a 12s cd. I think we will basically be forced to. I don't see offhand necrosis or bcb on a fast weapon overcoming that, though I've been wrong before and will be again I'm sure, and have yet to see or do any math on it.
The wording seems to clearly imply that the offhand strike is just a flavor element.. otherwise wouldn't they just say "hits with both weapons" instead of "hits for half again the original damage" ?
The wording seems to clearly imply that the offhand strike is just a flavor element.. otherwise wouldn't they just say "hits with both weapons" instead of "hits for half again the original damage" ?
The reason why they kept the wordings as such is because of the modifiers. DKs strike base upon modifiers largely (Deal X% plus C, and Y% for each disease you have on target) hence they would think that if leaving untouched, the dps boost for DW would be massive. Take a look at Unholy specs right now for instance, the maximum crit of Scourge Strike using 2H can reach somewhere around 11k, while the maximum crit of SS using 1H is 9k already. This is due to the large modifiers added into SS while only 45% base weapon damages are taken into the calculation of the damages. See DW Unholy Threads for more information regarding this. I would imagine if they allow the strikes to hit from both hands and same modifiers, it will bring the damages of strikes up by about 60% - 80% which is massive, while as they propose it right now, the damages can increase anywhere between 25% to 35% (after offhand penalty ofcourse), bringing DW strikes in line with its 2h counterpart.
I think the new change will make DK a distinguished DW-er, much different than warriors and rogues (all strikes abilities use DW, hence you can boast about being true DW-er while others still use several strikes with emphasis on main-hand - i'm unsure of shaman hehe). Yes slow/slow would be much favourable although because of the same reason stated above, slow offhand will give a small dps boost depending on what strikes you use, hence offhands with favorable stats and higher dps might be more valuable until you get an equivalent but with slow speed.
That's exactly what it means, yes, whether it makes sense to you or not. What I've stated isn't an opinion. It's a fact: at present strikes do not take into account OH damage. Furthermore, DKs are not rogues. White damage doesn't make up a large enough portion of our dps to give DW an advantage. Therefore, strikes is what matters. DW cannot use those as effectively as 2h specs, which is why it is behind - and why Blizzard is creating this new talent. I am not sure I understand what you're arguing with here.
Hmm, rereading this again, it looks like I skipped the word "current" in your post. All my arguing was made talking about the new talent making strikes use both weapons. Then, what I meant was that NoCS will affect both the white damage, % multiplier and static bonus, they way it does with the only skill with static damage that hits with two weapons (Mutilate). Anyway, this had been probably already said.
Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.
This is the exact wording from the blue post.
When reading it carefully you will see that it says: when dual wielding, abilities xyz will also deal dmg WITH your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike. This sentence in bold is merely a statement about how dual wielding works, not specifically how this talent works. What it means is that when you equip a weapon in the off-hand slot, it tends to be at 50% of its original strength. This allows it to catch up to fighting with a 2hander.
So what this means is that you click blood strike and it will go:
x% of MH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg1
x% of OH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg2
dmg1+dmg2 = dmgT
This talent does not mean that you will now get this:
(x% of MH weapon dmg + y% per disease)*1.5 = dmgT
My understanding is that you are not getting an extra half dmg attack for free, you are getting an attack out of your off hand that adds to your Strike's dmg. Because DK's are almost entirely "strike" based, allowing the OH to strike as well just makes sense. If it were not based off of your OH weapon you could simply put a ilevel1 dagger there and be done with it. Yes you would lose a very small portion of your overall dmg through white attacks, but hopefully you get what i mean.
So the weapon that gets put into your OH matters. If its a fast attacking weapon you are most likely going to hurt your strike dmg, so you will go for a slower OH weapon with equal dps so that the (weapon dmg) portion of every strike is stronger.
This is not aimed at anyone in particular, im only trying to bring some clarity to the discussion so that it can move towards the real things that matter. Like number crunching or whatever.
When reading it carefully you will see that it says: when dual wielding, abilities xyz will also deal dmg WITH your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike. This sentence in bold is merely a statement about how dual wielding works, not specifically how this talent works. What it means is that when you equip a weapon in the off-hand slot, it tends to be at 50% of its original strength. This allows it to catch up to fighting with a 2hander.
So what this means is that you click blood strike and it will go:
x% of MH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg1
x% of OH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg2
dmg1+dmg2 = dmgT
This talent does not mean that you will now get this:
(x% of MH weapon dmg + y% per disease)*1.5 = dmgT
My understanding is that you are not getting an extra half dmg attack for free, you are getting an attack out of your off hand that adds to your Strike's dmg. Because DK's are almost entirely "strike" based, allowing the OH to strike as well just makes sense. If it were not based off of your OH weapon you could simply put a ilevel1 dagger there and be done with it. Yes you would lose a very small portion of your overall dmg through white attacks, but hopefully you get what i mean.
So the weapon that gets put into your OH matters. If its a fast attacking weapon you are most likely going to hurt your strike dmg, so you will go for a slower OH weapon with equal dps so that the (weapon dmg) portion of every strike is stronger.
This is not aimed at anyone in particular, im only trying to bring some clarity to the discussion so that it can move towards the real things that matter. Like number crunching or whatever.
The way i'm reading the talent and how i would think they mean it is like this:
x% of MH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg1
x% of OH weapon dmg + y% per disease = dmg2
dmg1 + (dmg2 * 0.5) = dmgT
The offhand gets the half dmg modifier while mainhand gets the full dmg. So glyphed oblit would do 100% MH + disease modifier + 50% OH + 50% disease modifier. But will it be 1 swing with both hits added together or will it be two hits at the same time? And if it's 2 hits at the same time, does that mean 1 can hit and the other be dodge/blocked/parried?
Last edited by TexasSnyper : 06/19/09 at 11:06 AM.
The way i'm reading the talent and how i would think they mean it is like this:
But will it be 1 swing with both hits added together or will it be two hits at the same time? And if it's 2 hits at the same time, does that mean 1 can hit and the other be dodge/blocked/parried?
I would wager to say that it will work the exact same as a warrior Whirlwind and be ONE strike using both weapon. So on a single roll.
I don't post here often, but I had a thought that might be worth discussing in regards to the new dual wield talent.
The talent includes Blood strike but not Heart strike, though the Blood Strike change will be bringing it up to a comparable level. One thing I beg to question is whether the dual strikes caused by Threat of Thassarian will count as two hits for purposes of Sudden Doom (and I suppose also Rime in the case of Obliterate, as a branching topic). I haven't seen this mentioned yet. If this is true, I am curious if a spec including Threat (assuming it is low in the frost tree like Nerves of Cold Steel), Sudden Doom, and the new Unholy Blight (but only barely), could lead to a very high throughput for Death coil damage.
The main downfall of this idea would be the lack of a spec capping 5 pointer or bonus crit damage talent (as they are barely out of reach). If anyone more math savvy than I feels up to it, we might want to consider the numbers behind doubling the chances to proc Sudden Doom, and therefore possibility that a Blood-based dual wield spec may be viable. We won't be able to experiment thoroughly until we actually have the talent to work with, but I think that getting the thought out there and considering its usage is important.
I am normally Frost spec, and napkin math appears to be showing that the new dual wielding option might be better on the whole, so I am greatly interested in what other changes it might bring.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet. If this is true, I am curious if a spec including Threat (assuming it is low in the frost tree like Nerves of Cold Steel), Sudden Doom, and the new Unholy Blight (but only barely), could lead to a very high throughput for Death coil damage.
This is a pretty big assumption. The fact that it includes FS yet omits both SS and HS would imply (to me at least) that it's a deep frost talent. Keep in mind that BotN was just decreased in talent points leaving only four points in that tier, which would make that the likely choice for this talent, if not higher. Also keep in mind their stated goal for this patch was to make a single tree the DW tree, so I doubt they would make the defining DW talent something easily available to all specs such as NoCS.
This is a pretty big assumption. The fact that it includes FS yet omits both SS and HS would imply (to me at least) that it's a deep frost talent. Keep in mind that BotN was just decreased in talent points leaving only four points in that tier, which would make that the likely choice for this talent, if not higher. Also keep in mind their stated goal for this patch was to make a single tree the DW tree, so I doubt they would make the defining DW talent something easily available to all specs such as NoCS.
Ah that's very true. I hadn't thought of it that way. The main thing that caught my eye originally was the idea of obliterate getting twice the chances to proc Rime, and how that would effect the value of Freezing Fog in general. This thought lead me to contemplate Sudden Doom, which is what brought me here to question the whole idea of it counting as two separate hits.
Whirlwind and Stormstrike both preform dual attacks, but I'm not too savvy on these particular classes in recent times. Someone above mentioned "both hit or both avoided" properties of Whirlwind. Do either of these classes have anything to compare Rime to?
This is a pretty big assumption. The fact that it includes FS yet omits both SS and HS would imply (to me at least) that it's a deep frost talent. Keep in mind that BotN was just decreased in talent points leaving only four points in that tier, which would make that the likely choice for this talent, if not higher. Also keep in mind their stated goal for this patch was to make a single tree the DW tree, so I doubt they would make the defining DW talent something easily available to all specs such as NoCS.
Blizzard basically doesn't have a choice other than making a single tree the DW tree. It's already extremely difficult to tune the three trees for 2H such that they do comparable DPS; adding a DW-option to each that does comparable DPS is almost impossible due to how differently DW and 2H damage compositions look. I agree, that the BotN tier is the most likely choice for the new talent, adding that any tier below 5 wouldn't work, since that would allow for Frost DW-subspecs (E.g.: Take 20 points in Frost and spend the rest in Unholy, getting a third disease for powered 25-RP-Obliterates, Ghoul, Gargoyle, and other stuff).
The power of Tundra Stalker also limits the abilities of Frost to subspec into other trees, limiting the chance for potential unforeseen hybrid-specs. There is simply no alternative to making ToT a deep-Frost talent unless Blizzard is eager to go through all the DW-hybrid-spec-mess at the beginning of WotLK once more.
Ah that's very true. I hadn't thought of it that way. The main thing that caught my eye originally was the idea of obliterate getting twice the chances to proc Rime, and how that would effect the value of Freezing Fog in general. This thought lead me to contemplate Sudden Doom, which is what brought me here to question the whole idea of it counting as two separate hits.
Whirlwind and Stormstrike both preform dual attacks, but I'm not too savvy on these particular classes in recent times. Someone above mentioned "both hit or both avoided" properties of Whirlwind. Do either of these classes have anything to compare Rime to?
Rime somewhat and moreso Killing Machine could be compared to Enh Shammies, who have Maelstrom Weapons and Windfury procs...
It seems fair to me that the DW DK is compared to an Enh Shammy, as both are "battle mage" type classes. There's a lot of arguing here about how the talent will work, and sadly as it's been stated, we won't know until the PTR is available. It seems fairly clear that Slow/Slow will be preferred to Slow/Fast if OH damage is taken in to account, but if I may be so bold, why is Slow/Fast assumed to be better if OH damage isn't taken into account. Would it be Runeforging? Because it seems to me that weapon DPS would be the determining factor if OH damage doesn't directly impact OH Strikes.
why is Slow/Fast assumed to be better if OH damage isn't taken into account. Would it be Runeforging? Because it seems to me that weapon DPS would be the determining factor if OH damage doesn't directly impact OH Strikes.
OH Strikes proc BCB that use MH damage. Also faster weapons once increased the number of KM procs per minute, although I'm not sure if this is still the case.
OH Strikes proc BCB that use MH damage. Also faster weapons once increased the number of KM procs per minute, although I'm not sure if this is still the case.
For KM now, its haste since KM is PPM. UH presence, WF/icy talons and haste rating will increase your KM procs but a faster weapon will not. And didnt they change BCB to proc off MH only a couple patches ago? Either that or have OH procs use the OH weapon?
There is simply no alternative to making ToT a deep-Frost talent unless Blizzard is eager to go through all the DW-hybrid-spec-mess at the beginning of WotLK once more.
I am not so sure hybrid specs were really the issue in themselves. They had a problem with hybrid specs relying on the (unintended)synergy of Impurity and IT/HB which lead to a play style they didn't care for; in other words, hybrid specs that would get the best of both worlds and outpace everything else. The way the trees are arranged now doesn't allow for such cherry picking. So while it does look like Frost is indeed intended to be the sole DW tree, given the choice of strikes which would benefit from the new talent, I wouldn't be surprised if the talent itself was placed in the upper half of the tree, somewhere near the already existing one, or even possibly replacing it.
My point was that ToT in the early tiers allows the other trees to subspec into Frost and basically give each tree DW-potential. Balancing that and 3 2H-specs is still as impossible now as it was then.
BCB procs will use OH weapon damage now, that is correct. However, last I checked the attack was normalized, which meant that fast weapons were at an advantage (due to more hits being generated).
My point was that ToT in the early tiers allows the other trees to subspec into Frost and basically give each tree DW-potential. Balancing that and 3 2H-specs is still as impossible now as it was then.
I understand. What I am saying is that unless ToT is made to affect HS and/or SS, there's no particular benefit for dw in going deep into Blood or Unholy, any more than there is now.
I understand. What I am saying is that unless ToT is made to affect HS and/or SS, there's no particular benefit for dw in going deep into Blood or Unholy than there is now.
At least for an Unholy mainspec, Obliterate might be a valid substitute for SS. However, there's not much point to discussing that before PTRs are up and actual testing can begin.
At least for an Unholy mainspec, Obliterate might be a valid substitute for SS. However, there's not much point to discussing that before PTRs are up and actual testing can begin.
What would be the point of using an Unholy mainspec and then not using your 41pt talent? The entire tree is built around getting large SS hits, so forgoing that is almost certainly a DPS loss.
06/18/09, 7:52 PM
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