What would be the point of using an Unholy mainspec and then not using your 41pt talent? The entire tree is built around getting large SS hits, so forgoing that is almost certainly a DPS loss.
The point is that Obliterate actually scales really well with 3 diseases and the modifiers in the unholy tree. One of the 3 main hypothesized Dual Wield builds (post 3.1) was built on this concept.
The idea was that with enough ArP, Ob would actually overtake SS.
It did not quite pan out well because to stack enough ArP to make that happen, other stats would suffer and it was not really a significant increase given current gear.
However, if OB is affected by ToT, but SS is not, a DW unholy build using OB might pull ahead based on superior white damage scaling (and related damage) and a main strike that can hit for numbers around the same general area.
The point is that Obliterate actually scales really well with 3 diseases and the modifiers in the unholy tree. One of the 3 main hypothesized Dual Wield builds (post 3.1) was built on this concept.
The idea was that with enough ArP, Ob would actually overtake SS.
It did not quite pan out well because to stack enough ArP to make that happen, other stats would suffer and it was not really a significant increase given current gear.
However, if OB is affected by ToT, but SS is not, a DW unholy build using OB might pull ahead based on superior white damage scaling (and related damage) and a main strike that can hit for numbers around the same general area.
Of course, all this is conjecture.
I can't imagine ToT and EPB being acquirable in the same build. GC's already basically said as much that ToT will be a Frost-spec only thing because they don't want to try and balance DW for more than one tree. I took from that ToT will be pretty deep into Frost.
You're right, I should have read it more carefully. No HS. It does seem like Frost would be the tree of choice for dw, then.
Think the new talent might just be put in place of the old one?
If the posted change to blood strike is not an error, then I see a blood or blood/frost build being somewhat viable. Heart strike is great, but not unique in using 1 blood rune. Even with my 2-h blood build blood strike never hits hard (like when I hit it by mistake) so I see the buff being possibly.
I tried to log onto the PTR today with no luck. I wanted to see the new trees. Guess they are not yet ready for prime time.
After posting this I got very curious. So I went and beat up that poor test dummy a bit. The one in the middle so I was fairly sure I was hitting just one target with heart strike.
I switched back and forth between using heart and blood.
Heart Strike Blood Strike
N = 26, 25
Ave Hit 1815, 1531
Ave Crit 4602, 3891
Crit % 26.9, 32.0
Total Dam 64891, 55615
Guess it hits harder then I remember. Still not as hard as blood strike (at least as my blood build is talented) and not (when applicable) two targets.
The other thought I had on consideration is that right now, with diseases blood strike hits for 125% for blood/frost and 137.5% for unholy. If +50% is correct changing that to 200% and 250% that would be very over powering. I wonder if the poster meant to say that blood strike would now be at +50% rather than +25%? A significant but not uber change.
Sorry the spacing for the chart I typed out seems to have been striped
Okay, I've been thinking very generally about the future of Frost DPS (no real math) and I was wondering what you guys thought about these concerns:
- Pre-3.1, DW was all about spell damage and white damage. So Necrosis and BCB were must-haves. Popular builds basically were divided between getting a third disease in deep-Unholy in order to buff strikes and BCB, and going deep-Frost for Howling Blast to give us better spell damage options. In 3.2, will it still be a good idea to get BCB? Or will Blood be the new sister tree?
- With the faster melee attack speeds that one-handed weapons bring, and the number of specials we have that proc from attacks, I assume Unholy Presence is probably still going to be the better overall. We should have better effect uptime than in Blood Presence, right? Or are there enough internal CDs on these that it doesn't matter?
- Related to the above, and especially with what we know about the the DW Talent, what are our weapons going to be like? I think pre-3.1 we were supposed to optimise our BCB procs and strike damage with Slow/Fast. Now that 50% of our off-hand contributes to our strikes, does this mean that Slow/Slow is the new bee's-knees?
- Also, in general, will those tanking weapons with strength on them be a better choice for DPS even though they have defense on them? Or is the over-itemisation of agility still not so bad that agility+AP weapons are still Blizzard's intended choice for us?
The tanking weapons will not be good for DPS. Last Laugh used to be good only because it had the highest DPS of any 1-hander and fast/fast was viable (if not ideal). Neither of those facts will be true with the Ulduar tank weapons.
Edit: As has been noted in this thread, ghostcrawler stated they intented to only bring DW back as a possability for one tree. It should be assumed at the moment that Frost will be the only viable DW tree. As for Blood or Unholy sub-spec, thats probably will not be know until live testing (my guess though is 3 in blood, the rest unholy).
Okay, I've been thinking very generally about the future of Frost DPS (no real math) and I was wondering what you guys thought about these concerns:
- Pre-3.1, DW was all about spell damage and white damage. So Necrosis and BCB were must-haves. Popular builds basically were divided between getting a third disease in deep-Unholy in order to buff strikes and BCB, and going deep-Frost for Howling Blast to give us better spell damage options. In 3.2, will it still be a good idea to get BCB? Or will Blood be the new sister tree?
- With the faster melee attack speeds that one-handed weapons bring, and the number of specials we have that proc from attacks, I assume Unholy Presence is probably still going to be the better overall. We should have better effect uptime than in Blood Presence, right? Or are there enough internal CDs on these that it doesn't matter?
- Related to the above, and especially with what we know about the the DW Talent, what are our weapons going to be like? I think pre-3.1 we were supposed to optimise our BCB procs and strike damage with Slow/Fast. Now that 50% of our off-hand contributes to our strikes, does this mean that Slow/Slow is the new bee's-knees?
- Also, in general, will those tanking weapons with strength on them be a better choice for DPS even though they have defense on them? Or is the over-itemisation of agility still not so bad that agility+AP weapons are still Blizzard's intended choice for us?
#1 It depends really. Yes the old DW build was all about spell damages, white damages, Necrosis & BCB however they got "best of both world" which is Beefed up Icy Touch, Howling Blast & Impurity, Gargoyle. They are the main reason why the scaling of old DW build was so high, and it beats out any weapon damage-based build (I.E. 2 handers). For the new builds (assume Frost), I would imagine there would be variation of blood/frost or frost/unholy builds. I would say that for Blood/Frost, you gain damage boost for all your strikes (9% crit for Obliterate, AP from Bladed Armor, 5% crit and 2AP/s), while if you go Frost/Unholy, you get significantly stronger white damages (with boosts from Necrosis & BCB), slightly stronger plague strike, 3% strength, slightly stronger ghoul when used as cooldown and longer diseases tick while you can probably retain up to 6% of Obliterate crit from blood tree. Depending on how they scale then you can decide which one to choose from. This is just speculation because talents may change later because 3.2 needs a lot of testings before it could go live.
#2 It doesn't matter which presence you use. If you're talking about FC proc, then it will cover up to 180% uptime even if you are in blood presence. If you're talking about BCB then it will deal the same damages regardless because of 15% damage boost vs 15% speed boost gives approx. same result for BCB. You should use blood presence if you can make use of all the runes, if you use UH presence and leave runes up to cooldown then your dps will be lower for sure.
#3 Yes Slow/Slow is the way to go even if you have BCB. The dps loss in BCB will quickly be made up by other strikes. However IMO you won't lose much dps if you use Slow/Fast. I could be wrong though.
#4 Depends. The only reason why we picked tank weapons was because 1. We didn't have to care about damages because most of our dmgs come from spells and 2. the tank weapons have higher dps (there was none of the 1h which could reach that iLevel). Depending on the stats of the tank item, it may or may not be an upgrade over the dps 1h. In addition, if you have a tank weapon at all, use it on Offhand since you won't lose out much dps by using a fast offhand. On main hand you should always use a slow weapon because it will reduce your dps significantly otherwise.
Just speculation. Once 3.2 PTR comes out much of these will be confirmed.
One thing I've been thinking about lately (obviously just speculation because there are no talent trees yet) is 0/17/54 in 3.2 with the unholy blight change. It seems like with unholy blight increasing death coil damage if people still wanted to play UH dual wield that this could be a viable option, or possibly even better than it is now. Whether or not it will compare to dual wield frost? I guess we'll have to wait until the PTRs are out to see.
I would like to submit for discussion the idea that the current 0/17/54 DW spec, which is discussed in the unholy DW thread might still be the clear winner in 3.2. Now, of course this is all speculation, but since this thread isn't being used as an active theorycrafting spot, we may as well use it for future DW discussion.
That's my most recent Ignis kill, lets see what percentage of my damage comes from strikes
Plague Strike 3% 46,258
Blood strike 2% 25,167
vs
Death Coil 21% 300,484
Now, with the addition of the new unholy blight, which I can pick up at the opportunity cost of one point in Desecration (would be desolation in 3.2.) A build that generates 21% of its damage through death coil should see quite the returns on the new unholy blight.
I can't see ToT putting frost ahead of 0/17/54 DW, unless further changes are made.
So with the introduction of ToT and the reduction in points to BotN...if they switched Morbidity and Outbreak in the Unholy Tree you could have a really nice 44/27 spec that would play to pretty much every strength of a DW DK... Oh, if only, if only.
These are the builds that I've been thinking about.
0/53/18 - Obliterate - Obviously it's not complete as the Trees are incomplete. This would be a build using Obliterate as the main nuke. This build will take advantage of all four strikes to be associated with ToT.
0/53/18 - HB variant - Minus the point in Annihilation and put into ToT. HB would be the obvious nuke.
0/13/58 - A current Unholy DW build - A current variant for DW DPS. While it is a good spec, I don't see it keeping up with the double strikes to be had from ToT. Even with the new UB.
Blood relies too heavily on Strike damage to become viable and with ToT's eluded deep frost position, good Blood talents are out of reach. Also, DW will still rely rather heavily on Necrosis and BCB in my opinion.
Because the new ToT talent will allow frost to stay extremely strike-heavy, I'm curious about the possibility of having Fallen crusader and Razorice for runeforges rather than the currently popular FC/FC.
I would assume even with the faster 1 hand weapons, a strike heavy build in frost with a 2.6 speed mainhand would still maintain 60%+ uptime on fallen crusader. If this gives us the opportunity of having a second runeforge without too significant of a loss to FC uptime, it could turn into a very significant DPS increase.
I've posted estimate numbers based on my own weapons in the frost forum comparing a 2 handed strike to dual wielding slow/fast weapons, but the possibility of razorice hadn't crossed my mind previously, and could put the damage from frost-based abilities seriously in favour of dual wielding over 2h frost.
Also, DW will still rely rather heavily on Necrosis and BCB in my opinion.
I wouldn't make a call like this until the PTRs are active. The reason dual wield needs to rely on BCB and necrosis is because due to our weaker strikes at the moment we need a far larger emphasis on autoattack damage (and the related talents). It is quite possible that when our strikes hit with both weapons the melee damage alone will be enough, and that exchanging the obliterate crit % from Subversion, attack power from Bladed Armor, and overall crit % from Dark Conviction for Necrosis and BCB would be a loss in DPS. Only time will tell I guess and we'll have to wait until the PTRs are live to find out.
The main advantages of going into the Unholy tree are Virulence and Epidemic. Both are staples in any serious DK's spec for obvious reasons. While 3% hit in a soon to be strike heavy build is negligible at best, assuming you've reached the current 8% hit cap of course, missing 3 or 4 ITs in a row can be detrimental to DPS. Epidemic is pretty much self-explanatory. Diseases falling off mid rotation is a DPS loss no matter what.
Taking both of these into account, a Frost/Blood spec would be at a disadvantage to a spec that included these two talents.
If Necrosis and BCB do indeed prove to be negligible come 3.2 then a build like this would be a more viable option than any other variant.
I can't see ToT putting frost ahead of 0/17/54 DW, unless further changes are made.
With the new change to ToT, frost gains/losses the following compared to 2H frost currently:
- The strikes are much better, more or less the damages will be on the same line with frost 2h currently.
- Rune of Razorice and Rune of Fallen Crusader can be put in both hands yet the uptime of Rune of Fallen Crusader is still very reliable.
- Killing Machine is weaker compared to 2H because of lower proc rate (lower % on instant strikes), it only procs off main-hand damages. If it does for offhand as well, this talent will be very overpowered. *Edit: I just realized some posts suggested that KM only proc off auto-attacks. Therefore DW only losses out to 2H because of miss-chance (DW has much higher hit cap than 2H).*
- Changing from 2H into DW, the white damages will raise massively.
From the gains/losses above, we can see that DW frost will possibly gain at least a bit of advantage over the current frost 2H. Also, considering Frost 2H is currently a competitive spec, DW Frost will be very competitive in future patch as well.
There are still millions of possible changes they could implement though. I am sure Blizzard won't let DW Unholy to overpower DW Frost that easily. If their new changes won't get attentions, then they will kill just about everything else to make it more noticeable. In addition to that, DW Unholy (even 0/17/54) spec is still currently considered the "weaker" spec of all available DW and 2H specs. If new DW Frost is weaker to that, I can't imagine how new changes can do anything good.
Last edited by Syrellia : 06/21/09 at 9:02 PM.
Reason: Added some speculations regarding KM proc.
There are still millions of possible changes they could implement though. I am sure Blizzard won't let DW Unholy to overpower DW Frost that easily. If their new changes won't get attentions, then they will kill just about everything else to make it more noticeable. In addition to that, DW Unholy (even 0/17/54) spec is still currently considered the "weaker" spec of all available DW and 2H specs. If new DW Frost is weaker to that, I can't imagine how new changes can do anything good.
I'm not sure what you are basing your information on, but 0/17/54 DW is currently the highest single target DW spec, as seen on the "in thread" dps meters located in the Unholy DW thread. Furthermore, I don't think we need to start a debate on which spec is "considered" to be the "weaker" of the various options deathknights have.
The point of my above post is to show that currently, unholy DW is easily keeping pace if not outpacing other builds in single target dps. What we have in 3.2. is a straight up buff to this spec, with absolutely none of the listed patch notes reducing its damage whatsoever.
0/17/54 gains:
1. Gargoyle will cost less, this will free up Runic power for death coil.
2. Desolation will not suffer from movement as desecration did.
3. New Unholy blight, Looks to be a 6-7% dps increase as the talent is worded now.
Loses nothing.
All of the two handed builds are seeing a nerf in some form it seems. This build is currently keeping pace, and is receiving buffs while all other specs are getting a bit of a nerf. It easily stands to reason that 0/17/54 could be the top dps spec in 3.2.
The main advantages of going into the Unholy tree are Virulence and Epidemic. Both are staples in any serious DK's spec for obvious reasons. While 3% hit in a soon to be strike heavy build is negligible at best, assuming you've reached the current 8% hit cap of course, missing 3 or 4 ITs in a row can be detrimental to DPS. Epidemic is pretty much self-explanatory. Diseases falling off mid rotation is a DPS loss no matter what.
Taking both of these into account, a Frost/Blood spec would be at a disadvantage to a spec that included these two talents.
If Necrosis and BCB do indeed prove to be negligible come 3.2 then a build like this would be a more viable option than any other variant.
That's true in the case of a two disease strike heavy build but I guess the main point I was making is that nobody knows how the DPS rotation or spec will look until the PTRs are live. For instance, one of the high performing 2h frost DPS specs at the moment is the 20/51/0 6xIT unholy presence spec and rotation with [Sigil of the Vengeful Heart], maybe the rotation will still look like that even dual wielding with ToT in which case a blood sub would still be better. We can't know yet though, So all these theoretical builds created on current talent calculators are pointless until we can get on the PTRs and run actual tests.
Last edited by Themallet : 06/21/09 at 11:04 PM.
Reason: Edited for clarity.
I'm not sure what you are basing your information on, but 0/17/54 DW is currently the highest single target DW spec, as seen on the "in thread" dps meters located in the Unholy DW thread.
Being the highest dps DW spec really means little since DW is still way behind any reasonable 2h spec - and 17/54 is sure as hell not outpacing anything except the other DW variants. People who are sticking to DW at present are doing so for the enjoyment factor or whatever other personal reasons that make it worthwhile for them to give up part of their (potential) dps. And that's all fine and good as far as it goes, but it doesn't make the spec a serious contender overall.
And no, 2h Blood and Unholy aren't being nerfed. Both are seeing some changes but so far these are not netting a (noticeable) DPS loss to either.
Being the highest dps DW spec really means little since DW is still way behind any reasonable 2h spec - and 17/54 is sure as hell not outpacing anything except the other DW variants. People who are sticking to DW at present are doing so for the enjoyment factor or whatever other personal reasons that make it worthwhile for them to give up part of their (potential) dps. And that's all fine and good as far as it goes, but it doesn't make the spec a serious contender overall.
Direheart, there is no reason to get into a pissing match here, I'll just say this. 6300+ dps on a single target non gimick fight is damm well competitive, don't delude yourself with parses with massive AOE. I didn't come here for this type of discussion, I came here to point out that the current DW build might just do better than the new frost one with ToT.
The parse was posted for the simple reason to show that DW doesn't need strike damage to remain competitive, which as I said, it is. You are more than entitled to your opinion if you don't think DW can currently compete in endgame, however, I don't think that we need to get into that sort of a useless argument in this thread.
Being the highest dps DW spec really means little since DW is still way behind any reasonable 2h spec - and 17/54 is sure as hell not outpacing anything except the other DW variants. People who are sticking to DW at present are doing so for the enjoyment factor or whatever other personal reasons that make it worthwhile for them to give up part of their (potential) dps. And that's all fine and good as far as it goes, but it doesn't make the spec a serious contender overall.
And no, 2h Blood and Unholy aren't being nerfed. Both are seeing some changes but so far these are not netting a (noticeable) DPS loss to either.
What you're saying here is a "considered fact" which is not proven by any means. Just because many people use 2h specs hence they will be the most to show on any DPS meter at all.
@Fargom: If you read thread closely you'll notice many different arguments. Sure as hell you can top the meter but so what? You do realize your gears are far more ideal than the others who did the post right? - Look at Panda (Kyruski), his dps comes pretty close to yours with far worse gears and a fast mainhand (making it hardly ideal for his spec). I'm just saying that it was a very uneven comparison.
Whatever you come here for, what you are in effect doing is speculating AND basing your speculation on false premises.
According to you, 2h specs are all receiving a nerf when it's simply not true. According to you, DW is currently compatible with 2h specs; well, take a look at the DK page (WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay) and try to find a DW spec. Obviously the data sample represented there isn't the absolute proof but it's hell of a lot more conclusive than a single parse you're using as a base for your argument.These forums aren't about what you like or wish or hope for. They are about facts. You have the facts wrong and I am merely pointing that out.
Syrellia,
People aren't using DW specs because there's no benefit in using DW specs; if there was something to be gained from those, you may be sure you would be seeing them among the top rankings, as we have pre-3.1.
There are things difficult to see. Sometimes people just stay on the safe side instead of exploring new things because they focus on more different things like progressing on raids. If you join a top guild and all they think about DW is crap, then obviously you will never get recognized, never get any loot and will get kicked soon enough (Thank god I'm recognized in a good guild). This direction of thinking was merely pointed out by Blizzard (they said they killed DW specs already).
The situation pre-3.1 was different. Dual Wielding was overpowered back then. You can easily outpace even the best dps 2h spec with awkward gear configurations. It was true. People even wrote guides about how to faceroll 6k+ dps on patchwerk with DW. But did you see people stop going 2H specs? No. There were still a lot of theorycraftings on those 2h specs, and also a lot of people even from top guilds sticking with 2h too. Why didn't you tell them the same thing?
There are many factors which will affect a community's decision to choose upon variable of choices. How about take these things out of this thread, and keep these discussions to ones who's interested on DWing, not those who wanna desecrate it?
*Edit: I'm not gonna argue anymore to clog up this thread. Simply follow what you believe in. I made my point above. For the record, not many guilds have cleared much of the Hard Modes yet, let alone Algalon for the best loots. Top guilds will only take in 2H users, both that and you showed favor to 2H data. If you believe that you can do over 7k dps on Ignis with moderate gears, no AoE or damage gimmicks on 2H specs, then that would put DW to inferior spec. Otherwise, /bow to Fargom, he's only got moderate gears, and is a looooong way to go til his BiS gears. The earth is still revolving around the sun - but people didn't always believe in it.*
Also: Top WoWmeterwhore:
Damage Done
Iron Construct 1,356,763
Ignis the Furnace Master 1,199,720
Time: 3:36
vs.
Fargom
Dmg. Out
Ignis the Furnace Master 1,040,694
DW was overpowered pre-3.1, no question. The point still stands, however, that it was also compatible with (if not outright superior to) 2h specs, and therefore we saw a good portion of DK community taking advantage of it. What we're observing at present is not necessarily the ultimate proof of the reverse situation but it is a pretty good indication. Popular (for the lack of better term) specs are those that are proven to work. There's been plenty of time for DWing to make the cut - and it hasn't. There's a reason for it.
As for that last statement, I do hope you're not aiming that at me. All I am suggesting is that the proponents of DWing keep their facts straight and present unbiased information; you're hardly doing your cause a favor by arguing that the sky is green when everyone can clearly see that it is in fact blue.
When Death Knights were first introduced, Duel-wielding was considered bad. Early posts proclaimed that 2H was King and that only noobs who missed their shamans should duel-wield. Now, of course, we know that DW was actually overpowered but it took some time to figure that out. History has shown that the best builds are not found immediately. Testing in the beginning stages were done using Frost and not full unholy. When I first started the Unholy DW thread, it was not taken seriously. I tried various ways of improving DPS including the controversial Death N Decay.
Finally, an idea of mine panned out. It was the original 0/18/53 that I proposed as an Obliterate spec. While the build itself didn't take off, it spawned two specs that did: 0/17/54 and 0/13/58. As it turns out, 0/18/53 was viable after all and my math was right. I just hadn't implemented it properly. As parses came in, it was clear that they actually could compete and in some cases, surpass 2H builds. Proponents of 2H would come up with a parse that had heavy AoE and compare it to DW with light AoE and declare itself the best. Proponents of DW did the same.
What you think you know may not be right at all. This is the reason we test and retest. We constantly strive to improve specs in the effort to produce maximum DPS. Testing for DW is still relatively new especially since Blizzard declared duel-wielding dead. The irony here is that the unintended successful DW spec may be better than the DW spec that Blizzard itself is making in 3.2.
If you want to know instead of guessing, use the simulator. Take your gear and input the stats accounting for procs, use two similiar ilevel one handed weapons instead of your 2H and put in the 0/18/53 spec found in the DW Unholy Thread and use the priority suggested there. If your spec is better, use it. If mine is better, use that instead. The simulator isn't perfect but it's damn good.
Last edited by Orlgin : 06/22/09 at 8:37 AM.
Reason: I did your homework for you
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Also: Top WoWmeterwhore:
Damage Done
Iron Construct 1,356,763
Ignis the Furnace Master 1,199,720
Time: 3:36
vs.
Fargom
Dmg. Out
Ignis the Furnace Master 1,040,694
Time: 3:54
= Profit?
I fail to see your point in posting that, sure he was going jack crazy on AoE'ing constructs but at the same time he still got more single target damage on Ignis than a DW build in a smaller time frame, so it doesn't really illustrate anything of your point other than that current DW builds don't really match up with two handed ones.
First off it's completely 2 different specs. 2nd of they are of 2 different gear levels. 3rd of:
2H DK: Damage Done:
Heart of the Deconstructor 1,561,103
XT-002 Deconstructor 411,824
Fargom: Damage Done:
XT-002 Deconstructor 2,295,814
Heart of the Deconstructor 263,519
(+ a bit of friendly fire here)
Does it make you wonder?
If you haven't seen the point by now, when you look at damages meter, look closely and analytically. Do not look at it by only the face number. It just proves that you're ignorant.
*Edit: Fargom and the DK who jacked the dps up posted on my post above, they both have different gear level btw.*
At a closer look on Ignis: I know this may be a bit unfair for the person who jacked up his dps because he had to use some abilities on adds instead of maximizing on boss. Assuming that they both use pets on boss (they would be dumb otherwise), and the breakdowns will never show any pet damage on damage done per target, I'll just take away the damage he did on Iron Construct to calculate his dps on Ignis. Fargom's pet was doing more damages than Egokiller's pet (look at the parse yourself to see that):
Egokiller's real dps = reported dps - (Iron construct dmg done / time in second) = 11835 - (1,356,763 / 216) = 5554 dps
Fargom's real dps = reported dps - (Iron construct dmg done / time in second) = 6305 - ( 0 / 234 ) = 6305 dps
06/19/09, 5:42 PM
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