Sylari

I'm fairly certain that regardless of how ToT works, a slower offhand will be preferable.. If it does work like stormstrike, then naturally slower will lead to better strike damage, and even if it's independant, slower works better for unadjusted procs with haste.

 

teiglin

Faster weapons do more BCB damage. What is an "unadjusted proc"? If you're talking about PPM-based procs like FC, then yes, assuming OH strikes from ToT can proc them, strikes with slower weapons will have a higher chance to proc them. However, percentage based procs will proc more with a fast weapon. I suspect that higher strike damage will become the dominant factor and make slow OH better when all other things are equal, but we'll have to see how it plays out.

 

Aatis

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't BCB procs now based on the weapon that procced it? So a fast offhand would also give much smaller BCB procs than a slower weapon.

Damaged provided by BCB regardless of weapon speed should be approximately:
BCB-DPS = (white DPS) * 0.3 * (0.25 + 0.125 * (number of diseases)) = 15% of your white damage with 2 diseases, or 18.75% of your white damage with 3 diseases

Weapon speed should have no relevance on the total damage from BCB, only the frequency of its proc. Fast weapons only deal more damage with procs that are both based on a % chance, AND have a flat damage component that isn't affected by the weapons power.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Threat of Thassarian (New Talent, Tier 8 ) - When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon.

ToT is deep in the Frost tree, as expected. That kinda kills DW Unholy specs, since Frost will be much more powerful.

DocsUI
DK Simulator

 

Fauh

Looking at the Patch Notes right now it says that BS will infact do 50% more damage per disease, which makes a build like this instresting

Basicly my thought was to increase the damage of BS as much as possible and use OB for Death Runes ( for more BS pew pew )

basicly the rotation would be something like:

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS
BS-BS-BS-BS-BS-BS

with the FS weaving we've learned from ITx6 Rotations

will test it out as soon as i get on the PTR

 

whatthecrap

You must have missed the entire last few pages of this thread.

ToT is an attempt to bring DW strikes up to the level that 2h strikes are currently.

DW Unholy is CURRENTLY out dps'ing 2h Frost.

Your assertion is false.

 

Weidekuh

Yes, but DW does more white damage than 2h, so DW Frost will also be better than 2h Frost.
As i see it right now is that DW will have 2 viable specs. Deep Unholy and deep Frost. Which one will win out in the long run is to be seen. I don't think the Difference is that big.

 

darstrus

Deep frost looks good with ToT

 

Fargom

I'm not sure if you have been reading the discussion on the last few pages, but how exactly does this kill unholy DW? This is pretty much exactly what we expected from ToT, and honestly, I can't see a ToT DW build doing better than 0/17/54 DW with the new Unholy blight.


Edit- Looks like a few people beat me to the punch while I was posting, sorry to hit you with so many responses dr_AllCOM3.

 

• vank

So in your judgement, you think a build without ToT (DW Unholy) has the potential to outperform a build with ToT (DW Frost) based on the current information we have? I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering if that's your assertion?

 

pintor

I am actually surprised that ToT is as high up as it is in the tree. The point of moving HB down the tree was to move it away from impurity. Leaving ToT in tier 8 allows for us to pick up ToT and impurity opening up all sorts of potential builds involving both DC and FS with the perma-ghoul. Two that come to mind are:

0/45/26 with FS

and

0/42/29 with DC

The first is possibly the most interesting, as a perma-ghoul with the heavy hitting FS is something that would be very nice.

edit: edited the second build to take UA at the cost of 1 point in morbidity

 

Yubble

With the first spec... I think Dirge will be a better investment than 5/5 Impurity in order to provide .5 more FS per rotation.

.5 FS ~ 2k? = ~ 100 dps which is > 2/5 impurity.

 

darstrus

I'm liking

15/53/3 Frost

 

Edimasta

Question is if that can keep up the loss of Tundra Stalker... and you won't need DC when using the new FS.
Would not be very effective to push both or use both. One should do it!

And imho we should not stick to much to the "old" Unholy DW. We should not forget that ToT should bring our strikes nearly up to the 2h strikes. So logic tells us that those strikes used with the right spec will be stronger then the current Unholy DW, which is not that competitive to 2hand as for now.

But 0/45/26 looks interesting. Or the BloodStrike targeted build.

 

Yubble

Glyphs and rotation please.

I don't think there's any way that this build will outdo 0/45/26 or 49/22 due to the auto attack talents in unholy.

 

Fargom

Before this thread gets out of hand, I would like to remind everyone that we showed 0/17/54 is currently doing 6300+ dps to single target fights. Unholy blight is (napkin math) about a 450 dps gain for 0/17/54, bringing single target dps up to the 6750 range. I understand a lot of people might have missed the discussion on the past few pages, but it is a mistake to assume that the addition of ToT will make the old spec obsolete. Current DW specs can easily keep pace or outdo two handed builds.

I would also suggest to everyone that simply posting a spec and stating that you "feel" it will be strong is not a very good way to theorycraft. I know there is excitement in the air right now, but make sure to at least test your builds before bringing them to the table. Everything needs to be retested at this point, lets get to it.

 

Melchior

I agree for the most part. It's pretty unlikely that just using a default 2H Frost spec w/ ToT included is going to be optimal for DW Frost, and we need to start getting hard numbers on what kind of numbers ToT generates, as well as seeing how the UB Glyph actually interacts with UB before we get ahead of ourselves.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

pintor

Completely agree with this and would like to add one thing. Last patch the DW threads got cluttered with recount shots on target dummies. Please do not post target dummy dps and say "woot look at my awesome dps". Target dummy dps is useful to compare rotations and talents within the same spec as long as we have a ton of information (including the HP of the dummy, your current gear etc.). But, comparing different specs (for example: unholy dw to frost dw) on a target dummy is a pointless exercise and gives no real data.

 

Orlgin

The enhanced Blood Strike is where a lot of DPS is going to come from. According to my calculations, 5/5 Tundra Stalker produces more DPS than the Ghoul, 3 points in Impurity and 1 point in Dirge. This is due to the enormous damage that Blood Strike will do with the extra multiplier. If ToT didn't include Blood Strike, then Tundra Stalker would come up short. As it is, expect 0/50/21 to be the top build. I used a likely priority for both builds using Ghoul glyph for 45/26 and Blood Strike glyph + 1 point in Chillblains (-1 point in KM) for 50/21. Calculated for 7000 AP and 45% critical. More critical there is, the better the Frost build gets. Ghoul numbers based on sims I used earlier. Hopefully my KM calculations were right but it is what I expected.

As for 0/17/54 vs 0/50/21, that's a bit more complicated. Someone else can do that math.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.

 

Eishara

Looking through the datamined MMO-Champion spell database I noticed several new spells that are possibly related to Threat of Thassarian such as Obliterate. Assuming the tooltips are accurate we now know just how the offhand strike part of ToT functions.

EDIT: That is to say it's an exact copy of the mainhand strike, just using the offhand weapon's damage value.

 

lare

Long time reader, never poster (maybe once or twice)

Usually don't feel the need to post, as with my low gear levels I generally don't have anything to contribute.

However, I've thought of something that I haven't seen brought up yet and am more than a little curious as to the impacts of it, so for you theorycrafts to chew on:

With the new Unholy Blight talent mechanics, adding the dot to Death Coil, how will it work? (PTR won't work for me, so I'm not sure if it's actually playable on right now or not, but heres my question anyway.)

- Will each Death Coil produce a stacking DoT on the target?

- Will a more powerful Death Coil crit (ie higher crit) Overwrite the current DoT on the target?

- Will each Death Coil refresh the DoT effect of UB?

-- If it does constantly refresh with each Death Coil, will it take 30% of the highest crit and refresh that, or will each refresh change the DoT to 30% of the last Death Coil?

-- Or if we get a high Death Coil crit, will we get "A more powerful spell is already active" and not be able to refresh the DoT refresh till that 10 seconds is up, in which case it would be yet another timer to monitor to make sure you had 40 rp to get the DoT back ticking ASAP.

- I read awhile back about the ITx6 spam, that delaying an IT for a moment to allow the DoT to tick once was something some people were doing, if this going to benifit again/this time?

Depending on recieving answers to the above, I may try something like this: 0 / 45 / 26

General spec intent: Keeping the Death Coil DoT rolling, Frost Striking when Death Coil DoT is already up. May benifit from Unholy Presence.

Rotation would be something like:
PS>IT>OB>BS>BS>DC>FS
OB>OB>OB>DC>FS Dump

Sigil of the Vengeful Heart for doubley benefity goodness.

No idea if it would work, but that would be why I'm here posting this.

Edit to add: Depending on how they change the UB glyph, this might work a little better. If they make the glyph add time to the Death Coil DoT that is.

PS: Im no Theory Crafter, just a back seat reader. I usually read and read and read until I find a spec that I find interesting with proven results, this is the first time I've used my brain for my own benifit so be gentle :P

 

dr_AllCOM3

There is no rolling DC dot. It's just decoration, another way of buffing DC by 30%.

DocsUI
DK Simulator

 

lare

So then each and every Death Coil would do an additional 30% for 1 talent point? O.o Interesting.

 

Grimm

What do you suggest people use as a test subject then? Seems to be test dummies are ideal subjects, removing far more variables than they introduce. They are a very controlled situation, accessible under similar conditions by everyone. Where else are you going to get that kind of controlled environment to make, as close as possible, to equivalent tests?

 

Epicness

You said that 50/21 would be the best, I am assuming you are planning to use death coil because of the 21 points so you can get the new unholy blight. However, now that frost strike hits with both weapons, with two slow one handers it seems that one frost strike would do more damage than one death coil+UB. Also considering that death coil and UB would do more damage with more AP, while frost strike will do more damage with more high damage from weapons. I dont have spreadsheets or anything, but it seems that if you have two good slow handers, you should spec into frost strike, but if you are still working on getting the best high damage weapons, death coil +unholy blight would be better.

I also agree on your point about tundra stalker probably being better than the ghoul, considering the new blood strike buff. If this is the case, 0/53/18 would seem to be a good spec, having BCB for that extra damage.
Using a rotation of
IT-PS-BS-BS-OB-FS dump
OB-OB-OB-FS dump

Along the way of course you could use pestilence with glyph of disease to refresh your diseases, and just use BS after that so you have an even amount of death runes.

Until testing is done, we don't know if it would be better to OB spam or BS spam, if it turns out BS spam is better, speccing 18/53/0 might be better than 0/53/18, so you could get Death Rune mastery.