Dual Wield Builds - Page 119

Winco · 01/26/09, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by JALbert

It seems to violate any logical theorycrafting. You have 6 points in Obliterate talents for a Dual Wield build, where Obliterate is of quite minimal use. You also have 3 points in blood tap, which will not provide a DPS increase. You have 6 points in Death Rune talents, to what end? You don't even have 5/5 black Ice for spamming icy touch. Your melee damage is 44% of your damage, which seems unreasonably high, you could be doing much more damage elsewhere. You IT 4 times, what exactly are the death runes doing?

It's also a 30 second report judging by 3k DPS and 90k damage, so you either blew all your cooldowns for the quick shot, or got ludicrously lucky for a quick burst on the RNG.

To get more than 20 points in blood, you essentially have to 5 waste points.

I came up with a similar spec a while back in hopes of a build that would grab Abomination's Might. It would work similar to that of a deep Unholy build, using Icy Touch for damage, and Obliterate to create Unholy Runes for additional Icy Touches. It seemed like an interesting idea, but ultimately discarded it, since it seemed that the use of Obliterate would better suit a 2 Hander, and the useless talent points to achieve Abomination's Might. Lack of Night of the Dead wasn't to attractive either. Though I wouldn't be opposed to anyone giving it a go.

Kyruski · 01/27/09, 1:09 AM

@Shmuk: Unless it has changed, Blood Pres should still be better than Unholy which might be a little bit of your problem.

Netlawyer · 01/27/09, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by thinkrevolutionx

Originally I had though that i'd get a second last laugh and be a beast. However, after my testing today i'm thinking maybe not.. and also I don't see anyone else using last laugh - isn't it the best weapon in the game for us?

Well I got the same question... already got 1 [Last Laugh] and thinking about the second one... Please advise us if this item worths fight with tanking dudes when KT will drop it... anyway it is highest dps 1h weapon we can use...

Thanks

forusak · 01/27/09, 3:44 AM

Originally Posted by Narro

{ 24/18/29 }

This DW spec, in my experience post-patch, has out dps'ed 44/27 and 32/39 builds. And I know what you are thinking, what the heck is Two-Handed Weapon Specialization doing in a DW build. Two-handed weapons out preform DW on fights like patch, thadd, and gluth ect. This build increases in dps over two-handers when put in a fight like grob, widow, anub, sapp ect

My recount SS from a dummy >HERE< and the breakdown... >HERE<

Please note that this is a 1 health dummy, no Necrosis value here, and this build is without Merciless Comabt, so no over value.

My rotation is: PS, IT, BS, BS, OB, {{Dump}} OB, OB, OB, {{Dump}}
My only buff is HoW, but this build doesn't make sense in any of the spreadsheets, but in practice it simply works.

I do not have a WWS yet, but am going into Naxx on wednesday and will be sure to get a WWS from it.

Any thoughts?

Mate do more then 94k dmg done in test and then post your screen... If test isn't longer then 3 minutes then it's nothing...
I can do 3000+ easy with any random specc if I can stop at 94k dmg. Your specc can't do high dps because I see 900 avg dmg and 2000 avg crit dmg there what's for main skill realy low... Just DC or FS in 44/27 or 32/39 can easy beat your obliterate which need to be main skill with top dmg hits

Shmuk · 01/27/09, 5:33 AM

Originally Posted by Khaosknight

Shmuck, the most i can see as far as gear is that you need more hit rating. 11% spell hit for raids is what most 32/39 specs shoot for.

Also, did you pop AoTD at the beginning of the patchwerk fight? most of the ridiculously high dps posts for that fight have it popped at the beginning. Depending on your guild it can be a decent portion of your damage if they stay up for the full duration.

Short of that, you didn't really post any information (like a rotation/priority system) so thats the most I can tell you.

My character tab tells my i have 11.67% spellhit.

I didn't pop AoTD, can do that next time but it wont make a 500dps increase.

I posted my rotation at the beginning of my post (IT,PS,HB,BS,BS,RP dump - IT,PS,HB,IT,IT,RP dum). It's a fixed rotation, no priorities.

Originally Posted by Kyruski

@Shmuk: Unless it has changed, Blood Pres should still be better than Unholy which might be a little bit of your problem.

I tested blood pres & unholy pres on the boss dummy for some hours & found that unholy pres works best for me. Maybe in raids that blood pres comes out on top, i'll try it next raid and see what the result is.

Ommar · 01/27/09, 6:12 AM

Here are the questions that should be answered regarding using 2h in dw build or not:

1-Has anyone tried a 2h in dw spec, and the folowing rotation: PS-IT-BS-BS-HB (RP usage) OB-IT-IT-HB ?(I will give it a whirl tonight)

2-Does obliterate do more damage with a 2hander than a dual wielding ps+it? (need to know ob and ps formula since IT formula was posted at page 41 I think)

3-Does missing less with 2 hander and the higher BS+PS+necrosis damage outweigh the more frequent necrosis+bcb and auto attack damage of dual wielding.

Time to dust off my titan steel destroyer. My only variation in testing will be: BP in dw vs UP in 2hander and anhiliation for 2h vs nerves of cold steel for dw

In regarding to the other specs above, in my opinion rime,howling blast,ghoul,impurity are all necessary talents as 32/39,44/27 or any variations should not be called dw but HB/IT builds now.

P.s. 32/39 rocks at pvp

Orothar · 01/27/09, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Shmuk

I didn't pop AoTD, can do that next time but it wont make a 500dps increase.

AotD does roughly 1400 dps for 40 sec. If your guild is topnotch, they kill patch in 2:30 roughly.
That leaves an overall dps of AotD of:

1400*40/150 = 373 dps. Thats quite a lot...

P.s.: a little trickt from the Pet thread;
Before you start the fight, be in unholy presence and pop a speed pot, then cast AotD. The pot will get a 60 sec CD, because you arnt in in combat yet and you can use it again later in the fight. this boosts AotD quite nicely.

Sylari · 01/27/09, 6:48 AM

Just a quick question to clarify something about Killing Machine:

The talent reads "your melee attacks", and not successful attacks, but I was running some tests earlier and I noticed that my PPM dropped significantly when I had a second weapon equipped, could someone clarify this for me?

Orothar · 01/27/09, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sylari

Just a quick question to clarify something about Killing Machine:

The talent reads "your melee attacks", and not successful attacks, but I was running some tests earlier and I noticed that my PPM dropped significantly when I had a second weapon equipped, could someone clarify this for me?

Blizz changed KM to only proc off your mainhand weapon and no longer proc off your Offhand weapon. However, the game cant discern between OH and MH for unarmed it seems. So when only using a weapon in your MH, you effectively OH unarmed, which does proc KM.

The loss in dp from not equipping an OH weapon is probably a lot higher then the dps inrease from the extra KM procs.

shydex · 01/27/09, 11:49 AM

I understand everyones logic about going for a high dps build, as dk's seem made for high dps. I think my question lies with the spec recomendations and the amount of utility that seems to get passed up. I think everyone by now has tested up to the top tier on target dummies, but this is useless. They don't hit back, they don't debuff you, fear you, or stun you. It's akin to a martial artist breaking a block of wood to show how good he is. It only shows you what is possiable if conditons are perfect.

I tend to spec for pvp. I think most people min/maxing are thinking about the same. While patchwork is a good to test for pve viability, there seems to be no easy standard test for pvp, as there are alot of veriables. Thus it seems people are leaving that entirely out of the mix. This to me is stupid for anyone who wants the most effecient spec for pvp. I've been doing spec trials off a dps meter in warsong, and arena's. Things that are traditionally neglected, such as hungering cold, which usually means we lose the ghoul, actually raise kills and dps indirectly (hungering cold + Death Chill + Howling Blast). White damage generally got shut down 30% and diseases have a comparativly higher dps, as your entire dps generally drops 1/3. Gargoyle becomes even a bigger dps talent as it is a fire and forget, but ghoul becomes far less, as it can be killed, lost, rooted, snared, debuffed, stuned, etc. There are some talent builds that don't even take litchbone that plan on pvping, like the 50/0/21 spec. Yet it has the most utility of any of our skills in pvp (immune fear, high end meele damage reduction, self healing).

The other thing is i dont see anyone taking endless winter and chillblaines. It's a skill talent imho. The better you are sticking with an enemy, the worse the talent gets. However realisiticly as a duel wield class who is focusing on white damage, needs all the help they can get to stay within range or out of range when they need to. I'm curious if anyone has comparisions between dummies, patchwork and warsong, eye, arena or arathi (being AV and WG are to circus to get an accurate number)

shydex · 01/27/09, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Orothar

Blizz changed KM to only proc off your mainhand weapon and no longer proc off your Offhand weapon. However, the game cant discern between OH and MH for unarmed it seems. So when only using a weapon in your MH, you effectively OH unarmed, which does proc KM.

The loss in dp from not equipping an OH weapon is probably a lot higher then the dps inrease from the extra KM procs.

Do you have the link to the blue on this? or is this conjecture through testing?

• Zurm · 01/27/09, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by shydex

Do you have the link to the blue on this? or is this conjecture through testing?

Here's your blue post.

As such, unless you can get hit and expertise capped with a DW build (which is much less likely than a 2H build) you will miss more, while having the same base PPM, thus actually having a LOWER chance to proc KM as a DW spec than a 2H spec, on average.

aldy · 01/27/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Here's your blue post.

As such, unless you can get hit and expertise capped with a DW build (which is much less likely than a 2H build) you will miss more, while having the same base PPM, thus actually having a LOWER chance to proc KM as a DW spec than a 2H spec, on average.

I don't feel like doing any math, but the higher miss rate of DW will be offset by at least somewhat by its potential 5-10% haste advantage through talents (Imp I.Ta; depending on what builds we are talking about) and gear choices (personally, my ideal DW set has 5% more haste than my ideal 2h set).
Honestly I'm kind of impressed; Blizzard balanced 2h and DW pretty well. In my experience, most builds can switch between 2h and DW (with a few talent points switched here and there) and get dps numbers that are only separated by 100 or so dps, allowing people to make decisions based on what they prefer and what weapons they have.

shydex · 01/27/09, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Here's your blue post.

As such, unless you can get hit and expertise capped with a DW build (which is much less likely than a 2H build) you will miss more, while having the same base PPM, thus actually having a LOWER chance to proc KM as a DW spec than a 2H spec, on average.

Thanks for the blue, i must of missed it.

This really blows, it seems DW is inferior to 2H spec's. I did some testing in bg's, doing half 2h half dw with a 20/51/0, 44/27/0 and a 32/39, 2h was a good 15-20% more. Mainly KM is so unreliable now, you just hit HB anyways. With the 5 second cooldown half the time you miss the HB KM proc's due to refreshing IT or hitting FS/IT by accident. 2H doesn't have a problem with that as you can just oblit. I'm going to do some more testing on KM proc's as it did seem that i was landing more with DW, they where just at the wrong times and seemed to be right when i was pressing IT or FS or so. I'm thinking it was just perception.

Kraven · 01/27/09, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by shydex

I understand everyones logic about going for a high dps build, as dk's seem made for high dps. I think my question lies with the spec recomendations and the amount of utility that seems to get passed up. I think everyone by now has tested up to the top tier on target dummies, but this is useless. They don't hit back, they don't debuff you, fear you, or stun you. It's akin to a martial artist breaking a block of wood to show how good he is. It only shows you what is possiable if conditons are perfect.

I tend to spec for pvp.

Thanks for stating the obvious about target dummies. I believe the thread you are looking for is this one: Deathknight PvP Thread

"Boards don't hit back." -Bruce Lee