Dual Wield Builds - Page 13

crimsonsentinel · 12/18/08, 3:51 AM

For those of you who want to try 40+ points in frost and use frost strike, I have a question for you:

Why don't you just use a 2 hander instead? If you're putting so many points to boost FS, you might as well use oblit too and since you've gone that far, might as well use a 2hander since FS and oblit scales so much better with 2 handers.

It confuses me why people are putting out awkward variations of a 2hand frost build and expecting to dual wield with it.

Melchior · 12/18/08, 4:45 AM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

For those of you who want to try 40+ points in frost and use frost strike, I have a question for you:

Why don't you just use a 2 hander instead? If you're putting so many points to boost FS, you might as well use oblit too and since you've gone that far, might as well use a 2hander since FS and oblit scales so much better with 2 handers.

It confuses me why people are putting out awkward variations of a 2hand frost build and expecting to dual wield with it.

They're just ideas. That is why this thread exists.

More importantly, it's going to be important to continue looking at talents and specs from the standpoint of how they are going to scale with gear come next tier(s) of itemization. That is probably the biggest concern with a spec like 0/32/39 imo, because it really doesn't look like a build that is going to scale that well.

If anything, it strikes me that a build like 0/32/39 is a heck of a lot more awkward than most considering we're taking a melee class and trying to funnel as much damage through damage sources that are not scaling whatsoever off weapon DPS. That is going to be a big concern going forward; at some point itemization is simply not going to support you very well if you're trying to ride one particular stat (in this case STR/AP) to prop up the majority of your DPS. Were that not the case Affliction would have been a lot better off in the past.

Oathof Chaos · 12/18/08, 7:58 AM

I'm glad the 50 frost builds are coming up as viable builds. To be honest, as a matter of personal preference, I'm not a big fan of Unholy one bit. Taking it far down the tree to get another disease just to boost BCB seems rather iffy, and as Melchoir pointed out (as well as others, he's just the latest one to post), they don't scale well with itemization. Howling Blast doesn't seem to either (save the AP boost, but all DK spells and DoTs scale with AP, so it's rather moot)... but with all of the damage bonuses, plus the fast crits with Killing Machine to use on Icy Touch and Howling Blast, and all of the ways to make them better... Frost just seems to call my name in that ever-so-gentle way.

Here's my question. If I were to use a 50 Frost DW build.... would it be wise to drop the Frost Strike to go with something like Shadow of Death to focus on Death Coil so I can make better use off of Fast / Fast weapons, or would I end up losing out on something? I'm assuming the fast crits (say 2x Hailstorms or something similar with a 1.5 base speed) would keep Killing Machine up almost indefinately (at a 35% crit raid buffed) ... 1 in 3ish strikes are crits... BCB should proc about the same amount of times as KM, and thus I can add that into a HB or IT rotation (most of my rotations I ad-lib anyway because I juggle Death Runes like they're going out of style).

Epicness · 12/18/08, 8:31 AM

Well I know Im not 80 yet, but I have a rotation that would be great for most DW specs. Theres little down time and it gets the job done.

IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS (a couple seconds of downtime)
IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS-->DC (almost no downtime)
IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS-->DC (almost no downtime)

Yes, in the first part of the rotation, there is only one DC and some more downtime than the other parts (because you don't have enough runic power), but the next two parts allow for two DC and have almost no downtime

Then it's just rinse and repeat.

P.S. Why does everyone think 0/32/39 is so great? Is it more viable than 14/31/26? Because that's the spec Im using.

klineshrike · 12/18/08, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Epicness

Well I know Im not 80 yet, but I have a rotation that would be great for most DW specs. Theres little down time and it gets the job done.

IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS (a couple seconds of downtime)
IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS-->DC (almost no downtime)
IT-->PS-->HB-->DC-->BS-->BS-->DC (almost no downtime)

Yes, in the first part of the rotation, there is only one DC and some more downtime than the other parts (because you don't have enough runic power), but the next two parts allow for two DC and have almost no downtime

Then it's just rinse and repeat.

P.S. Why does everyone think 0/32/39 is so great? Is it more viable than 14/31/26? Because that's the spec Im using.

IMO the reason 0/32/39 beat out any build with bladed armor is because bladed armor pretty much doesnt scale at all. Not enough to even consider. Otherwise its not such a big diff, but it seems points in unholy boost the positives of the build more as a whole than points in blood. The third disease, death runes to replace your only truely weapon reliant skill, and bone armors small bt significant dps increase all are powerful tools over a fairly stagnant small AP increase and 4 crit. Although the crit might scale better later on.

Personally, I couldnt live without Reaping or BOTN, converting blood strikes into death runes is imperitive for any DW build, as it allows either a HB or two IT (and two IT is preferred) which is a massive increase to dps. That alone makes me not want to go into blood like that.

Shalymar · 12/18/08, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Epicness

P.S. Why does everyone think 0/32/39 is so great? Is it more viable than 14/31/26? Because that's the spec Im using.

Let’s say a DK has 12,000 armor.

12,000 / 180 * 5 = 333.3 bonus Attack Power.

Bladed Armor adds +333.3 AP.

Info:
Attack Power – 2,000
Death Coil APC - 0.15
Death Coil Base damage 443.

Using Death Coil as an example, a Death Knight with 2000 Attack Power will do 443 + (2000 × 0.15) = 743 damage with Death Coil.

Add in 333 from Bladed Armor

443 + ((2000 + 333) × 0.15)) = 792.95 damage with Death Coil

A net gain of 49.95 damage.

Now if you went deeper into the Unholy tree, you will most likely pick up

Impurity - Rank 5/5
Your spells receive an additional 25% benefit from your attack power.

So using Death Coil as an example again,

Death Coil APC + Impurity - (0.15 x 25%) = 0.1875
443 + (2000 x 0.1875) = 818

A net gain of 75.00 damage.

The point is you are spend 10 points to get down to 5/5 Bladed Armor which doesn’t scale well in the first place, when you can take those 10 points, put 5 in Impurity which will net you more dps and 5 in something else which will also increase your over all dps.

To equal the damage bonus from Impurity using 2k AP as my base, a DK using Bladed Armor would need an 18,000 Armor Rating. To me it is seems easier to reach 2,000 Attack Power and use the bonus from Impurity. If you had the gear to reach 18k AR, then I am sure your AP will be well over 2k further increasing the bonus from Impurity.

Of course these numbers will vary with each person gear configuration.

Cronar · 12/18/08, 10:33 AM

Longtime reader, first-time poster.

So, for raids, I have always been specced 17/0/54, and have always hated it. However, raid leader said it was optimum. I couldn't see this being the case, considering Crypt-fever/ebon plaguebringer doesn't stack, desecreation is garbage, and unless there is something ridiculous which will be getting nerf-bombed , (Readiness/bestial for hunters) or hopefully hotfixed (like the rogue combo-point crit bug) then any spec could bring something positive to the raid. Our guild has cleared all 25-man content (which is not hard to do) running with 4 DK's, 3 unholy and 1 blood. That one blood Dk has now respecced to Unholy, with the cookie cutter build 17/0/54. I have always been interested in DW frost, and after straying from the unholy forum, I have made my way here, where I believe I rightfully belong.

After reading much of the DW as well as unholy forums (and some blood), I think I have made some conscious decisions that may not need answering, but feel free to correct me:

-27 points are MANDATORY in the unholy tree. Pet ghoul is too good to pass up, and accounts for a huge portion of damage, so long as he stays alive. gargoyle is necessary, and must be used as often as possible, especially if using trinkets that modify AP (mirror's edge and fury of the five). Necrosis is important, since most of the damage you do it caused by autoattacks.
-Desecration is useless on most raid bosses
-Slow MH <=2.6 (with fallen crusader) and fast oh >=1.6 (with razorice)
-9% hit and 6% expertise

Unclear issues:
-Priorities on stat stacking: After reaching hit cap, strength is the most important stat. I understand attack power is extremely important for spells, as well as the ghoul, followed by crit (straight crit better than agility). What next? haste or armor penetration for DW?
-Blood presence or unholy presence
-Glyphs: Right now i am using Icy touch, ghoul strength, and Scourge strike(from unholy, I understand it will do me nothing now) I know these are incorrect, but I believe the ghoul glyph must be a staple?
-Deathcoil or Frost Strike
-Haunted Dreams or Gothic Sigil? I am leaning towards Haunted Dreams

Lost:
-27 Unholy: I don't believe dirge is worth speccing into since obliterate is rarely used, the unholy DK's in my raid give the inherent 15 or 16% run speed from unholy aura. Desecration is silly, according to the unholy DPS forums. Crypt-fever/ebon plague does not stack, so I will leave that to the other 3 unholies. I also feel bone shield is a waste, 2% extra damage is trivial. Reaping is pending because of how I use the remaining talent points in the Frost Tree.

-44 Frost: I am specced into annihilation because it increases crit-chance melee special abilities by 3%, which would be blood strike (trivial) and frost strike (maybe not worth using). Love rime, so I personally believe atleast 32 points in frost are necessary. If I spec out of annihilation, I should spec out of frost srike. If i drop Blood of the North, I should spec reaping in unholy. However, BotN opens up Guile of Gorefiend, which would affect my Bloodstrike, Froststrike, and Howling Blast.

-XX Blood: I could see subversion/butchery only to achieve bladed armor/dark conviction, but bladed armor never seemed THAT great, although Dark Conviction is very tempting. 15 in blood, if ANYTHING at all.

-Removing BotN, GoG, Annihilation, and FS from Frost tree would leave me with 9 points, after putting 3 in Reaping. Epedemic? Blood tree? I just don't see how it could possibly be worth NOT speccing the full 44 into Frost. However, removing 3 from Annihilation may help in terms of throwing 2 in epidemic, 1 in subversion, or as I see better spent, Deathchill <-:-( don't flame please, but a free crit on howling blast? c'mon

And finally, the please help:
-ROTATION: (without rime proc)
1st PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>RD (Frost Strike or DC)
2nd PS>IT>HB>(OB or (HB<-better I think))

-ROTATION (with rime proc) This assumes annihilation is present, because the free HB leaves me open for an OB, which in turn justifies all obliterate adjusting skills
1st PS>IT>HB>OB>BS>BS>RD (Frost strike or DC)
2nd PS>IT>HB>OB>OB>RD (Frost strike or DC)

Feedback would be shamazing

Shalymar · 12/18/08, 12:34 PM

Unclear issues:
-Priorities on stat stacking: After reaching hit cap, strength is the most important stat. I understand attack power is extremely important for spells, as well as the ghoul, followed by crit (straight crit better than agility). What next? haste or armor penetration for DW?
-Blood presence or unholy presence

My Priorities are:
Str/AP
Hit
Crit
Haste
Arm Pen

I use:
Unholy Presence

-Glyphs: Right now i am using Icy touch, ghoul strength, and Scourge strike(from unholy, I understand it will do me nothing now) I know these are incorrect, but I believe the ghoul glyph must be a staple?

I use:

Major:
Glyph of Frost Strike (After the patch, it will cost 8 RP less.)
Glyph of Icy Touch
Glyph of the Ghoul

Minon:
Glyph of Death's Embrace
Glyph of Horn of Winter
Glyph of Pestilence

My rotation is:

2F - 2U - 2B

Combat Begins
IT - (1F) (0s) reset @ 10 (+25 RP Total:25)
PS - (1U) (1s) reset @ 11 (+10 RP Total:35)
HB - (1U/1F)(2s) reset @ 12 (+20 RP Total:55)
BS - (1B) (3s) reset @ 13 ** 1 Death Rune ** (+10 RP Total:65)
BS - (1B) (4s) reset @ 14 ** 1 Death Rune ** (+10 RP Total:75)
FS - (40 RP)(5s) (-40 RP Total:35)
6s - 10s 2 Auto Swing

--- 10 sec Rune Reset
IT - (1F) (10s) (+25 RP Total:60)
PS - (1U) (11s) (+10 RP Total:70)
HB - (1U/1F)(12s) (+20 RP Total:90)
IT - (1D) (13s) (+25 RP Total:115)
FS - (40 RP)(14s) (-40 RP Total:75)
IT - (1D) (15s) (+25 RP Total:100)
FS - (40 RP)(16s) (-40 RP Total:60)
FS - (40 RP)(17s) (-40 RP Total:20)
18s - 20s 1 Auto Swing

Cronar · 12/18/08, 12:52 PM

Does your rotation change with Rime procs? I think it would make sense if rime procced on the first or second rotation to immediately follow HB with OBL.

skeldi · 12/18/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shalymar

Let’s say a DK has 12,000 armor.

12,000 / 180 * 5 = 333.3 bonus Attack Power.

Bladed Armor adds +333.3 AP.

Info:
Attack Power – 2,000
Death Coil APC - 0.15
Death Coil Base damage 443.

Using Death Coil as an example, a Death Knight with 2000 Attack Power will do 443 + (2000 × 0.15) = 743 damage with Death Coil.

Add in 333 from Bladed Armor

443 + ((2000 + 333) × 0.15)) = 792.95 damage with Death Coil

A net gain of 49.95 damage.

Now if you went deeper into the Unholy tree, you will most likely pick up

Impurity - Rank 5/5
Your spells receive an additional 25% benefit from your attack power.

So using Death Coil as an example again,

Death Coil APC + Impurity - (0.15 x 25%) = 0.1875
443 + (2000 x 0.1875) = 818

A net gain of 75.00 damage.

The point is you are spend 10 points to get down to 5/5 Bladed Armor which doesn’t scale well in the first place, when you can take those 10 points, put 5 in Impurity which will net you more dps and 5 in something else which will also increase your over all dps.

To equal the damage bonus from Impurity using 2k AP as my base, a DK using Bladed Armor would need an 18,000 Armor Rating. To me it is seems easier to reach 2,000 Attack Power and use the bonus from Impurity. If you had the gear to reach 18k AR, then I am sure your AP will be well over 2k further increasing the bonus from Impurity.

Of course these numbers will vary with each person gear configuration.

I don't think the problem is bladed armor so much as the lack of Dark Conviction. Dark Conviction increases KM uptime as well as increases overall crit. Wouldn't that (plus the minor increase in AP from Bladed Armor) be > than 5 points in Impurity + 5 elsewhere?

Zolak · 12/18/08, 1:52 PM

I was browsing the wow forums this morning, and saw a new monster DW build. This build pumped out 5300 dps on Patchwerk, and there are still some sub-optimal choices made for talents (corpse explosion, necrosis, etc.)

0/32/39. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The dude who cracked 5k DPS was pretty geared out, but there is good synergy here and not a lot of bloat. Gargoyle, perma-ghoul, heavy frost damage, rime, killing machine (actually put to good use), and 3 diseases on target for heavier strikes. rp dump is obviously gargoyle, and death coil if permitted.

Anyway, this spec is at least worth a bit of discussion...there's definitely some potential with this build. I might allocate talents a little differently, leaning more towards extra mobility to get yourself back on target quicker (referring back to Zurm's posts about the value of unholy aura).

Chandon · 12/18/08, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Irongaunt

Ah. So you meant if you have TWO standard unholy spec DKs in the raid, not one (your post made it sound like one). Yes, you'd lose the bonus damage off of BCB's third disease if Crypt Fever, like Ebon Plague, has the same overwriting issue (does it? I don't know. Especially at different ranks?) You'd also gain a big chunk of damage on your ITs and HBs and DCs and whatnot. I think that occurs with most class/specs that provide buffs/debuffs...the more you have, the less effective each individual is, no?

So yes, in a raid with two additional unholy DKs, one spec'd for ebon plague and spec'd for crypt fever, this spec would lose some value. But with one other DK or two that haven't spec'd in sync with each other (it does happen!) you don't lose anything beyond a faster movement speed and if you are in a raid group that maintains similar structure throughout there's absolutely no harm in moving those two points elsewhere, thus gaining a benefit and not having to worry further.

Has anyone confirmed the behavior of crypt fever on a target also affected by ebon plague? Anyone who has played an unholy spec can attest that only one DK can apply and benefit from ebon plague on the target. If there is already an ebon plague up, can a DK only spec'd for crypt fever apply that crypt fever? And vice versa? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer to this question anywhere in the thread and I suspect it is something on a lot of people's minds.

I personally prefer to play 0/32/39, but I would at least consider switching to a tri-spec if I knew that I couldn't reliably count on the third disease for my BCB etc.

Jynavi · 12/18/08, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

They're just ideas. That is why this thread exists.

More importantly, it's going to be important to continue looking at talents and specs from the standpoint of how they are going to scale with gear come next tier(s) of itemization. That is probably the biggest concern with a spec like 0/32/39 imo, because it really doesn't look like a build that is going to scale that well.

If anything, it strikes me that a build like 0/32/39 is a heck of a lot more awkward than most considering we're taking a melee class and trying to funnel as much damage through damage sources that are not scaling whatsoever off weapon DPS. That is going to be a big concern going forward; at some point itemization is simply not going to support you very well if you're trying to ride one particular stat (in this case STR/AP) to prop up the majority of your DPS. Were that not the case Affliction would have been a lot better off in the past.

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how 0/32/39 scales worse with melee dps itemization than 0/4x/2x. There are many more unholy abilities that derive their damage from str/atk than from weapon damage. Frost abilities rely heavily on weapon damage. Is it not far easier to increase str/atk through multiple equipment slot upgrades than to increase weapon damage through 1-2 slots?

Just a quick run down of common frost/unholy dw abilities and talents and how they relate to attributes...

Crossover
Icy Touch - No equip modifiers
Blood Strike - 50% weapon damage (wep)
Death Strike - 60% weapon damage (wep)
Obliterate - 100% weapon damage (wep)
Death Coil - modified by attack power (str/atk)

Unholy
Morbidity - +5-15% Blood Strike damage, see Death Coil (str/atk)
Ravenous Dead (Ghoul) - 60% str and stm (str)
Ravenous Dead (Self) - +3% str (str)
Necrosis - Auto attack damage (wep/str/atk/crit)
Blood Caked Blade - 25% weapon damage (wep)
Shadow of Death - +2% str (str)
Impurity - Spell damage increased by 5-25% atack power (str/atk)
Gargoyle - modified by attack power (str/atk)
Plague Strike - 30% weapon damage (wep)
Corpse Explosion - modified by attack power (str/atk)
Crypt Fever - No equip modifiers

Frost
Icy Talons - modified by attack power (str/atk)
Annihilation - No equip modifiers
Black Ice - No equip modifiers
Nerves of Steel - +15% off hand damage (wep/str/atk/crit)
Killing Machine - No equip modifiers
Rime - No equip modifiers
Merciless Combat - No equip modifiers
Blood of the North - +3-15% Blood Strike damage, see Blood Strike (wep)
Frost Strike - 60% weapon damage (wep)
Howling Blast - modified by attack power (str/atk)

I would think this indicates that an unholy biased dw build would scale far better to melee dps equipment upgrades than a dw build favoring frost.

If I'm completely off base here, please let me know.

Edit: Added Icy Talons, Howling Blast, and Corpse Explosion info from DK DPS Compendium thread. Game tooltips do not indicate any attribute contributions for these skills. Even with the additions, the point still stands.

Shalymar · 12/18/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Cronar

Does your rotation change with Rime procs? I think it would make sense if rime procced on the first or second rotation to immediately follow HB with OBL.

Yes, right now I am going to try the macro Grigori posted.

#showtooltip Howling Blast
/run if UnitMana('player') < 60 then CancelUnitBuff('player','Freezing Fog') end
/use Howling Blast

Originally Posted by skeldi

I don't think the problem is bladed armor so much as the lack of Dark Conviction. Dark Conviction increases KM uptime as well as increases overall crit. Wouldn't that (plus the minor increase in AP from Bladed Armor) be > than 5 points in Impurity + 5 elsewhere?

With 15 points into the Blood talent tree you gain:
Butchery - Generate 20 runic power per death, 2 runic power per 5 sec in combat.
Subversion - Critical strike chance of Blood Strike, Heart Strike and Obliterate by 9%, reduces threat by 25%.
Bladed Armor - Increases attack power by 5 for every 180 armor value.
Dark Conviction - Increases critically hit by 5%.

You loose these:
Reaping - Blood Strike / Blood Boil - Blood Rune becomes a Death Rune
Master of Ghouls - Ghoul summoned pet and is under your control
Desecration - Your Plague Strikes cause Desecrated Ground effect - 5% additional
Crypt Fever - Your diseases cause Crypt Fever, increases disease damage by 30%.
Bone Shield - Takes 40% less damage / deals 2% more damage with all attacks, spells and abilities.

It is much more than just those 5-10 points. Now some might have points in other places besides Desecration however

IMHO…

Butcher is worthless. With a DW build I seem to have plenty of Runic Power coming from Icy Touch and Howling Blast. Sometimes I can’t use it fast enough.

Subversion is nice for Blood Strike but I only use it twice in a 20 sec rotation and my top 3 dps abilities are auto attack, howling blast and icy touch in that order. I never use Oblit because I don’t have Annihilation and I would rather spend my 1UR and 1FR on Howling Blast. That 9% crit strike chance doesn’t affected any of my top three damage abilities so it seems like a waste expect for the threat reduction.

Bladed Armor is so, so, you need a ton of armor rating for it to even be worth those 5 points and you already spent 5 on two other talents not worth a lot to get it.

Dark Conviction is nice, I agree with you that it does help KM, but it cost me so much on talents which don’t help a lot just to get it.

Now.. by going 39 or 40 into Unholy I gain:

Reaping. This talent is huge, so many people don’t seem to realize how important this talent is for what these three points give you. I will explain.

Reaping allows me to cast two extra Icy Touch spells in my rotation for a total of four and it has the second highest APC value just behind Death Coil. Almost everyone who spec frost for DW picks these talents which all affect IT.

Improved Icy Touch - 30% more damage
Black Ice - Increases your Frost damage by 30%
Glacier Rot - 10% more damage
Killing Machine - 50% chance your next Icy Touch will Crit
Chill of the Grave - Generate 5 additional runic power
Rime – 15% critical strike chance of your Icy Touch
Glyph of Icy Touch - 10 additional runic power (60 RP total from CotG and Glyph)

Blood Strike gains a 9% crit strike change and an over all crit strike chance of 5% or all of that I just listed above which affects Icy Touch, and some which affect Howling Blast.

And I haven’t even covered the permanent pet (Master of Ghouls), 7% more damage with all attacks, spells and abilities (Desecration/ Bone Shield) and increases disease damage by 30% (Crypt Fever).

It is just my opinion, but you seem to trade a lot of potential dps upgrades by using 15 points in the blood tree just to get Dark Conviction.

Originally Posted by Zolak

I was browsing the wow forums this morning, and saw a new monster DW build. This build pumped out 5300 dps on Patchwerk, and there are still some sub-optimal choices made for talents (corpse explosion, necrosis, etc.)

0/32/39. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Dual Wield Builds

Torrential · 12/18/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jynavi

Icy Touch - No equip modifiers
Howling Blast - No equip modifiers

Both of these are modified by AP.

See Death Knight: PvE DPS

Jynavi · 12/18/08, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Torrential

Both of these are modified by AP.

See Death Knight: PvE DPS

Damn Blizzard for lack of tooltip continuity! According to that info, Corpse Explosion is also modified by atk.

But, the point still remains.

RogueLeaderX · 12/18/08, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Chandon

Has anyone confirmed the behavior of crypt fever on a target also affected by ebon plague? Anyone who has played an unholy spec can attest that only one DK can apply and benefit from ebon plague on the target. If there is already an ebon plague up, can a DK only spec'd for crypt fever apply that crypt fever? And vice versa? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer to this question anywhere in the thread and I suspect it is something on a lot of people's minds.

I personally prefer to play 0/32/39, but I would at least consider switching to a tri-spec if I knew that I couldn't reliably count on the third disease for my BCB etc.

Here's two patchwerk attempts my guild did. In the first I'm the only DK with EP:

Faustine only EP

In the second I've respecced to CF because one of the other DK's copied my spec point for point

Faustine CF, other DK EP

My only upgrade between the two is the T7.5 chest, which gave me the 2pc. bonus for SS. My SS damage does go up, but not by 5%. I'm honestly not quite certain what to make of it, because I honestly can't figure out how my SS hit that hard with the way the attack's tooltip reads. I don't get how 60% weapon damage + 476.25 as shadow damage = a 6.6k or 6.8k crit. There must be some buff I'm forgetting to factor in because the best I've been able to do is ~3.7k crit with my maths. Assuming my raid buffed AP of ~3.8k and rounding to three places:

(3800 AP / 14) = 271.429 [dps from AP] + 186.5 [weapon dps] = 457.99 [total dps]

457.99 * 3.3 [attack speed] = 1511.367 [avg. damage] * .6 = 906.82 [SS base damage]

906.82 + 476.25 [bonus damage from diseases] = 1383.07

1353.093 * 1.05 [2pc bonus] = 1452.224

1452.224 * 1.13 [EP damage bonus] = 1641.013

1641.013 * 1.15 [Blood Presence] = 1887.165

1887.165 * 2.678 [Crit modifier from talents and meta] = 5053.827

If I assume my mirror of truth proc'd and I have a 10% AP boost I'm coming up with a 5.8k crit.

Obviously I messed up somewhere. So I'm having a hard time telling if my SS would be doing even more damage if we had only one Unholy DK or if I was getting the bonus damage for having a 3rd disease. Perhaps someone who has this figured out already can help? I'm trying to figure it out so I can determine if we should have multiple unholy builds (DW or 2h) in a raid.

(I originally assumed EP wouldn't effect SS but my numbers were coming up so short I tried adding it in.)

Edit: I modified the crit value to be (2 * 1.3 * 1.03) instead of (2 + .3 + .03) but I'm still a couple of thousand short.

Edit: Corrected weapon speed based on A treatis on Weapon Speed. Added in blood presence. If I assume my trinket proc'd and I had a 10% AP boost the number jumps to ~5.8k but I'm still 1k off. If my reverse math is correct I'd have to have over 7k AP to achieve a 6.8k crit. The best I can figure, if I had a RofFC and Trinket proc at the same time, is 6k AP. I know I'm still doing something wrong.

Reebz · 12/18/08, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zolak

I was browsing the wow forums this morning, and saw a new monster DW build. This build pumped out 5300 dps on Patchwerk, and there are still some sub-optimal choices made for talents (corpse explosion, necrosis, etc.)

0/32/39. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The dude who cracked 5k DPS was pretty geared out, but there is good synergy here and not a lot of bloat. Gargoyle, perma-ghoul, heavy frost damage, rime, killing machine (actually put to good use), and 3 diseases on target for heavier strikes. rp dump is obviously gargoyle, and death coil if permitted.

Anyway, this spec is at least worth a bit of discussion...there's definitely some potential with this build. I might allocate talents a little differently, leaning more towards extra mobility to get yourself back on target quicker (referring back to Zurm's posts about the value of unholy aura).

I hate to pull the auditor card, but can we see some WWS reports or at the very least a Recount screenshot.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time that a DW build is claimed to be doing 5.2-5.4k DPS, and they are different builds each time.

It would be great to get some real figures around these claims.

ranalin · 12/18/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zolak

I was browsing the wow forums this morning, and saw a new monster DW build. This build pumped out 5300 dps on Patchwerk, and there are still some sub-optimal choices made for talents (corpse explosion, necrosis, etc.)

I thought it had been proven that Necrosis was a must have? Or did i get confused and it was decided that it wasn't worth it?

Either way i'm having a hard time to drop it from my build with it 5-7% of my dmg.

Melchior · 12/18/08, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jynavi

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how 0/32/39 scales worse with melee dps itemization than 0/4x/2x. There are many more unholy abilities that derive their damage from str/atk than from weapon damage. Frost abilities rely heavily on weapon damage. Is it not far easier to increase str/atk through multiple equipment slot upgrades than to increase weapon damage through 1-2 slots?

Just a quick run down of common frost/unholy dw abilities and talents and how they relate to attributes...

My main concern with the build is probably crit scaling.

Both the Gargoyle and the Ghoul get nothing from our crit rating (from what I can tell, anyway). You don't really get any significant crit multipliers with the build, so the other main damage sources (IT/HB) aren't going to scale as well with crit as a build that goes 40+ for the multipliers, and the tertiary sources either are incapable of critting (BCB) or are just going to scale really poorly (BS, PS). Killing Machine already gives your two primary non-pet sources near 100% crit rate with the current itemization, so your gains there aren't going to be that large either moving into the next tier of raid gear.

What the build really only scales well off of is STR/AP. Haste will do alright but will still enhance less than 50% of your overall damage; an improvement over 2H haste scaling but not fantastic, either. My concern with putting all your eggs into the STR/AP basket is that itemization simply isn't going to be in your favor; they simply don't itemize those stats heavily enough (nor any other stat in particular) so it's only going to stack so far. With the pets not gleaning anything from our haste, crit or weapon DPS, and the other primary damage sources not scaling with haste, weapon DPS and poorly (by comparison) from crit, I think there is reason to be concerned looking forward. It's similar to what happened with Affliction in Burning Crusade; the build simply wasn't able to reap the advantages of as much of the increased itemization moving from tier to tier to the point where it fell behind very quickly to the crit, haste and multiplier advantages of Destruction.

Maybe coming from a Warlock I'm a bit more paranoid about the issue.

Shalymar · 12/18/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Reebz

I hate to pull the auditor card, but can we see some WWS reports or at the very least a Recount screenshot.

This is the 2nd or 3rd time that a DW build is claimed to be doing 5.2-5.4k DPS, and they are different builds each time.

It would be great to get some real figures around these claims.

Here is your screen shot

Shalymar · 12/18/08, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jynavi

Just a quick run down of common frost/unholy dw abilities and talents and how they relate to attributes...

Crossover
Icy Touch - No equip modifiers
Blood Strike - 50% weapon damage (wep)
Death Strike - 60% weapon damage (wep)
Obliterate - 100% weapon damage (wep)
Death Coil - modified by attack power (str/atk)

Unholy
Morbidity - +5-15% Blood Strike damage, see Death Coil (str/atk)
Ravenous Dead (Ghoul) - 60% str and stm (str)
Ravenous Dead (Self) - +3% str (str)
Necrosis - Auto attack damage (wep/str/atk/crit)
Blood Caked Blade - 25% weapon damage (wep)
Shadow of Death - +2% str (str)
Impurity - Spell damage increased by 5-25% atack power (str/atk)
Gargoyle - modified by attack power (str/atk)
Plague Strike - 30% weapon damage (wep)
Corpse Explosion - No equip modifiers
Crypt Fever - No equip modifiers

Frost
Icy Talons - No equip modifiers
Annihilation - No equip modifiers
Black Ice - No equip modifiers
Nerves of Steel - +15% off hand damage (wep/str/atk/crit)
Killing Machine - No equip modifiers
Rime - No equip modifiers
Merciless Combat - No equip modifiers
Blood of the North - +3-15% Blood Strike damage, see Blood Strike (wep)
Frost Strike - 60% weapon damage (wep)
Howling Blast - No equip modifiers

I would think this indicates that an unholy biased dw build would scale far better to melee dps equipment upgrades than a dw build favoring frost.

If I'm completely off base here, please let me know.

Attack Power coefficient

Blood Boil _________ 0.04
Blood Plague _______ 0.055
Bloodworms _________ 0.006 *
Corpse Explosion ___ 0.0475 **
Death and Decay ____ 0.0475
Death Coil _________ 0.15
Frost Fever ________ 0.055
Howling Blast ______ 0.1
Summon Gargoyle ____ 0.42 (Gargoyle Strike) ***
Icy Touch __________ 0.1
Pestilence _________ 0.04
Strangulate ________ 0.06
Unholy Blight ______ 0.013

Edit: Torrential bet me too it, my internet must be running really slow today. I just saw that post.

Jynavi · 12/18/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by RogueLeaderX

My only upgrade between the two is the T7.5 chest, which gave me the 2pc. bonus for SS. My SS damage does go up, but not by 5%. I'm honestly not quite certain what to make of it, because I honestly can't figure out how my SS hit that hard with the way the attack's tooltip reads. I don't get how 60% weapon damage + 476.25 as shadow damage = a 6.6k or 6.8k crit. There must be some buff I'm forgetting to factor in because the best I've been able to do is ~3.7k crit with my maths. Assuming my raid buffed AP of ~3.8k and rounding to three places:

Did you factor in the passive DK ability Runic Focus? That could account for your coming up with roughly half of what you observed.

Orlgin · 12/18/08, 5:30 PM

You made several mistakes:

1) You don't count haste when you calculate total damage. You swing faster but your hits are exactly the same damage. Your weapon speed number should be 3.5.

2) A small mistake: it should be 476.25 instead of 476.5

3) I bet you have Sigil of Awareness which adds another 420 base damage.

4) Do you have Cinderglacier? Adding 30% to a Sinister Strike adds a lot of damage.

5) Are you using Blood Presence? I didn't see a 15% modifier at the end to account for this.

With a Cinderglacier proc using blood presence, you can see big numbers fly on the screen.

crimsonsentinel · 12/18/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Melchior

They're just ideas. That is why this thread exists.

More importantly, it's going to be important to continue looking at talents and specs from the standpoint of how they are going to scale with gear come next tier(s) of itemization. That is probably the biggest concern with a spec like 0/32/39 imo, because it really doesn't look like a build that is going to scale that well.

If anything, it strikes me that a build like 0/32/39 is a heck of a lot more awkward than most considering we're taking a melee class and trying to funnel as much damage through damage sources that are not scaling whatsoever off weapon DPS. That is going to be a big concern going forward; at some point itemization is simply not going to support you very well if you're trying to ride one particular stat (in this case STR/AP) to prop up the majority of your DPS. Were that not the case Affliction would have been a lot better off in the past.

Well, experimentation is great especially since the class is still new, but we're coming to the stages where we need to figure out if certain specs are simply better than others. There's a reason nobody brings subtlety rogues to raids, or frost mages. You can theorycraft all you want to increase the dps of certain specs, but in the end if they are inferior, they are not worth bringing to the raid.

So that's why I have to ask, if you really thing GoG+FS frost builds do more damage than 31+/35+ builds, then wouldn't it be better to just ditch DW and go 2h? Yes, a 31/40 frost/unholy emphasizes spell damage more. It seems pretty obvious that a character with crappier weapon damage will go for spells that don't rely on...high weapon damage. Am I saying it's going to do well or scale at all? Of course not. I'm simply saying that if you're using a build that emphasizes weapon based skills, you should probably use a stronger weapon (aka 2 hander).

I think we are a bit disadvantaged because there are no mathematical models or simulators available for DW dps. That doesn't mean that we can't start dong the math required to find out:

1) Is DW competitive dps?
2) If so, is it by emphasizing spell damage (by going deep unholy) or by emphasizing crit damage (by going deep frost)?
3) Would, by using the same or similar type build, a person using a 2 hander do more dps than DW?
3) Will DW scale well with gear? AKA: will DW be competitive dps in tier 9?