3) Will DW scale well with gear? AKA: will DW be competitive dps in tier 9?
At this point I'm not sure this is a worthwhile question. Ulduar isn't even on the PTR, which means we're looking at least 1-1.5 months before we get at T8. If a spec is good at T7 gear levels it'll be good for ~2 months. If, down the road, it turns out there are scaling issues you can change specs. That's a ways away though.
I was reviewing the WoWMeters from one of our recent heroic Naxx raids to compare my performance to the other DKs in our raid. While comparing disease uptime between myself and the others, I noticed that, being a 0/31/40 DW build, I had roughly 30% fewer Frost Fever ticks. At first I figured this must be a mistake because I spam Icy Touch more than any other ability. So I reviewed the actual combat logs and something really obvious occurred to me that, unless I missed it, hasn't been discussed regarding these builds:
Frequent casts of Icy Touch resulting from Death Rune conversion reset the Frost Fever disease causing a significant DPS loss from DoTs.
Now, when you compare the total damage output from Icy Touch, it significantly outweighs the loss from Frost Fever. But when you expand that to viewing overall damage, it's still 30k (based on my crappy gear, more obviously for geared players) on a single boss fight, which would be nice to have back.
So it made me start reconsidering rotation in the context not so much of "Are Frost Fever and Blood Plague always up?" mentality, but "Is my rotation allowing maximization of my disease ticks?" Lately I've been attempting to use two GCD (with Unholy Presence) between each Icy Touch or Plague Strike, to get that first tick in before refreshing, but as Death Runes start coming up and the Gargoyle comes out, it becomes harder and harder to allow those ticks to hit without sacrificing a larger portion of our DPS. This alone might lend credence to choosing Blood Presence over Unholy Presence, but I still find my DPS lower in Blood because of white damage and Killing Machine loss.
Granted we're talking about 2-3% of DPS, but we choose our talents to eek out that extra 2-3%, shouldn't it be as important to squeeze it out of our rotations as well? Anyone have thoughts or experience on managing this?
Frequent casts of Icy Touch resulting from Death Rune conversion reset the Frost Fever disease causing a significant DPS loss from DoTs.
This is something the IT spammers knew going in (I hope). What it comes down to is that spamming IT is greater damage than letting it tick, and also greater damage the other uses for those runes (blood strike, Oblit). In perfect world casting IT would just add time back to the DoT, not start it over, but that's just not how (most) DoTs work.
I was reviewing the WoWMeters from one of our recent heroic Naxx raids to compare my performance to the other DKs in our raid. While comparing disease uptime between myself and the others, I noticed that, being a 0/31/40 DW build, I had roughly 30% fewer Frost Fever ticks. At first I figured this must be a mistake because I spam Icy Touch more than any other ability. So I reviewed the actual combat logs and something really obvious occurred to me that, unless I missed it, hasn't been discussed regarding these builds:
Frequent casts of Icy Touch resulting from Death Rune conversion reset the Frost Fever disease causing a significant DPS loss from DoTs.
Now, when you compare the total damage output from Icy Touch, it significantly outweighs the loss from Frost Fever. But when you expand that to viewing overall damage, it's still 30k (based on my crappy gear, more obviously for geared players) on a single boss fight, which would be nice to have back.
So it made me start reconsidering rotation in the context not so much of "Are Frost Fever and Blood Plague always up?" mentality, but "Is my rotation allowing maximization of my disease ticks?" Lately I've been attempting to use two GCD (with Unholy Presence) between each Icy Touch or Plague Strike, to get that first tick in before refreshing, but as Death Runes start coming up and the Gargoyle comes out, it becomes harder and harder to allow those ticks to hit without sacrificing a larger portion of our DPS. This alone might lend credence to choosing Blood Presence over Unholy Presence, but I still find my DPS lower in Blood because of white damage and Killing Machine loss.
Granted we're talking about 2-3% of DPS, but we choose our talents to eek out that extra 2-3%, shouldn't it be as important to squeeze it out of our rotations as well? Anyone have thoughts or experience on managing this?
Its a poor fight I know, but Wow Web Stats shows pretty much what you do in a 2h build. DWing is easy - keep Frost Fever up, Howling Blast every six seconds (6.1 seconds is a dps loss) and, in the event that your HB is on cooldown, Icy Touch for pretty much a guaranteed 6k. I will never not Icy Touch if its up and HB is down - within 30 seconds (DR refresh time) you've done the damage of letting 6 Frost Fevers run its course.
note: Thats all single target damage, unless a Blaze spawned on the drake I was deepsing.
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Rotations with potentially higher Frost Fever uptime have already been posted, and commented as such, e.g.
Rotation:
PS>IT>HB>dc>BS>BS
...
dc>HB>PS>IT>dc>HB
PS>IT>dc>HB>BS>BS
*Do line 1 once, then repeat line 2+3. Full rotation is 12 GCD.
from Grigori ("optimized" for 0/32/39, where 100% Desecration uptime requires 2x PS), or
PS>IT>BS>HB>BS>dc
dc>HB>IT>IT>dc>HB
from Herb (very likely better for 10/31/30, since using IT over PS is a huge damage upgrade (more than 5%*); requires Pestilence).
Basically, any rotation squeezing in 3x HB will have higher FF uptime, and yields higher yellow damage to start with.
On a sidenote: however badly Bladed Armor scales (once you have aquired ilevel 200 epics, armor values are almost stagnating), at T7 it's still worth 5%+ yellow damage*: combined with the higher damage rotation, 10/31/30 and 0/32/39 are very, very close.
*) assuming 5600 AP and a 170 dps x 2.6 speed weapon
Thanks Herb. I've glossed over many of the rotations in favor of the talent related posts, so I appreciate your redirection to that! Also, like Torrential said, it's definitely something that should have occurred to me earlier. This is my first time playing a DoT based class and it just wasn't something I had thought about.
I think it warrants pointing out for anyone else (like myself) that's not on board, just because Unholy Presence gives you a GCD every second doesn't mean it's in your best DPS interest to use it. I know now that one of my biggest issues in trying to figure out how to maximize FF ticks until getting those responses to my last post was assuming that I should be using an ability every opportunity, which obviously makes it difficult to maintain any kind of sensible rotation. I figure if this is a significant paradigm shift for me, it's hopefully something that will help other readers in my situation to make that same connection and up their game, even if it doesn't move the discussion forward for those of you on the forefront of TCing this.
Thanks for hitting me over the head with that info, it probably would've taken me a bit longer otherwise.
I've been toying around with different DW specs, and so far I'm liking the 0/31/40 (desecration/bone shield/NotD/no rime) spec. But I have noticed that my white dmg done compared to total damage is still hoving around 30%. because of this, i was wondering how important Hit Rating is after i have reached the hit cap/spellhit cap. Is it worth stacking more hit rating when all it affects is my white damage?
Has anyone tried out a DW spec that goes 50 in Frost? The bonus from Tundra Stalker seems pretty powerful, but it's going to cost you at least the perma-ghoul and Impurity, and should you want the Subversion threat reduction (which I think it a little undervalued; I think come next tier of raiding it will probably be necessary to have some form) you'll wind up coughing up the gargoyle as well (though this is only a factor on some fights).
If I remember correctly, dropping Impurity for Tundra Stalker is a net damage loss of ~6% for IT and ~9% for HB (in trade for a 10% boost to your strikes). Unless you are running either a really bad rotation or a really bad priority system, IT+HB will be well over 50% of your spell+strike damage.
To put things in perspective for DW, even using the new FS glyph, with a 4xFS rotation (and IT glyph for -10% IT damage) like this...
IT>PS>HB>fs>BS>BS
HB>fs>IT>fs>HB>fs
...your IT+HB is still almost 2/3 of your spell+strike damage.
0/43/27+1 DW builds have some enticing advantages over 0/31/37+3 DW builds, but looking at the numbers, 0/50/19+2 will probably remain primarily a 2H possibility for now. For DW, 0/50/19+2 looks like anywhere from giving up MoG for nothing to giving up MoG to do less damage personally. If you are dead-set on threat reduction, the 1/31/37+2 variants give up less power for it.
Originally Posted by Herb
PS>IT>BS>HB>BS>dc
dc>HB>IT>IT>dc>HB
Unfortunately, 3xHB+3xIT in 12 GCD rotations do not work (in the sense that they are not tight rotations).
The rotation listed above uses the second Unholy Rune two GCDs apart in the two Rune sets, whereas the maximum separation for a tight rotation is one GCD.
As a side note, during periods where you anticipate significant interruptions, you can switch to this rotation...
IT>PS>HB>dc>BS>BS
HB>dc>IT>dc>IT>IT
...to avoid paying re-synch costs (Epidemic required, of course).
Maybe something like 0/31/40 to run the above rotation in movement fights. In addition to not being bound by aggregated Rune pair usage, the BS>HB>dc>IT>dc>IT>IT sequence gives you over 10+ sec of continued rotation execution from up to 30 yards away. An extra 10% crit on IT is good when not in melee contact for KM procs, but even a single GCD delay in execution because you don't have the extra 10 yards will cost you a lot more DPS.
I just read the latest patch notes for the PTR on MMO-Champion, and it blew my mind. Howling Blast has had it's cooldown removed. I think it goes without saying that this is an amazing boost to Frost and DW builds. The Glyph of Icy Touch has also been changed so that it no longer reduces IT damage.
So for a 0/32/39 build, or any build with HB really, I imagine it could use the same rotation as 2h frost, using HB instead of oblit. More HB per rotation, a more reasonable way to deal with Rime procs, and in light of the recent discussion, less IT spam for fewer wasted FF ticks (although I don't think thats really much of an issue to begin with).
I'm not really sure what prompted this change, Howling Blast is pretty awesome as it is. The amount of AoE DPS you could do with no cooldown is insane, not even mentioning single-target. HB always felt to me like it was an ability that should have a CD. Perhaps I'm just over-estimating HB's capabilities, but I'd almost be surprised to see this go live.
There are 2 things I am wondering about these changes however. First, I wonder if it would be ideal to go deeper into frost now? I'm not a big fan of the 0/44/27 type build, but with more HB I have to wonder if the extra crit damage from Guile of Gorefiend would be the way to go. The other is regarding the new IT sigil they are introducing (Sigil of Frozen Conscience). Using a rotation with 4x IT with Death Runes, that would be an amaing Sigil, but would it be better than a chance to proc 173 crit if we end up using HB instead of extra ITs?
I was mapping out some rotations in my head because of this change, and some interesting issues arise. For a 0-3/3x/3x build (with reaping), you can theoretically use HB for 3 attacks in a row. Something like PS->IT->BS->BS->HB->DC followed by HB->HB->HB->DC->DC. The only issue with this is that without epidemic, Frost Fever will probably fall off before the last HB due to lag (or it will come dangerously close), and during the second RP dump period your diseases aren't running. This means one point in epidemic, possibly two, would be nearly required, and points in unholy can be kind of tight. I am curious to see if a rotation like this would be worth it regardless of the time where your diseases are down. It comes down to whether the bonus HB damage outweighs the lost BCB damage due to the time where diseases are down. Also, I was having no issues keeping up a mock rotation (using DS instead of HB on live server) in Blood Presence, no need for the GCD reduction of Unholy. Another benefit of this is that the vast majority of abilities in the rotation (all but PS and BS) have a decent range so it would aid DPS in movement fights.
Just some food for thought, the change seems to open up a lot of room for different DW rotations depending on spec.
Originally Posted by Random Tard
well... let's just say the numbers coming off the screen for the next 10 seconds were "jizzable".
I was mapping out some rotations in my head because of this change, and some interesting issues arise. For a 0-3/3x/3x build (with reaping), you can theoretically use HB for 3 attacks in a row. Something like PS->IT->BS->BS->HB->DC followed by HB->HB->HB->DC->DC. The only issue with this is that without epidemic, Frost Fever will probably fall off before the last HB due to lag (or it will come dangerously close), and during the second RP dump period your diseases aren't running. This means one point in epidemic, possibly two, would be nearly required, and points in unholy can be kind of tight. I am curious to see if a rotation like this would be worth it regardless of the time where your diseases are down. It comes down to whether the bonus HB damage outweighs the lost BCB damage due to the time where diseases are down. Also, I was having no issues keeping up a mock rotation (using DS instead of HB on live server) in Blood Presence, no need for the GCD reduction of Unholy. Another benefit of this is that the vast majority of abilities in the rotation (all but PS and BS) have a decent range so it would aid DPS in movement fights.
Just some food for thought, the change seems to open up a lot of room for different DW rotations depending on spec.
With IT Glyph and Sigil it should be better to pull a more IT based rotation. Without cooldown you are practically overflowing with HBs through Rime procs.
Something like: PS>IT>BS>BS>HB>Dump -> HB>HB>IT>IT>Dump and HB on every Rime proc
Didn't think about GCD issues or overflowing RP yet, but this change to HB appears to strong on first glance.
Edit: For 0/32/39 you probably want to replace the first HB in the second row with PS>IT, but this definitely gives GCD issues with Rime procs.
Edit(again): For 0/44/27....what about starting out with a Death Rune through Rune Tap and dropping PS completely? Something like: IT>HB>BS>HB>Dump repeat.
* Howling Blast had its cooldown removed.
* Glyph of Icy Touch - Your Icy Touch generates 10 additional runic power. (Old - Also reduced damage of Icy Touch by 10%)
* Howling Blast had its cooldown removed.
* Glyph of Icy Touch - Your Icy Touch generates 10 additional runic power. (Old - Also reduced damage of Icy Touch by 10%)
Wow, that's great buff for HB!
so, if this Changes go live, i think 0/32/39 (rimed) will be greatly buffed.
Rime will no longer kill the Rotation, because you just spam one more HB
i think there will be then an alternative rotation, using the death runes for HB instead of IT
IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-DC
IT-PS-HB-HB-(RP dump)
so if im right we should get one more GCD because we use one GCD for the Death Runes (HB) instead of two (2x IT) in the "normal" Rotation.
there i think we could use another HB (rime) or Horn of Winter for Runepower and buffing
Move points around, especially the ones in OAPH (I take those for personal preference.)
The HB change benefits 32/39 the same as any deeper Frost spec, so it won't really change them in comparison. However the combination of having more GCDs and Frost Strike costing 8 RP less *could* make a difference, from my numbers 32/39 still looks slightly better though.
The HB change benefits 32/39 the same as any deeper Frost spec, so it won't really change them in comparison. However the combination of having more GCDs and Frost Strike costing 8 RP less *could* make a difference, from my numbers 32/39 still looks slightly better though.
Oh no, FS is there just as a filler talent. DC is still the primary RP dump.
But link me to 32/39 so I can analyze it.
Also, I have a sinking suspicion that Blizz nerfed the hell out of HB's coefficient.
I hope the HB change doesn't turn out to be extremely overpowered AoE-wise. To be honest, being able to cast HB 3 times in a row doesn't sound very balanced but we'll see.
It definitely smoothens our rotation, however, and makes Freezing Fog finally useful.
Oh no, FS is there just as a filler talent. DC is still the primary RP dump.
But link me to 32/39 so I can analyze it.
Also, I have a sinking suspicion that Blizz nerfed the hell out of HB's coefficient.
If you're using FS as a filler only, going so deep into Frost isn't worth it. 32 RP Frost Strikes should definitely beat DC anyway.
If the change goes through, we'll have a new question:
HB OR ITx2 on Dead Runes?
Noncrit ITx2 will do more damage, however HB costs one GCD less and has a higher average crit chance than ITx2 because the second IT will most likely not benefit from a Killing Machine proc. As ITx2 gives twice the Runic Power and HB costs half the GCDs, you'll probably want to adjust depending on the question if you're missing the RP or the GCDs to use DC.
If you're using FS as a filler only, going so deep into Frost isn't worth it. 32 RP Frost Strikes should definitely beat DC anyway.
If the change goes through, we'll have a new question:
HB OR ITx2 on Dead Runes?
Noncrit ITx2 will do more damage, however HB costs one GCD less and has a higher average crit chance than ITx2 because the second IT will most likely not benefit from a Killing Machine proc. As ITx2 gives twice the Runic Power and HB costs half the GCDs, you'll probably want to adjust depending on the question if you're missing the RP or the GCDs to use DC.
The reason I go that deep is to make up for not picking up some of the early blood talents (Bladed Armor and Subversion)
I don't see anything good in Unholy worth picking up instead, with the possible exception of Crypt Fever.
With BotN you get the obligatory Death Rune conversion.
Frost Strike and UA are essentially filler, but UA in particular has its place.
Tundra Stalker increases all damage by 10% for about 95% of the time (With me in particular, my diseases might not be up for 5% of the time, probably less.)
I'll address Frost Strike. I don't particularly think it's any good for DW, but that was before I noticed the glyph.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Take RP mastery for an extra Frost Strike (Unless that pushes it into my rotation, which it probably will but i'll find out when i get on the PTR to test stuff.)
I am afraid that with HB change DW specs will blow 2h specs away. Also DW will now be VERY close to Unholy playstyle - ghoul + garg + SS... err HB spam with free HB's from Rime but without SS glyph.
For builds I think 0/32/39 will win the fight:
- Bone Shield is still great
- NotD seems quite required given how much damage comes from ghoul
- one point in CF for BCB boost
If you would go 0/44/27 you loose above not to mention you need to find additional GCDs for 32RP FS.
All in all I like Unholy now and "new" 0/32/39 seems to copy that playstyle with even more aoe. Definitely worth trying and dying on trash due to lack of threat reduction
By the way, Crypt Fever and Ebon Plague stacks, giving up to 69% additional disease damage to DKs/SPs so speccing 3/3 Crypt Fever is a nice raid DPS boost as well.
12/18/08, 6:12 PM
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