I think you might have your rune cooldown timing wrong. For example, you have yourself leading off with a FS at the 0.0 mark, and correctly noting that this rune will be available for use a second time at the 10.0 point (10 second gap). However, as we move through your progression, your timing slips. So, for example, when you use a HB at the 3.0 mark, you note incorrectly that these runes will reset at the 12.0 mark - 9 seconds later. By the time we reach the BS at the end of your first rotation (the 6.0 mark), you have a death rune coming back at the 14.0 mark - 8 seconds later.
Not sure if you want to review in light of that - maybe all that does is push everything back a few seconds. Just wanted to point out that your rotation, as described, doesn't seem to work.
Also - since this is intended to start combat, is there any reason not to blood tap and go in with 2F 2U 1B 1D?
Final note: I would suggest the Pestilience Glyph over the Raise Dead Glyph. Saving reagents is nice on the pocketbook, but not a helpful DPS tool. Increasing the radius of Pestilience is very useful, especially since I assume that in multi-target fights, you'd want to use your blood rune on a Pestilience over a Blood Strike - both come back as Death Runes, and you massively increase your Howling Blast damage by having all area targets infected with Frost Fever.
I think you have some of my key’s wrong. I lead off with Icy Touch. As far as the reset times, yeah I was moving things around so I forgot to update those values which through my timing off. However you are correct my timing was off a bit. Here is the update rotation.
I don’t know how stating off with an extra Death Run will help since I need to cast at least 2 Blood Strikes at the beginning of my rotation so I gain the death runes later. The Pestilience Glyph is a good idea. I might switch to that.
Combat Begins
Icy Touch ----- (1Frost Rune)-------------(0s)(+25 Runic Power Total:25)reset @ 10
Plague Strike - (1Unholy Rune)------------(1s)(+10 Runic Power Total:35)reset @ 11
Frost Strike -- (32 Runic Power)----------(2s)(-32 Runic Power Total:03)
Howling Blast - (1Unholy Rune/1Frost Rune)(3s)(+20 Runic Power Total:23)reset @ 13
Blood Strike -- (1Blood Rune)-------------(4s)(+10 Runic Power Total:33)reset @ 14 ** 1 Death Rune **
Frost Strike -- (32 Runic Power)----------(5s)(-32 Runic Power Total:01)
Blood Strike -- (1Blood Rune)-------------(6s)(+10 Runic Power Total:11)reset @ 16 ** 1 Death Rune **
7s - 9s - Auto Swing
There still isn't a conclusive "best" DW build. Still lots of good discussion about optimal builds and rotations.
lvl80 is probably the best time to start using DW.
For starter weapons, the Wrymrest honored [Fang of Truth] and Ebon Knights revered [Reaper of Dark Souls] are very easy to obtain DW starter weapons. By the time I finished Dragonblight and about 3/4 of Icecrown, I had the required faction for both without doing dailies or championing.
Personally I'm using two Fangs as I find the fast/fast combo to perform better with my 32/39 build.
Could you link your 32/39 build? I'm unsure as to if it's 32 blood 39 frost, or 32 frost 39 unholy, lol. And is Grasscutter any good compared to Fang of Truth?
@ Shalymar: Yes, sorry, I saw it was IT as the leadoff - typo.
The reason I like starting with an available Death Rune is that it gives you an extra Icy Touch early in your rotation (and thus an earlier chance at an extra Rime Proc, better damage, more RP, etc). What do you think of this:
Start Condition: 2F - 2U - 1B - 1D
Combat Begins
0.0 IT - (1F)(+25 RP (25)) reset @ 10.0
1.0 PS - (1U)(+10 RP (35)) reset @ 11.0
2.0 Either BS (if one target) or Pest (if 2+ targets) - (1B)(+10 RP (45)) death @ 12.0
Here is our first difference. You go for an immediate FS at the 2.0 mark, but why rush? Why not get your runes cooling faster? Put your first BS here (or, if there is a second target, pestilence instead - you still get a death rune, but you'll get frost fever on all other targets for the upcoming HBs). You've started the rune recharge, and are in no rush to FS anyway - plenty of time coming for that.
3.0 HB - (1U/1F)(+20 RP (65)) reset @ 13.0
4.0 IT - (1D)(+25 RP (90)) reset @ 14.0
Here is why I popped blood tap pre-pull. Instead of having to Blood Strike at the 4.0 mark, as in your rotation, I can snap off a second Icy Touch instead (better damage, more runic power generation and another shot at a rime proc). Now I'm sitting at 90 Runic Power and can burn it off:
5.0 FS - (n/a)(-32 RP (58))
6.0 FS - (n/a)(-32 RP (26))
7.0 No specials
8.0 No specials
9.0 No specials
I've had 2 chances at a rime proc (instead of 1) and all my runes will be back up at 14.0 (instead of 16.0).
On the back half, I do the same thing - burn runes asap. My 'wasted' GCD is a little sooner (10.0 vs. 12.0), but this is made up for in DPS by having my second IT way back at 4.0, and HBs at 11.0 and 13.0 vs. 13.0 and 14.0.
10.0 No specials
11.0 HB - (1U/1F) (+20 RP (46)) reset at 21.0
12.0 FS - (n/a)(-32 RP (14))
13.0 HB - (1U/1F) (+20 RP (34)) reset at 23.0
14.0 FS - (n/a)(-32 RP (2))
15.0 IT - (1D) (+25 RP) (27)) reset at 25.0
16.0 Either BS (if one target) or Pest (if 2+ targets) - (1B)(+10 RP (37)) death @ 26.0
17.0 FS - (n/a)(-32 RP (5))
18.0 No specials
19.0 No specials
20.0 No specials
This isn't a *huge* difference, but I do prefer having the front loaded IT, and I also like to emphasize how pestilience can be a great investment of a blood rune if even one more mob is around to take frost fever (and thus, howling blast). Also, I'll have runes up *slightly* earlier than you, since I'll get HB runes back at 21.0 and 23.0 (versus 23.0 and 24.0).
Basically, I like the concept behind your rotation, but prefer to save FS's for when I have no valid runic options left (without capping of course), and also really love to 'spread the love' to other targets, for both DoTs and HB hits.
With the upcoming howling blast change I was thinking about switching to a deeper frost build and picking up GoG and Frost Strike, but while I was playing with the talent calculator I realized I could drop a point from Impurity and pick up Unbreakable armor. Something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Would using a frost rune to pick up the 10% strength bonus be worth the lost damage from icy touch? Or I could use a blood tap to essentially get it for free I suppose.
Edit: I'm currently playing with a 32/39 build, but big howling blasts make me drool. So besides the upcoming change, I was thinking of switching as long as it wasn't a DPS loss.
Edit2: How did I end up with on a pale horse...? Err, ignore that.
Conventional wisdom is to burn runes asap and then dump RP while you wait for your runes.
About the only time I thought it was a good idea to mix RP dumps into rune burning was to use use it after HB to try to work out allowing another HB after a rime proc. With the HB cooldown leaving that is no longer an issue, however.
There is an alternative rotation mentioned in the Frost DPS thread which could be modified for dual-wield builds, that I have not seen discussed in this thread. Working on the premise that IT, HB and FS are not really affected by the presence or lack of Blood Plague and starting with 1D 1B 2F 2U:
IT -> HB, HB, BS/Pestilence in whichever order -> Rime procs/FS -> repeat
Compared with the normal PS/IT rotation, you lose PS+BP+140 damage off HS as well as one disease for BCS, but gain one HB every 2 sets. For the 2H version, it's supposedly a DPS increase despite the disease loss for Oblit/HS, but I'm unsure as to how this will affect dualwielding.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
The HB change benefits 32/39 the same as any deeper Frost spec, so it won't really change them in comparison. However the combination of having more GCDs and Frost Strike costing 8 RP less *could* make a difference, from my numbers 32/39 still looks slightly better though.
Increased HB density from the HB change shifts the numbers in favor of 0/43/27+1, because 0/31/37+3 doesn't have GoG.
Originally Posted by Shalymar
BotN and Reaping/Crypt Fever to me they are a wash. The extra 15% damage to BS from BotN doesn’t overtake having the bonus damage from the extra disease counter when you have Crypt Fever. The damage difference between the two is so small I would just say they are equal.
Tundra Stalker vs. Bone Shield/Desecration, you can make an argument either way. Do you want +3% more damage and +5 expertise or do you want to slow targets by 50% and take 40% less damage but do 3% less damage over all. Other things to consider is Desecrated Ground doesn’t move and you have to keep casting Bone Shield.
So it really boils down to which is better Guile of Gorefiend (+45% BS and HB crit damage) vs. Master of Ghouls (permanent pet) and Impurity (25% Attack Power bonus)
Tundra Stalker is not really an option for DW builds because it competes directly with Impurity and MoG, when Impurity by itself will already beat Tundra Stalker to a fine pulp in a DW build even when using FS instead of DC (assuming your rotation or priority system does not suck). For 2H it may be competitive, but for DW going 50-deep into Frost looks quite bad. Deep Frost versus deep Unholy is more GoG+BotN(+FS) versus Desecration+Bone Shield+Crypt Fever(+NotD) depending on your exact build.
Originally Posted by Hidden
If the change goes through, we'll have a new question:
HB OR ITx2 on Dead Runes?
Noncrit ITx2 will do more damage, however HB costs one GCD less and has a higher average crit chance than ITx2 because the second IT will most likely not benefit from a Killing Machine proc. As ITx2 gives twice the Runic Power and HB costs half the GCDs, you'll probably want to adjust depending on the question if you're missing the RP or the GCDs to use DC.
I think the HB change favors 2xIT because Freezing Fog will be worth a lot more than it does now.
Originally Posted by Torrential
I just want to try and erase some preconceptions people have. Nobody should think DC > FS if dual wielding as solid fact. It is not. It is marginally better with 5/5 Impurity and worse in any other case. And that is *without* considering Mercielss Combat, Killing Machine, and GoG. All of which benefit FS and not DC. Frost strike is outright superior to DC, as it should be, as a deep talent.
When I ran the numbers for this rotation...
IT>PS>HB>dc>BS>BS
HB>dc>IT>PS>HB>dc
...in a 0/44/27 build, replacing DC with FS resulted in only a 2.8% damage increase in total ability damage (not including disease, ghoul, Auto Attack, BCB, etc.). Remember that, although FS looks a lot better in a direct comparison with DC, it eats Rime procs, significantly reducing the crit chance of IT and HB.
The FS glyph may also not turn out to be quite the boost to FS rotations as it may appear at first glance. Even right now, if you are using your abilities correctly, your average ability damage per GCD is significantly higher than one DC. This means that sustaining your rotation is more important than not letting your RP overflow (and if you are running on a priority system and your top priority is not letting RP overflow, you are probably not squeezing as much DPS out of your build as you can). When the HB CD is removed, RP will become even less valuable a resource for a DW FS rotation/priority system.
Right now, I am investigating the possibility of a 14-GCD-in-20-sec rotation capable of scaling with Haste Rating based on this conceptual sequence and Blood Presence:
PS>IT>dc>HB>PE>IT>[idle GCD]
dc>HB>dc>HB>PE>IT>dc
Specifically, the rotation will use resources from the greatly improved Freezing Fog to cover the [idle GCD]:
There is a 38.5875% chance for the rotation to gain a free HB (as opposed to a "free" HB replacing a DC for a 12-GCD equivalent). This puts the average damage per GCD for the rotation very close to that of a 12-GCD rotation (even with the [idle GCD] idling ~60% of the time), but with sufficient Haste Rating it gets 2 extra GCDs in 20 sec.
This essentially allows the player to take on roughly 351 to 466 Haste Rating (depending on your GCD-chaining situation) at slightly superior scaling to Crit Rating (the Haste Rating numbers are based on 0.37 sec loss and 0.62 sec loss respectively, which constitute the range I gathered experimentally from chaining 6 1.5-sec GCDs to see how much average time I have left before the first ability's Rune cools down).
Naturally, when a Freezing Fog HB displaces a DC, its RP will essentially be carried over to the [idle GCD] as a DC (making Runic Power Mastery a significant advantage for this build). A GoG build like this 0/44/27 is the obvious choice for this, because it will be harder for a heavy Unholy variant to find points for RPM while taking 3/3 Rime (plus Desecration uptime is low with only one PS).
The rotation is relatively simple in terms of execution, because every Rime decision is identical (choose between dc or HB after every IT once the rotation gets going).
A FS variant is not possible, of course, since FS is not a spell.
My two main concerns with 0/44/27 are threat (though I believe both Blood and Unholy presence still have .8 threat modifiers so it might be enough even in irregular encounters) and the perm-Ghoul survivability without Night of the Dead. Even in an optimal situation where the CD of Raise Dead is up before the encounter starts, you only get one more shot at resummoning one. Worse for things where you are learning encounters and you will likely only have one Ghoul up per attempt.
Also, when looking at Frost Strike, with the issue of it eating KM procs (which impacts HB and IT crit rate), would it be optimal then only to dump FS after each rune set, so the only KM proc that could be wasted would be one already up going into the following set of runes? I wonder if Unholy presence would be less affected by this because of the increased haste and ability to dump all RP with small windows to spare to generate a new KM proc before getting into each subsequent rune rotation.
Just to clarify on your previous statement regarding Tundra Stalker and Impurity, Impurity would represent roughly a 16% increase to IT and a 19% increase to HB? Is that correct?
I am looking to add desecration into my frost/unholy build but before I do I seem to have issues seeing a lot of boss ground affects over it, does anyone have a tip or some addon that can help with this. thanks for your help.
I tried to read the whole thread here but didnt find any information about deep Unholy DW builts like this.
I can´t realy get a clue how this is working and how this guy does this massive DPS.
I hops someone here can give me some hints
Really no one an Idea what this guy is doing here?
Tepesh: It's clear he was using the Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer trick with another DK to increase his disease and wandering plague damage so high. This is probably the primary source of his inflated damage.
It's also likely he summoned his gargoyle during a lucky Mirror/Greatness/Crusader double or triple proc, and got equally lucky with a couple other crits. It doesn't take much more than that to raise DPS so high over just a 3:19 fight.
It's clear he was using the Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer trick with another DK to increase his disease and wandering plague damage so high.
Please explain what you mean here we are a learning community so just stating he was using a "trick" and not explaining its mechanics is very vague.
It's also likely he summoned his gargoyle during a lucky Mirror/Greatness/Crusader double or triple proc, and got equally lucky with a couple other crits. It doesn't take much more than that to raise DPS so high over just a 3:19 fight.
Tepesh: It's clear he was using the Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer trick with another DK to increase his disease and wandering plague damage so high. This is probably the primary source of his inflated damage.
It's also likely he summoned his gargoyle during a lucky Mirror/Greatness/Crusader double or triple proc, and got equally lucky with a couple other crits. It doesn't take much more than that to raise DPS so high over just a 3:19 fight.
No idea what "trick" you are referring to, maybe you con explain this al litte further.
Actually i dont think any trick is the source of his damge, his disease and wandering plague dmg looks pretty much as many other wws of unholy dks i have seen so far. Een his Gargoyle is not doing alot more dmg than Gargoyles in many of the other wws floating around here.
Has anyone some general information about a deep unholy dw-specc and what a rotation would look like? All builts i have seen here depend much on the Frost-tree and especially HB.
He's talking about Crypt Fever stacking with Ebon Plaguebringer - one DK takes 3/3 Crypt Fever and 0/3 Ebon Plaguebringer, the two stack for +60% disease damage.
It's definitely playing a part as Gothya's average Frost Fever tick was over 1500.
On patch day, I believe I will be going heavy frost dual wield spec - 0/44/27 - if I don't go before it, as in tonight.
Once Howling Blast is off cooldown, my rotation (hopefully) will look like this:
--- code ---
Does anyone see any immediate, glaring problems with this that I've managed to miss?
If so, please let me know. Also, is my spec correct?
Thank you in advance.
This might be a noob error on my part (since I don't know much about dw) but you have spells listed every second, which suggests a 1s GCD. Is dw customarily in unholy presence? I thought for 2h at least that blood was better, but I'm guessing it's for KM procs ... or is it just a code error?
My two main concerns with 0/44/27 are threat (though I believe both Blood and Unholy presence still have .8 threat modifiers so it might be enough even in irregular encounters) and the perm-Ghoul survivability without Night of the Dead. Even in an optimal situation where the CD of Raise Dead is up before the encounter starts, you only get one more shot at resummoning one. Worse for things where you are learning encounters and you will likely only have one Ghoul up per attempt.
Indeed, the hardest part is passing up NotD.
0/43/27+1 is better for going 1/3 subversion, while 0/31/37+3 is better at going 2/3 or 3/3 Subversion. However, because Rime will be a much more powerful DPS boost when HB CD is removed, any point in Subversion for 0/31/37+3 comes at a very steep DPS cost. The 2-3 points in Subversion will come from either Rime, NotD, Crypt Fever, or Bone Armor, so we are talking about at least a 5% overall DPS loss.
Unholy Runes will be more valuable if HB CD is removed, so Desecration will be less effective. 0/43/27+1 gains more from higher HB density and can take RPM to cover multiple Rime procs in a single rotation more effectively. Obviously, 0/31/37+3 can run the 14-GCD as well, but you lose out on its biggest fun factor because you replace PE with BB in the rotation, thus missing out on the "mad collateral damage" while executing your "single-target DPS rotation."
Originally Posted by Melchior
Also, when looking at Frost Strike, with the issue of it eating KM procs (which impacts HB and IT crit rate), would it be optimal then only to dump FS after each rune set, so the only KM proc that could be wasted would be one already up going into the following set of runes? I wonder if Unholy presence would be less affected by this because of the increased haste and ability to dump all RP with small windows to spare to generate a new KM proc before getting into each subsequent rune rotation.
If you look at the rotation I ran the replacement on...
IT>PS>HB>dc>BS>BS
HB>dc>IT>PS>HB>dc
...you may notice that I have taken care to place FS so its KM proc munching has as small as an impact as I can get it. Two of the HBs are not affected at all by the replacement, and the other is only slightly affected.
[Edit: Ill-conceived portion deleted]
Essentially, right now, DKs have almost exactly the right amount of resources (Runes+RP) to use 12 GCDs per two Rune sets. The only way to get the additional (high quality) resources to push your damage density higher is Freezing Fog. However, because of HB's CD limitation, the resources gained from Freezing Fog is next to impossible to use if your non-proc rotation is already packing very high damage density.
Originally Posted by Melchior
Just to clarify on your previous statement regarding Tundra Stalker and Impurity, Impurity would represent roughly a 16% increase to IT and a 19% increase to HB? Is that correct?
Good eye. I pulled those numbers from my head from two different sets of calculations. The boost to both IT and HB from 5/5 Impurity ought to be closer to ~17% in "standard" T7.
Halens: Before posting snarky comments, do some research yourself. Melchior has explained the CF/EP "trick", but he shouldn't have had to -- it's been explained in the various threads on this forum.
As for gargoyle damage, look what I said:
It's also likely he summoned his gargoyle during a lucky Mirror/Greatness/Crusader double or triple proc.
You then posted two WWS'es in which Gothya's gargoyle was HITTING for over 300 more damage on average, and as a result did over 24k more total damage than Doc's. This is exactly what happens when you summon a garg during multiple procs -- it uses your temporarily inflated AP as the basis for its damage for the entire minute. Again, this is something you should have understood by reading the threads on this board.
I didn't mean the gargoyle was getting lucky crits, i meant the DK summoned the gargoyle during a lucky stack of procs OR the DK himself got a couple lucky crits. Upon comparing the WWSes you supply, it seems the former is most likely. By the way, from looking at Gothya's "buffs acquired" tab, we do know he had fallen crusader, mirror of truth, and greatness equipped for the fight.
Please do a little research before being snarky. A WWS like this isn't that hard to explain.
Really no one an Idea what this guy is doing here?
/bump
This guy is running a KM+RoR build like this 0/20/51 using a proper priority system. Builds like this are much more suited to running priority systems than HB variants, because your PS usage is essentially not bound by Rune CDs at all.
With IT Glyph and Sigil it should be better to pull a more IT based rotation. Without cooldown you are practically overflowing with HBs through Rime procs.
Something like: PS>IT>BS>BS>HB>Dump -> HB>HB>IT>IT>Dump and HB on every Rime proc
Didn't think about GCD issues or overflowing RP yet, but this change to HB appears to strong on first glance.
Edit: For 0/32/39 you probably want to replace the first HB in the second row with PS>IT, but this definitely gives GCD issues with Rime procs.
Hey everyone. All of these statistics concerning exact time and length of rotations with all the the numbers and mathematics is all very nice and I am sure very helpful to some people. However, for people like me, who are more simple and not as interested in number crunching, I think I have come up with the perfect rotation. It seems to work for me very well.
I haven't tested it out yet, but you could probably fight another plague strike in the second part of the rotation because there ends up being an extra unholy rune. This build seems to be working very effective with little downtime between the two parts of the rotation. As you can see, it is using death runes, and if rime does happen to proc, then I just throw in an obliterate here and there.
However, after the patch, howling blast is supposed to have no cooldown. So in this case the rotation would be
Some people might say to use 3 howling blast, but I prefer the icy touch and two howling blasts because it refreshes Frost Fever. Also, when rime procs after the next patch, you can just throw in an extra howling blast instead of obliterate, because howling blast will not have a cooldown.
I haven't full tested it, but when the patch comes out, I will try it, and if it seems that frost fever lasts long enough, I would use three howling blasts instead of an icy touch and two howling blast.
Feedback on this rotation would be great. I know I have posted other rotations before, but this one seems to be working best for me right now.
This might be a noob error on my part (since I don't know much about dw) but you have spells listed every second, which suggests a 1s GCD. Is dw customarily in unholy presence? I thought for 2h at least that blood was better, but I'm guessing it's for KM procs ... or is it just a code error?
Originally Posted by Hyperaktiv
Is this considered with blood or unholy presence?
[edit: typo]
Almost everyone who is using a DW build will be using Unholy Presence.
Unholy Presence: Increases attack speed by 15%, increases movement speed by 15%, and reduces the global cooldown on all Death Knight abilities by 0.5 sec.
12/19/08, 4:05 PM
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