Dual Wield Builds - Page 171

Asphyxialol · 03/16/09, 5:59 PM

At higher end gear levels I believe it has shown that the additional uptime of +15% str has proven to be more beneficial to personal dps over CG which was always superior to RI for personal DPS.

Fast/fast is currently the best setup for absolute min/maxers, but realistically if you have a fast 1h ilvl 200 vs a slow 2h ilvl 213 (like hatestrike vs angry dread) then you obviously take the 213. The difference is truly insignificant, just use which weapon is most beneficial to you stat wise, whether it be fast or slow, but that is only in the main hand.

Expertise is as necessary for 2h builds as hit is, because a vast majority of their damage relies on expertise rolls. DW is less important, hence why he recommended BB.

BB hits for less than BS, both in and out of a raid setting, however it gains the benefit of a spell GCD (by haste), fulfills the same role (creates death runes) and isn't subject to expertise checks, only hit. This allows more proper itemization.

kudzupo · 03/16/09, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vijil

Curious, has something changed? I thought it was shown that using 2x FC was less optimal than say FC/CG or FC/RI.

Also, while the dps difference between fast/fast and slow/fast is almost insignificant, wasn't it shown that fast/fast currently has a slight edge over slow/fast.

Also, I was under the impression that while expertise is helpful, and almost a must for a 2h build, due to the spell heavy nature of DW, it was far less important.

slow/fast is nice for maximizing BCB and necrosis damage.

FC/FC is good for burst, FC/RI if theres no one putting up RI (until 3.1 then FC/RI will likely be optimal). To be honest, no one has shown that either is better currently. I have found my best results with FC/FC so that is what I use.

Expertise is still needed. Though it certainly isn't a priority over say hit or strength, it is not a stat to be ignored. You should never overcap expertise, nor should you gem for it over strength. A big advantage of dual wielding is white damage, which expertise helps quite a bit. Currently (not in 3.1), blood strike hits for more than blood boil on a single target, so you still have a few strikes in the build that are helped by expertise. Again, it is not the best stat, but should not be ignored.

orion121 · 03/16/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by kudzupo

slow/fast is nice for maximizing BCB and necrosis damage.

FC/FC is good for burst, FC/RI if theres no one putting up RI (until 3.1 then FC/RI will likely be optimal). To be honest, no one has shown that either is better currently. I have found my best results with FC/FC so that is what I use.

Expertise is still needed. Though it certainly isn't a priority over say hit or strength, it is not a stat to be ignored. You should never overcap expertise, nor should you gem for it over strength. A big advantage of dual wielding is white damage, which expertise helps quite a bit. Currently (not in 3.1), blood strike hits for more than blood boil on a single target, so you still have a few strikes in the build that are helped by expertise. Again, it is not the best stat, but should not be ignored.

Fast/Fast better for Nec/BCB because of AP scaling
Damage / execute on BS may be higher, but damage / execute time scales better on BB (assuming Blood Presence)

Varlak · 03/16/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Vijil

Curious, has something changed? I thought it was shown that using 2x FC was less optimal than say FC/CG or FC/RI.

Also, while the dps difference between fast/fast and slow/fast is almost insignificant, wasn't it shown that fast/fast currently has a slight edge over slow/fast.

Also, I was under the impression that while expertise is helpful, and almost a must for a 2h build, due to the spell heavy nature of DW, it was far less important.

well pre 3.1 with the verious change to some proc. weapons speed is irrevelant. get the ebst one thats all.

But now if you would have the same stats and DPS on both, yeah a fast one would be bether.
In 3.1 it will become slow/ fast.

Experitise still king since a missed rune attack will screw your DPS rotation.

repsem · 03/17/09, 1:03 AM

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Why would you go back to the big DK crits? - all the way at the bottom

"To answer a few questions, Frost and Unholy will probably both lose some Icy Touch damage when all is said and done. Not all of those changes are in yet. It's cool for Unholy to dip into Frost for some more damage, but it's degenerate (in the sense that the design collapses) for Unholy to do that just so it becomes a crazy Icy Touch spamming juggernaut.

Blood should be about Heart Strike, Death Strike and healing.
Frost should be about Obliterate, Frost Strike and some (key word) ranged Frost damage.
Unholy should be about Scourge Strike, diseases and minions.
A little crossover for hybrid builds is fine. "

On the PTR, Sigil of the Frozen Conscience has already seen it's damage cut in half. If Unholy and Frost lose more icy touch damage, where do we see DW going?

Lollersk8er · 03/17/09, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by repsem

On the PTR, Sigil of the Frozen Conscience has already seen it's damage cut in half. If Unholy and Frost lose more icy touch damage, where do we see DW going?

Down the drain. DW is all about IT and minions. Every other spec works better with a 2h.

Kyruski · 03/17/09, 12:04 PM

With the impending changes to IT, it might be best to look at a build that focuses on white damage more now since our auto-attacks have always been DW's advantage over 2H. I'm trying to find a build that would execute this the best, but so far, all I've come up with is 27/8/36. I know this build is a variation on 32/13/26, though this build differs from 32/13/26 in that it focuses on maximizing DC DPS plus some free ones from Sudden Doom. There has also been the reverts of Necrosis and BCB since we last tried (that I know of) the 32/13/26 build. I'd want to try it in BP but I'm fearing that the rotation of (PS>IT>BS>DC)x2 might be too long and unfavorable/sub-par. I will test this once I get home since I am in class, but for some reason, I have a feeling that it won't perform up to my expectations/standards.

Varlak · 03/17/09, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by repsem

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Why would you go back to the big DK crits? - all the way at the bottom

"
Blood should be about Heart Strike, Death Strike and healing.
Frost should be about Obliterate, Frost Strike and some (key word) ranged Frost damage.
Unholy should be about Scourge Strike, diseases and minions.
A little crossover for hybrid builds is fine. "

SO in other words, DW can't be viable.

DW as a DK won't ever be viable if its only rely on white dmg, necrosis and BCB.

So for after all the DW testing made and posted on this thread we've came up with the 2 best Spec.

Deep frost/ unholy and deep unholy/ frost. And both build where doing bether DPS when you used a 2h and changed the rotation.

But I am not surprised about that. Dual weilding used to be overpowerd pre 3.8
After 3.08 the only time you could see DW realy do bether then 2h is when you where in blue gear. But the problem is due to the lack of good 2h at lower tier lvl's not to DW beeing opver powered.

In 3.08 the 32/39 and the 44/27 builds take their power from beeing able to use both, Howling Blast + Perma ghoul while the 2hander DK couldn't.

But now with the switch betwin HB and HG and the perma ghoul beeing only a 16th talent in unholy even 2h DK can use boths.

The problem with 3.1 isn't the nerf to DW. Its the buff to 2h spec.

Edit: If BLizzard wanted DW to be viable they would give us a strike or any other kind of rune ability that would benefit more to dual weilder then it is to 2hander.

Every single ability requiring a button clicking benefit more to a 2hander DK or have the same benefit to both.

Everytime I do click on a skill I feel like I should handle a 2hander. We have no Storm Strike like skill.

Varlak · 03/17/09, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

With the impending changes to IT, it might be best to look at a build that focuses on white damage more now since our auto-attacks have always been DW's advantage over 2H. I'm trying to find a build that would execute this the best, but so far, all I've come up with is 27/8/36. I know this build is a variation on 32/13/26, though this build differs from 32/13/26 in that it focuses on maximizing DC DPS plus some free ones from Sudden Doom. There has also been the reverts of Necrosis and BCB since we last tried (that I know of) the 32/13/26 build. I'd want to try it in BP but I'm fearing that the rotation of (PS>IT>BS>DC)x2 might be too long and unfavorable/sub-par. I will test this once I get home since I am in class, but for some reason, I have a feeling that it won't perform up to my expectations/standards.

The problem with that way of thinking is that you are not looking for the best DW build.

You just try to find a build that benefit more to DW then it is to 2h.

If the very best DW spec would do sinificant higher dps if you had used a 2hander. It does mean DW is not viable

If you find a gimp spec with a gimped rotation that have a bether DPS going DW then 2h. It mean nothing. Because a good 2h spec would simply beat it.

Kyruski · 03/17/09, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Varlak

The problem with that way of thinking is that you are not looking for the best DW build.

You just try to find a build that benefit more to DW then it is to 2h.

If the very best DW spec would do sinificant higher dps if you had used a 2hander. It does mean DW is not viable

If you find a gimp spec with a gimped rotation that have a bether DPS going DW then 2h. It mean nothing. Because a good 2h spec would simply beat it.

The problem is we don't know how much they're changing IT's damage right now so this is just speculation for now. Now that I am saying this out loud that it's just speculation, it does seem somewhat insignificant. We probably just need to wait until we see the changes that they are making. I just think blizzard needs to stop circle jerking DW and make up their mind on the direction of it. I think a lot of the original Theorycrafters that worked on DW have just gotten annoyed with blizzard and have stopped, which is a shame. This is just what I have seen.

Kyruski · 03/17/09, 3:41 PM

Ok, So I'm going to compile a list of things that have changed that really effect DW:

Reaping no longers creates Death runes from BB. Only through Pest and BS.
HB is a 51 point talent. Damage doubled but no IT bonus. AP Coefficient increase.
Outbreak no longer helps BB.
Black Ice effectiveness reduced by 33% per talent point (4/8/12/16/20 from 6/12/18/24/30).
Glacier Rot moved to Tier 5, Effectiveness increased by 100% (4/8/12/16/20 from 2/4/6/8/10).
FS received a damage increase.
UB and Garg switch positions and both get buffed.
Desecration is 100% with each PS. Effectiveness increases with each talent point.
IT Sigil bonus reduced.
Shadow of Death removed and MoG takes it's place. MoG reduces Ghoul CD by 1 min.
NotD is now a flat CD reduction.
Bone Shield CD doubled.
BB damage increase.
Also GC has said that IT damage will be reduced.

This is just for reference for what effects us. From a lot of what I see, this basically kills any 0/20/51 build since we focused on heavy hitting ITs and the changes to Glacier Rot (Position), Black Ice, the IT Sigil, and the impending IT damage nerf make it look a lot less attractive. They are also removing BB's ability to create death runes and a it's damage bonus from Outbreak while buffing it's damage all together. The damage buff all together is nice, but it loses a lot of it's practicality by no longer allowing it to create Death Runes. 0/51/19+1 builds will however still do somewhat well with the IT nerfs, but it still will take a hit. It's just hard to tell what blizzard is doing...

If I missed any changes or you need a reference for where I found one of the changes, let me know.

Varlak · 03/17/09, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

Ok, So I'm going to compile a list of things that have changed that really effect DW:

Reaping no longers creates Death runes from BB. Only through Pest and BS.
HB is a 51 point talent. Damage doubled but no IT bonus. AP Coefficient increase.
Outbreak no longer helps BB.
Black Ice effectiveness reduced by 33% per talent point (4/8/12/16/20 from 6/12/18/24/30).
Glacier Rot moved to Tier 5, Effectiveness increased by 100% (4/8/12/16/20 from 2/4/6/8/10).
FS received a damage increase.
UB and Garg switch positions and both get buffed.
Desecration is 100% with each PS. Effectiveness increases with each talent point.
IT Sigil bonus reduced.
Shadow of Death removed and MoG takes it's place. MoG reduces Ghoul CD by 1 min.
NotD is now a flat CD reduction.
Bone Shield CD doubled.
BB damage increase.
Also GC has said that IT damage will be reduced.

This is just for reference for what effects us. From a lot of what I see, this basically kills any 0/20/51 build since we focused on heavy hitting ITs and the changes to Glacier Rot (Position), Black Ice, the IT Sigil, and the impending IT damage nerf make it look a lot less attractive. They are also removing BB's ability to create death runes and a it's damage bonus from Outbreak while buffing it's damage all together. The damage buff all together is nice, but it loses a lot of it's practicality by no longer allowing it to create Death Runes. 0/51/19+1 builds will however still do somewhat well with the IT nerfs, but it still will take a hit. It's just hard to tell what blizzard is doing...

If I missed any changes or you need a reference for where I found one of the changes, let me know.

its easy to see what blizzard is doing. They simply never made any effort in making DW viable.

They created the DK made them about 2hander DPS and they allowed them to dual weild.

Face it the only ability/ talent that has been made for the purpose of DW DK is.... Nerves of Cold.

I am pretty sure blizard was clueless that Necrosis, BCB and Killing machine would benefite more to DW then 2handers.

They never ever worked on dual weilding, they simply gave us the ability to go the 1handers route and they just crossed their fingers hoping this would work and be balanced.

Entroffic · 03/17/09, 5:32 PM

Long time reader first time poster.

According to what Blizzard wants, and from what I gathered from reading blue posts and such, is that Blizzard wants DW to be equal to, not better than 2handers. So when things are finalized for this next patch and we get the final build with all of the finalized changes to talents and skills, the best thing to do in my opinion would be to find a DW spec that is most similar (in terms of dps) to the top 2hand spec.

After doing some simple testing with some specs, both with simple and way-out-there specs, none of these specs do as much damage as I'm doing in 3.09 on live (32/39 variant). However, it seems that Blizzard's method to their madness is to take us a huge step backward, then build us up as the release date nears. I don't see too much reason to be worried. Classes and specs rise and fall... welcome to the World of Warcraft.

That being said most specs in 3.1 need Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blade. That much we can be sure of. Besides Nerves of Cold Steel these two talents benefit DW just as much as they do a 2hander.

The only spec I'm getting decent numbers on is the 0/51/19+1. This was using Angry Dread(FC), and Avool's Sword of Jin(RI). I switched to a first come first serve/priority system because any rotations I came up with at the time felt slow and inefficient. The only thing that was scripted was doubling up on Blood Strike for two Icy Touches. I pulled around 2400 dps on dummies.

The problem I'm having with this spec is that Frost Strike is puzzling. I was thinking about perhaps trying a 0/51/19+1 with a point put elsewhere instead of Frost Strike, and using Death Coil as a primary dump as it would seemingly be better suited for a DW build in that it gives us a Howling Blast and a beefed up Death Coil instead of Howling Blast and a strike ability that is better suited for 2handers.

Rotation could be: PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>Dump PS>IT>IT>IT>HB>Dump. Naturally the problem here is the cooldown on HB. This is why I'm committed to testing a priority system and I am having trouble with rotations because they seem excessively long and inefficient.

I may post screenshots of this test.

Orlgin · 03/17/09, 5:41 PM

I believe that 0/20/51 is perfectly viable. Here's the changes to the spec:

1) Plague Strike gets buffed to 50%. A buff since we use it anyway. While it will deal more damage with a 2 hander, it's a small portion of total DPS.

2) Black Ice gets nerfed to 20%. We lose Glacial Rot's 10% bonus . Sigil gets nerfed in half. This is a straight nerf to Icy Touch which is a big portion of our DPS.

3) Blood Strike gets buffed. While it requires more haste than before, itemization will be better as well. So replacing Blood Boil with Blood Strike is fine. A buff to us for single target. A definite advantage of having three diseases.

4) Blood Caked Blade gets buffed. After everything was said and done, it now deals more damage for the duel-wielding Death Knight. We have three diseases to give us the maximum possible benefit.

5) Haste gets a 30% boost. The most haste driven spec gets a huge boost with this change. It really highlights the benefit of duel-wielding when you are stacking haste. Not to mention what it does to the pets.

6) Gargoyle gets a buff. If you want the buffed gargoyle, you need 51 points in Unholy. This unique advantage to this DW build is the powerful gargoyle that uses less runic power to deal more damage.

7) Unholy Blight is still unique to this build as Howling Blast specs can't take it.

8) Glyph of Dark Death is a much better replacement to the Glyph of Plague Strike or Blood Strike which were the previous options.

9) Razorice buffed to give 10% frost damage instead of 5%.

And I could go on but the point is: Everything but Icy Touch got buffed. You will do more damage overall than you did before with the exact same stats. The percentages that you see for each thing will change. Necrosis and Blood Caked Blade damage will be over 30% higher. Plague Strike will be 10-15% higher. Blood Strike will be much higher than the old Blood Boil. You get the idea.

When you are examining specs, you need to analyze the whole package instead just the main strike. Icy Touch still hits plenty hard:

15% Blood Presence, 20% Black Ice, 30% Improved Icy Touch, 25% Impurity, 13% Ebon Plaguebringer, 10% Razorice, 5% Desecration, and 2% Bone Shield.

Not to mention that it will have a high crit rate with Killing Machine which gets buffed with all the extra haste.

0/20/51 is a worthy spec for duel-wielding. It all comes down to testing to see which builds are the top when the changes are finalized.

Edit: Forgot Rage of Rivendare which adds another 10% to Icy Touch

Kyruski · 03/17/09, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

I believe that 0/20/51 is perfectly viable. Here's the changes to the spec:
*snip*
And I could go on but the point is: Everything but Icy Touch got buffed. You will do more damage overall than you did before with the exact same stats. The percentages that you see for each thing will change. Necrosis and Blood Caked Blade damage will be over 30% higher. Plague Strike will be 10-15% higher. Blood Strike will be much higher than the old Blood Boil. You get the idea.

When you are examining specs, you need to analyze the whole package instead just the main strike. Icy Touch still hits plenty hard:

15% Blood Presence, 20% Black Ice, 30% Improved Icy Touch, 25% Impurity, 13% Ebon Plaguebringer, 10% Razorice, 5% Desecration, and 2% Bone Shield.

Not to mention that it will have a high crit rate with Killing Machine which gets buffed with all the extra haste.

0/20/51 is a worthy spec for duel-wielding. It all comes down to testing to see which builds are the top when the changes are finalized.

The thing is GC said that they are reducing the damage of IT, so we need to first know how much of a nerf that is, because with no Glacier Rot, 10% less from Black Ice, the IT sigil, and the IT damage reduction, that could be enough to offset the build since we did rely on IT damage a lot. We just need to wait.

Also UB does double the DPS now.