Im stacking insane amounts of hit to get to the hit cap currently not including the 3% I have 716, but I'm severly gimping my crit and ap to get this. Do I need close to the 28% hit cap or not? If not what is an amount that will suffice?
The base chance to miss a raid boss while dual wielding, auto-attack, both hands
Hit cap @ 80:
28% or 918.12 hit rating
32.79 = 1% Hit(1%)
28% (base miss chance) - 3% (Nerves of Cold Steel) = 25% needed from gear, or 25 x 32.79 = 819.75 rating.
Spell hit cap @ 80
17% or 445.94 spell hit rating
26.23 = Spell Hit(1%)
Spell Hit, only effect Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil. Use Spell Hit cap to check if they will miss or not. If you pick up Virulence from Unholy, the spell hit will be attained by simply being Special Attack capped
17% (base miss chance) - 3% (Virulence) = 14% needed from gear, or 14 x 26.23 = 367.22 rating.
Special attacks (Displayed on the GUI and Combat log in yellow) cap at +9% to hit. This includes all the spells with Strike in there name (Frost, Death, Blood, etc)
9% (base miss chance) 9 x 32.79 = 295.11
Auto attack only counts for about 30% of my damage, while Icy Touch, Howling Blast, and Frost do the rest of my damage. I don’t plan on stacking much more than 14% hit rating or 367.22. Sure the more hit you stack helps your auto swing, but I wouldn’t sacrifice Str, AP or Crit to reach a higher number.
Originally Posted by Laqwanda
Secondly, I see this question be posted and answered differently almost everytime. What is better for dual weild, blood or unholy presence I would like to get a diffinative answer because every other person is saying blood or unholy?
I am using Unholy Presence. I am satisfied it adds more damage and provides more flexibility in my rotation than Blood Presence does.
Originally Posted by Laqwanda
In addition, based on the previous question is F/F better for dps or is S/F better? I have the gear to support both would just like to have a clear answer.
There are a few posts a couple of pages back that talk about this. You might want to look there.
The base chance to miss a raid boss while dual wielding, auto-attack, both hands
Hit cap @ 80:
28% or 918.12 hit rating
32.79 = 1% Hit(1%)
28% (base miss chance) - 3% (Nerves of Cold Steel) = 25% needed from gear, or 25 x 32.79 = 819.75 rating.
Special attacks (Displayed on the GUI and Combat log in yellow) cap at +9% to hit. This includes all the spells with Strike in there name (Frost, Death, Blood, etc)
9% (base miss chance) 9 x 32.79 = 295.11
The Rogues and other Classes have recently discovered, that the DW cap has been lowered to 27% and the special cap was lowered to 8%. I think testing is not finished but almost everything points to this conclusion.
But since we need spell cap anyway this won't help us that much
If at all possible, I would try to get 17% hit rating if I were you, that way, the only attacks that would miss are autoattacks. However, with viruence, 14% hit rating is just what you need. However, if you have a piece of gear with alot of hit rating, but then another piece of gear with no hit rating but alot of strength and crit, then I would have to say if you are at least at around at least 11% not including virulence, go for the gear with the strength and crit. This way, you are still close to the hit cap for spells, but the extra AP and crit would most likely make up for it.
First let me say the damage is the same, but the number of auto swings when using Unholy Presence is more because of the lower GCD on ALL our abilities and the increase in haste helps lower your auto swing speed allowing you to swing faster.
What? GCD doesn't affect autoattack swing speed at all. Only the haste part of Unholy presence does.
Using the same rotation, the numbers I come up with when using Unholy Presence shows a increase in dps because I am using more Auto Swings possibly causing more KM and BCB procs
More autoattacks DEFINITELY causes more BCB and Necrosis procs. Exactly 15% more. And they hit 15% weaker than in Blood presence. They also cause more procs of Fallen Crusader, Cinderglacier, KM, etc. But this doesn't directly effect the listed contribution to your DPS from autoattack and related talents.
I think we agree on this but are arguing over semantics.
Finally, I think what will separate the good DW DK from the great is knowing when to be in blood and when to be in frost. I think there is no "best" presence for all situations, and the better presence may even change over the course of the fight, requiring a quick blood tap -> presence change. For instance, I think blood would be better when your gargoyle is up but frost better when he's not.
What? GCD doesn't affect autoattack swing speed at all. Only the haste part of Unholy presence does.
More autoattacks DEFINITELY causes more BCB and Necrosis procs. Exactly 15% more. And they hit 15% weaker than in Blood presence. They also cause more procs of Fallen Crusader, Cinderglacier, KM, etc. But this doesn't directly effect the listed contribution to your DPS from autoattack and related talents.
I think we agree on this but are arguing over semantics.
You are right GCD doesn’t affect auto attack, and I never said it did. If you go back and look at the two rotations I posted, what I said was because of the -0.5sec GCD I get from Unholy Presence, all of our special abilities like IT, HB, FS, etc have a 1 second GCD instead of a 1.5 GCD. I cast those special attacks faster gaining more auto attacks at the end of each 10 second rotation resulting in more chances for KM, BCB, etc to proc, equaling an over all DPS gain.
Originally Posted by Broseph
Finally, I think what will separate the good DW DK from the great is knowing when to be in blood and when to be in frost. I think there is no "best" presence for all situations, and the better presence may even change over the course of the fight, requiring a quick blood tap -> presence change. For instance, I think blood would be better when your gargoyle is up but frost better when he's not.
I can’t see why if we are DW’ing, we would ever want to be in Blood Presence. I could very well be missing something, but If we all agree that +15% haste from UP equals +15% damage from BP nullify each other, then wouldn’t the -0.5sec GCD reduction in our abilities gives us more chance to auto swing, etc, etc, etc and the movement speed buff out weights the +2% health gain after a kill?
You are right GCD doesn’t affect auto attack, and I never said it did. If you go back and look at the two rotations I posted, what I said was because of the -0.5sec GCD I get from Unholy Presence, all of our special abilities like IT, HB, FS, etc have a 1 second GCD instead of a 1.5 GCD. I cast those special attacks faster gaining more auto attacks at the end of each 10 second rotation resulting in more chances for KM, BCB, etc to proc, equaling an over all DPS gain.
I can’t see why if we are DW’ing, we would ever want to be in Blood Presence. I could very well be missing something, but If we all agree that +15% haste from UP equals +15% damage from BP nullify each other, then wouldn’t the -0.5sec GCD reduction in our abilities gives us more chance to auto swing, etc, etc, etc and the movement speed buff out weights the +2% health gain after a kill?
The GCD and ability usage in general don't have anything to do with your amount of autohits, what are you talking about?
With the upcoming changes, this is what I recommend:
Build: 0/44/27
Presence: Blood
Weapons: S/F since you use Frost Strike
FS rotation assumes you use Icy Touch glyph, chill to the grave:2, epidemic:2, and Frost Strike Glyph. Begin the fight using Horn of Winter for 10 runic power.
Using a macro for freezing fog will ensure you don't run out of runic power. The rotation has 10 extra runic power for each 20 second set allowing you to build runic power for the Gargoyle. For the Gargoyle, you need to break the Howling Blast into an Icy Touch and Plague Strike. This will generate enough runic power to keep the gargoyle up for it's full duration. When the gargoyle dies, use a Horn of Winter so your runic cooldowns will be ready for the normal rotation.
The Horn of Winter needs to be refreshed about that time so it isn't a waste of a GCD. You then fire that rotation for the duration of the fight.
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So here's the question, with the build I'm running I have 1 point to spare in Impurity or Merciless Combat, the difference between the two seems marginal to a point where I don't see it's difference as being important but it led me to question how much of a difference things like 1 point can be. I use a 13/31/27 build maxing Impurity, and as one can see I picked up the extra crit from Dark Conviction to augment my realitively low Crit chance (17% with no points in Dark Conviction).
Also how does that 1% extra crit (per point of Dark Conviction) fair against Reaping (per point)?
This build has given me the easiest and most consistant dmg that I've gotten out of any build I've run with DW. On some side notes I am working towards better gear but I have alot of work left to do, finish running Heroics then Naxx, which should put me into a gear lvl that I need to be to get the most out of DW.
- Del
Last edited by Delofasht : 12/22/08 at 2:41 PM.
Reason: for clarity
Looking at the Gothya WWS , it looks like he's doing some sort of rotation with 3 IT, 2 PS, and 1 BS (which fuels his 3rd IT). He has almost exactly 3to1 ITtoBS. He must have a monstrous AP for IT to hit for 7626. He's obviously in Blood Presence. He's probably doing something like, IT-PS-IT-PS-(BS-IT)-dump (rotate). Was using FC on MH and Razorice on OH. Seems like a pretty simple rotation.
I can't find him on Armory, but I would have to guess he was prolly 0/23/48 or something (to get both Wandering Plague and Killing Machine). Don't know if he Glyphed IT or not. From the looks of it, he was getting < 1 DC per rotation (most likely because of gargoyle) so i'm doubtful he glyphed IT. He probably could of rocked even more dps if he Glyphed IT and rock only 1 PS per rotation and got the 2nd DC each pass. He'd lose 30k dmg from his IT, 10k of PS, but gain 54k of DC.
Hi guys, I've learned a lot from this thread and I have done some testing so I wanted to share with you the results. I used to be Unholy and use a 2H weapon. Before testing if DW was better I had to establish a base to see what my current dps was, then use that for comparison. For more accurate testing, I removed trinkets that could trigger different effects.
Test
I tested on 3 lvl 80 Training Dummies. This was a 6 minute test. For weapon, I used [Runeblade of Demonstrable Power]. Rotation Used
/castsequence reset=10/target Plague Strike, Icy Touch, Pestilence, Blood Strike, Scourge Strike, Unholy Blight, Scourge Strike, Scourge Strike, Death Coil Note: I would weave in Death Coil when I had to dump some excess runic power and runes were on cooldown.
Notes
My intention was to be able to do well with more AoE abilities since many pulls in Naxx (or any instance for that case) are multimob pulls. Unholy is great for this with Wandering Plague, an additional disease and Unholy Blight.
Test
I tested on 3 lvl 80 Training Dummies. This was a 6 minute test. For weapons I used 2 Wyrmrest Accord Honored sword Fang of Truth. (2 fast speed weapons? WTF? I know, oddly enough I had done another test exactly the same but used Ymiron's sword in MH and got 15 dps less. Weird.)
Rotation Used
/castsequence reset=10/target Plague Strike, Icy Touch, Pestilence, Howling Blast, Blood Boil, Plague Strike, Icy Touch, Blood Strike, Howling Blast, Blood Strike Note: I would weave in Death Coils BETWEEN Icy Touch and Howling Blasts. Why? You want to maximize the chance Killing Machine(+50% to crit for Icy Touch, Howling Blast) comes up before your hardest hitting ability, Howling Blast. By weaving in your Death Coils before Howling Blast you're increasing the chance for Killing Machine to trigger.
Notes
The intention is still the same, focus more on AoE type abilities for all the multi-mob pulls in instances. This build focuses more on burst AoE damage as opposed to DoT AoE damage. Howling Blast kind of replaces Unholy Blight with this build.
Why Blood Boil instead of Blood Strike?
This was a tough call. Blood Boil can do more damage than Blood Strike depending on the number of mobs around you with a disease. If there are only two, maybe three mobs, Blood Strike would make sense. More than 4 mobs, Blood Boil will probably do the same if not more damage. Use your judgement on this one.
But Sven, what if I'm fighting a single mob like a boss and there are no multiple mobs?
Well, that calls for a different rotation then. Pestilence (used to spread diseases) would be a waste of a blood rune, same with Blood Boil. So switch out Pestilence and Blood Boil with Blood Strikes.
The /castrandom Rune Strike is more for when I'm soloing. Again, weave in Death Coils on rune cooldowns, healing pet, etc.
Sven, what the hell? Why did you change the order of abilities for the single mob rotation?
The goal of the multi-mob rotation is to spread diseases and get burst damage right up front before the mobs die. Howling Blast occurs right after you spread the diseases. I have to use Pestilence first mainly because of the frost talent "Glacier Rot" which says mobs with diseases take 10% more damage from Icy Touch and Howling Blast. This is also why Plague Strike starts the cycle and not Icy Touch. So once all mobs around me have a disease, they'll all take 10% more damage from the ensuing Howling Blast.
With the single mob rotation Howling Blast is at the end. Why? It's because of maximizing each abilities' damage again. With Glacier Rot you want to hit with Plague Strike first so when you hit with Icy Touch 2nd, Icy Touch is doing 10% more damage. Then after 3 diseases are on mob (Crypt Fever being the 3rd disease), you hit with your Blood Strikes which do more damage per disease ( Rank 6 - Instantly strike the enemy, causing 50% weapon damage plus 191, and an additional 95.5 bonus damage per disease). Howling Blast is last because I want to maximize the time between Icy Touch and Howling Blast for Killing Machine to trigger which will in turn increase my crit chance on the Howling Blast.
Speed it up!
Mobs in instances go down pretty fast as players get better gear. I try to spread my diseases to others before the initial mob dies. In order to do this I use Unholy Presence (1 sec global cooldown on all abilities). This way all mobs are ticking with 3 diseases after 3 seconds then blasted with a Howling Blast in 4 seconds. If there are A LOT of little mobs then I just go with this rotation:
Death and Decay (blood, frost, unholy)
Plague Strike (unholy)
Icy Touch (frost)
Pestilence (blood)
(At this point there is a cooldown so I get off some Death Coils)
Howling Blast (frost, unholy)
So I'm sacrificing 15% damage bonus to hit more targets. I switch to Blood Presence on single mobs/longer fights though.
I had written this post about a week ago and put it on my own guild's forums. Since then I pretty much have always stayed in Unholy Presence except for boss fights. I had also picked up a higher dps, but slower weapon for the MH instead of two fast weapons. I will always keep a fast weapon in the OH though.
@ Ekonomie
The same bug/trick that everyone in the Unholy DPS thread has talked about? The EP/CF stacking bug? That doesn't change that he has a unique rotation/spec that put up big numbers.
He's in the EU. Was specced 20 51 0 with a 2h when I looked. It looked like he was only averaging 1.5 PS per rotation. Here's a filtered log of what he was doing.
Also how does that 1% extra crit (per point of Dark Conviction) fair against Reaping (per point)?
I've found that to function efficiently with DW you would need to have either Blood of the north or Reaping in order to fit in the extra HBs. Any build without this would be a DPS loss I believe (theorycraft only at the moment). The point of getting impurity is to significantly buff HB (and DC for 10/31/30) so you are essentially debuffing Impurity by skipping either reaping or BotN.
According to my 'maths' 10/31/30 with reaping and 0/44/27 with BotN and GoG (my preference) are neck and neck in the DW Dps race with 0/44/27 leading slightly.
Disclaimer: This is mostly from my dps spreadsheet that is still in beta and I'm pretty sure there are some glitches here and there (killing machine most probably).
He's in the EU. Was specced 20 51 0 with a 2h when I looked. It looked like he was only averaging 1.5 PS per rotation. Here's a filtered log of what he was doing.
This couldn't have been the case. You even contradict yourself. 20/51/0 with Plague Strike? He was also using Ebon Gargoyle and Necrosis in that WWS...
My mistake with the Plague Strike...I was thinking of Scourge Stike.
Last edited by Dacrusha : 12/22/08 at 5:32 PM.
Reason: typo
This couldn't have been the case. You even contradict yourself. 20/51/0 with Plague Strike? He was also using Ebon Gargoyle and Necrosis in that WWS...
Last I heard, every DK had Plague Strike. I'll clarify for you, though: he had respecced between the time of that parse and the time I looked at his armory. I was responding directly to the good gentleman from the floor who had mentioned having trouble finding him on armory. My response answers why he had trouble and also indicates that it probably isn't worth the effort of looking him up, if your only interest is in seeing what he was specced for the parse. Incidentally, his probable spec was discussed earlier and a wowhead link provided.
This thread is like a lich except his phylactery is the mind-numbing idiocy of every imbecile that walks the earth. -Slake
I've found that to function efficiently with DW you would need to have either Blood of the north or Reaping in order to fit in the extra HBs. Any build without this would be a DPS loss I believe (theorycraft only at the moment). The point of getting impurity is to significantly buff HB (and DC for 10/31/30) so you are essentially debuffing Impurity by skipping either reaping or BotN.
According to my 'maths' 10/31/30 with reaping and 0/44/27 with BotN and GoG (my preference) are neck and neck in the DW Dps race with 0/44/27 leading slightly.
Disclaimer: This is mostly from my dps spreadsheet that is still in beta and I'm pretty sure there are some glitches here and there (killing machine most probably).
Reaping allows for more versatility in rotation and more uses of Icy Touch, so the damage gained from 2xIcy Touch per 20s rotation balance against everything critting 3% more often, okay seems solid in theory.
Curious if it remains true after removing HB's CD, which actually 10/31/30 should be even better for then, seeing as the extra 2 ITs per 20s rotation would provide more chances to proc Rime.
I've been looking into any available information about gothya's build and trying to figure out how it works.
From what I've been able to gather its simply an IT spam build, where you are able to self buff your IT's to insane levels.
Its 20/51, unholy/frost. Take frost down to killing machine and then take unholy to RoR.
I gave it a try myself and was unable replicate its damage potential. It seems that it's a build where it doesn't scale very well with low AP or low crit. Meaning it produces absolutely abysmal numbers if you are lacking in those two departments.
He was able to put out so much dps because his IT's were critting for 7K 75% of the time.
Even his non-crit IT damage was 3K average I have no idea how much AP you need to do that but I am thinking a lot. Therefore you need to be well geared before this build works.
Inzo has made a comment that he has found this build to be superior to 32/39
That's already pointed out and it has also already been mentioned that getting the benefit from both EP and CF has nothing to do with the bulk of that guy's damage. At ~105k disease damage, getting the double benefit is worth a little over 24k damage, or 128dps. Amusingly enough, that would put him at exactly 6000dps for the fight. Double +30% disease bonuses isn't the strength of that build. Additionally, a 0 32 39 build can achieve the same effect with CF+EP. Focus on the real issue, which is that with ~6k average ap, Razorice and all the talents that buff IT, it will average 3k damage non-crit.
This thread is like a lich except his phylactery is the mind-numbing idiocy of every imbecile that walks the earth. -Slake
If you look at that WWS that gets thrown around so much his primary sources of damage is
IT - 26%
autoattack - 20%
gargoyle - 16%
so from those 3 sources it makes up 60% of his DPS.
If you look at the wandering plague + frost fever and blood plague damage, it makes up for comparatively much lower % of damage.
I'm not saying he wasn't benefiting from crypt fever + ebon plague because he was, his FF ticks for 1500.
But the real issue put out here is that this guy is getting 7K IT crits which is as much as some top WWS records of Howling Blast crits for.
Another point of comparison, lets say all this guy does is autoattack and spam IT, ignoring the fact that he couldn't IT as much because of death runes from reaping. He would still be doing 3K dps from just autoattack and IT spam!
For the record i didn't say that all his dps is made by this, juste most of it
This is my point: The quoted portion is very, very wrong. The double CF+EP effect is a bonus to Frost Fever (~54k), Blood Plague (~51k) and probably Wandering Plague (~35k), which I missed earlier. That's it. It doesn't amp his Icy Touches, it doesn't do anything to any of his other attacks. It's just a way to get a little bit stronger disease ticks.
140000 / 1.3 = ~38000. Getting both CF and EP was worth ~170dps. So, again, without that "trick" or "bug" or whatever, he'd have been doing 5900dps. CF+EP is a 4% gain. It's not nothing, but that's all it added. It isn't the issue, though it probably should be adjusted.
This thread is like a lich except his phylactery is the mind-numbing idiocy of every imbecile that walks the earth. -Slake
I've been looking into any available information about gothya's build and trying to figure out how it works.
From what I've been able to gather its simply an IT spam build, where you are able to self buff your IT's to insane levels.
Its 20/51, unholy/frost. Take frost down to killing machine and then take unholy to RoR.
That's a PVP spec. Two days before that he was unholy pvp specced. When that wws was first linked he was specced unholy/frost. (I can't remember the exact point distribution, but it was a heavy unholy build.)
12/22/08, 12:27 PM
and i guess only one dk is getting this extra buff.
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