Great posts one and all,
Kindda new here but i was wondering if anyone has run the numbers of bladed armor with Toughness, and if Unbreakable armor affect's toughness and therefor bladed armor, would make the build a little more frost relient i know bit would open to it to tundra stalker
Bladed Armor runs a check every 30 seconds to see your armor, so you'd have to time your Unbreakable Armor to go right before it ticks, that's a lot of micromanaging with very little reward so I don't think it's really worth much consideration. I could be mistaken though. Also I'm having a hard time figuring out what the end of your sentence means so I'm not sure how to respond.
Awesome information here guys. So far, I've tried a blood build and more recently been on unholy. My DK is 74 and I've done some both tanking and DPS. I'm interested in trying a dual wield setup and I'm wondering a few things:
1) Can DW ever really get on par dps-wise with a 2h build? I understand there are issues trying to tank DW, I'm more interested in dps right now.
2) I've been stacking str, AP, stam. Is this right for any dps build and is a DW build any different? Does agi factor in much?
Awesome information here guys. So far, I've tried a blood build and more recently been on unholy. My DK is 74 and I've done some both tanking and DPS. I'm interested in trying a dual wield setup and I'm wondering a few things:
1) Can DW ever really get on par dps-wise with a 2h build? I understand there are issues trying to tank DW, I'm more interested in dps right now.
2) I've been stacking str, AP, stam. Is this right for any dps build and is a DW build any different? Does agi factor in much?
Thanks!!
With the build i posted earlier i've been able to out dps same level Unholy 2h DKs. Recount has shown me being in top 2 spots every run i've been in. Normally getting beat out by someone 2+ levels than me.
Thank you. If you don't mind me asking, what rotation do you use?
Also, I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that DW's offhand wep follows roughly the same guidelines as a rogue (higher miss chance, lower dmg, etc) is that really true?
Awesome information here guys. So far, I've tried a blood build and more recently been on unholy. My DK is 74 and I've done some both tanking and DPS. I'm interested in trying a dual wield setup and I'm wondering a few things:
1) Can DW ever really get on par dps-wise with a 2h build? I understand there are issues trying to tank DW, I'm more interested in dps right now.
2) I've been stacking str, AP, stam. Is this right for any dps build and is a DW build any different? Does agi factor in much?
Thanks!!
1) Yes it can, for the same reason warriors and shamans see DWing as a viable option when they DPS rather then always reaching for the biggest, slow two-handed weapon they can get their hands on: White damage scaling.
Dual Wielding is all about getting your white hits to make up for the lack of numbers you see from all your special attacks while wielding a fast MH weapon that doesn't hit as hard.
2) DKs get dodge rating from agility. That's about it. You're doing it right.
First, as to the original thread, MM hunters provide the best AP buff as it can be glyphed to 12%.
Apologies for the long post but DW has not seemed to be going in this direction in the past so I feel the need to explain myself in detail. Some folks above do seem to be leaning in this direction now, and if there are 80's out there that can try this it will be nice to see how it comes out in a raid.
First, i see a lot of rotations that have a lot of specials in them. While there is the built in buffer on Rune recharges, there is still the limit on GCD's. In a 20sec rotation you can at most get off 13 specials without clipping your next 20sec rotation. If you have a lot more specials in 20sec than this, Unholy Presence might actually come out ahead. I only see this being the case with DW builds.
The tri-spec build and rotation seems to be violating some basic rules. That is, it doesn't maximise use of your hardest hitting abilities and convert Blood to Death runes to do more of the above. That means speccing into either Reaping or Blood of the North and getting off extra HBs and ITs every other 10secs. This will also produce a lot of rune power to use on more specials. With Rime procs, the power improving talents, and the IT glyph you can easily hit 200+ rune power and 17-18 specials in a 20sec period. This may very well be enough to make up for the 15% hit to special dmg from being in Unholy Presence. In fact, your rune strikes will need to be broken up with runic power abilities or you will cap your runic power.
The FS's section at the end will also include another IT if Rime procced.I tried to stack casts of IT and FS right behind HB and leave gaps of no IT and FS before HB giving time for a Killing Machine proc to occur as it is most effective on HB and less so on IT and FS. Another approach might be to evenly space HB, IT and FS to minimize the chance of missing a Killing Machine proc if you get two in close succession. I'm not sure which is a better stategy.
Use Gargoyle when appropriate. During gargoyle you will mostly only be using rune abilities, so no need for all the extra cooldowns, so it will probably be better to switch to Blood Presence during Gargoyle and back to Unholy after it is over. Uses a couple runes but the 15% damage over a minute (or 36+ rune abilities) will probably offset the loss of
two specials.
The other spec, the Unholy spec, uses the same basic rotation strategy except replacing the FS with DC. The other differences between them are very hard hitting HB from Guile of Gorefiend and Killing Machine synergy, or the overall bonuses of having Desecration and Bone Shield. There are other possibilities too, you could drop Gargoyle from the frost build if its not worth it and pick up more points in Blood like Butchery and Bladed Armor, though Gargoyle seems pretty powerful.
The main choice between the specs depends on how one-handed FS compares to DC. I think DC comes out on top but really big HBs are cool.
I can see what you're trying to do with these specs but...
Questions:
In the first one, why would you go that deep into frost, skip Tundra Stalker and Hungering Cold to go far enough into Unholy to pick up Summon Gargoyle, and then NOT take 3/3 Runic Power Mastery? SG is a RP hog. You'd need every RP you could get your hands on to keep it up and running, especially if you want so much as a prayer of not locking yourself out of things like Frost Strike, Icebound Fortitude, and Mind Freeze if you find you need them.
My friend's DK is frost and he dual wields. From what he says FS is still one of his top DPS abilities behind his melee and Howling Blast.
Also, FS way out performs DC in a frost build when you take 5/5 Killing Machine and 3/3 Guild of Gorefiend into account. Even when dual wielding.
DK DWing is like old rogue DWing. You just have to avoid the quick MH weapons. For your main hand you should be looking at a 2.6 speed weapon minimum. Even on a proc build.
IMO, for DWing I would go with something like this (but then again, I love the DK 51 point talents so not taking Hungering Cold is not an option for me):
It pumps the hell out of your white hits with 5/5 Necrosis and 3/3 Blood Caked Blades and gives group utility with Frost Aura, Improved Icy Talons, and Hungering Cold. If I were going to change anything it would be to take 2 points out of anticipation and plug them into Vicious Strikes on the unholy side, but I'd only do that if I were to slot a Glyph of Death Strike for 26% extra damage and healing with my DSes when RP is full. They won't replace Obliterate by any means, but any healing I can do myself is healing the tank can have.
With a deep frost build for DW, that includes IIT, which ultimately gives us a base 25% speed reduction, I would guess that 2.6s in each hand would be the way to go, especially to offset the damage reduction penalty for the OH?
This is just something that would seem logical to me, please let me know if I am incorrect in my thinking
Since the damage penalty to the offhand is a percentage, actual damage per hit is irrelevant to the offhand. If you're speccing for blood-caked blade (which I'm going to assume you are) then a fast offhand will give you more BCB strikes and more chances to proc killing machine.
I'm personally aiming for 2.6+ mainhand, 1.6 or lower offhand. I would be happy to revise this to 2x1.6speed if it turns out that the extra killing machine procs make up for the loss of damage per hit.
But doesn't Killing machine eventally produce dminishing returns? I mean you start to replace normal crits with garnteed crits more often than not, especially with IT which will start being the only thing you obtain procs for.
I personally am going with this spec for DW dps. While its a bit northodox the only thing I see being a major question is Desecration. but because i see this as a IT spammy build, PS will probobly get enough use to give it SOME uptime, and thats a dps increase that there isnt too many replacements for.
I know the first gripe would be "wtf no bladed armor" but to me the talent is highly overrated since it scales incredibly poorly. Armor doesnt increase very much, so that solid boost doesnt get mch better, and the 2% from bone armor, assuming you keep it up all the time, actually gives nearly the same dps at higher atp than Bladed. add in even just a 1% average from desecration and it makes up for it - plus the gain of a third personal disease increases BCB a fairly sinificant amount, not to mention blood strike as well gains a bonus not reliant on your weapon. And if there isnt an unholy DK around (and i made this spec mostly for 5 mans and heroics cause I dont plan to raid much so this is very likely) you gain a buff to disease damage completely irreplacable by anything but a DK.
I fiddled with some numbers and found not much could be done to make this much better for what I was going for. Going deeper into frost really gives a pretty insignificant boost to dps with what you give up, and going into blood is the same deal. The only thing I question is if I would need subversion at all for threat- but 1 or 2 points of crypt fever could be sacrificed for that without too major a loss.
Tell me what you think, although its set in stone for me I would like to know how more experienced people would consider it.
But doesn't Killing machine eventally produce dminishing returns? I mean you start to replace normal crits with garnteed crits more often than not, especially with IT which will start being the only thing you obtain procs for.
I personally am going with this spec for DW dps. While its a bit northodox the only thing I see being a major question is Desecration. but because i see this as a IT spammy build, PS will probobly get enough use to give it SOME uptime, and thats a dps increase that there isnt too many replacements for.
I know the first gripe would be "wtf no bladed armor" but to me the talent is highly overrated since it scales incredibly poorly. Armor doesnt increase very much, so that solid boost doesnt get mch better, and the 2% from bone armor, assuming you keep it up all the time, actually gives nearly the same dps at higher atp than Bladed. add in even just a 1% average from desecration and it makes up for it - plus the gain of a third personal disease increases BCB a fairly sinificant amount, not to mention blood strike as well gains a bonus not reliant on your weapon. And if there isnt an unholy DK around (and i made this spec mostly for 5 mans and heroics cause I dont plan to raid much so this is very likely) you gain a buff to disease damage completely irreplacable by anything but a DK.
I fiddled with some numbers and found not much could be done to make this much better for what I was going for. Going deeper into frost really gives a pretty insignificant boost to dps with what you give up, and going into blood is the same deal. The only thing I question is if I would need subversion at all for threat- but 1 or 2 points of crypt fever could be sacrificed for that without too major a loss.
Tell me what you think, although its set in stone for me I would like to know how more experienced people would consider it.
IMO if you're DPSing as frost you need Guild of Gorefiend, and you need to gear for crit.
I don't know why you're taking Crypt Fever. If you're dual wielding your damage won't be coming from your diseases.
Hell. Even as Unholy your damage doesn't come from your diseases.
Edit: Little bit more on your proposed spec...(I'm assuming you wanted feedback)
The only thing I see this build having in it's favor is the perma-ghoul and 5/5 Impurity. The rest of the time you take the first half of the inner-tree synergy-combos and leave out the second half.
You (like a few others I've seen...Hint: they did it wrong too) take Summon Gargoyle and go more than 18 points into frost without taking Runic Power Mastery. If you're going to frost/unholy hybrid with Summon Gargoyle you need to support it. It's a RP hog. In an unholy spec when you summon your gargoyle it's the only thing you get to have going. The rest of your time gets spent generating RP as fast as humanly possible to sustain it. RPM would give you that 30 RP buffer to keep a gargoyle going for 10 full seconds past the summon before you even needed to think about generating more RP. It makes keeping that thing up the full third of the time effortless (speaking from experience here...tried it in the beta a few times).
Trust me. If you're going to hybrid spec and disregard everything that makes the trees you're specing into interesting, you'll need to pimp what you DO take or the spec just won't be either fun to play, or effective. In your case you're looking at a gargoyle spec. You need to pimp it (god knows you're not going for a Howling Blast spec...you missed GoG!)
Now, you took Chill of the Grave but you skipped Dirge? Why? With Summon Gargoyle in your build that choice makes no sense what so ever. You're going to be starved for runic power 1/3rd of the time and you missed what are probably the most important 2 talent points in the whole unholy tree. Yet you found room for 2/3 Outbreak? You do realize that Outbreak doesn't actually increase the damage the diseases deal right? It's just a modifier for the damage Pestilence deals when it spreads the diseases.
I realize you needed to spend one point at that tier to make up for the lack of a point you could spend in the next tier, but why not Corpse Explosion? Granted you can't get Night of the Dead but you'll still get more damage out of it than you would ever get out of Outbreak.
Now, I'm baffled at your talent choices in Frost.
You took frost deep enough to get Howling Blast, but neglected to go deep enough to make it truly shine.
Yet you took 5/5 Killing Machine 0_o
Now, HB is nice, and KM is really nice.
But Guild of Gorefiend is what really makes spending the other 6 points really, really, REALLY work. Especially after sinking 8 points into IIT and Black Ice.
Then you went and skipped Annihilation. Probably one of the most effective talents in the whole frost tree.
Blood DKs will go out of their way to get Annihilation.
Unholy DKs eye it with more than a bit of jealousy.
Why in God's name would you skip it?
Finally, you took Bone Shield and skipped Frigid Dreadplate. From your post and the seeming intent of the build it looks to me as if you're after the 2% damage buff rather than the 40% damage reduction. Yet you're willing to NOT get GoG and SKIP Annihilation.
To be quite honest I hope this spec isn't set in stone for you. If I were a raid leader I, honestly and bluntly, would bench you until you respeced if you tried to pass this off as a serious spec. It's not going to work like you think it will.
So, the way I'm seeing these builds break down is that DW-specs come in 3 distinct flavors:
1) Focus on HB and FS via Killing Machine (and MAYBE Deathchill, wondering about using that if you pry loose a spare point). They amount to 0/44/18 +9, going down Unholy specifically to grab Necrosis and BCB.
-My version of this build is 3/50/18, since I like Tundra Stalker and see Subversion as something that needs to be taken (one point can probably be dropped for Shadow of Death).
2) Focus on a combination of the Gargoyle with Impurity and Runic Power Mastery at the cost of Frost Strike bonuses. They amount to 0/31/26 +14, maximizing RP generation as much as possible.
-I haven't looked that hard into this version, but what I have so far is 3/42/26, taking Frost Strike for the times between Gargoyles. Not sure if I like this build, and since much of the threat will come from the Gargoyle rather than yourself, Subversion might well be dropped to take Guile of Gorefiend. Is the Butchery RP generation worth stretching for in this build?
3) Tri-spec, focusing more on the weapon hits themselves. Goes down the Blood tree for Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Base formula for the build is 15/31/18 +7, and with a little stretching can be made to utilize the Gargoyle as well.
-I'm nowhere near as secure on this, but my variant is 18/34/19. Feel free to bash if I forgot something important.
All builds linchpin on Icy Talons, Howling Blast, Necrosis, and Blood Caked Blade.
Last edited by PsyBomb : 11/26/08 at 12:23 PM.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
Thats a nice summary, although the individual builds have some questionable choices. I would argue for a build similar to this as skeleton. I prefer Virulence to Ravenous Dead, but I haven't done the maths on raid level equipment. In a similar vein, I'm not too fond of OB and, by extension, Annihilation, but feel free to take it instead of other frost choices
The subspecs you posted all distribute their 21 free points among two trees, so a 2 out of 3 flavor model seems more appropriate:
Subspeccing Blood gives you raw power without subtlety
Subspeccing Frost gives you big crits, high emphasis on spell damage, but requires a more complex rotation/priority queue to maximise KM/HB interaction
Subspeccing Unholy gives you more emphasis on spells without big changes in the rotation, a nifty dps cooldown and a permanent buddy
Edited comments on your proposed builds:
First build, I'm not too happy about Tundra Stalker, since it "only" increases spell and ability damage. While this probably includes Necrosis damage (maybe BCB?), white damage is still big.
The second build lacks GoG, even though you have invested 40+pts in Frost. That's just a no-go. Blood of the North+3pts are the "cost" of getting GoG, not the other way round.
If you must have Subversion, drop the points out of Impurity instead. Also, you are commited deep enough in Unholy to get Master of Ghouls. Unless the little bugger croaks in every fight, that is bound to be more powerful than maxed out impurity(Unless you hate managing pets).
For the third build, Death Rune Mastery is not worth it. It converts FU to D, and those are the runes in short supply.
Last edited by Malthoreniel : 11/26/08 at 1:10 PM.
Thanks for the tips. I'm changing my builds now (though I probably won't have time to finish before I have to go to work). My inexperience here shows, since I had to give away my Beta key and don't yet have Lich King (don't ask). I greatly disagree with skipping Annihilation in your skeleton, though you have a very good point on Ravenous Dead versus Virulence. My skeleton is now 0/31/18.
In the Gargoyle build, moving the point into Master of Ghouls makes moving the 3 points from Virulence back into Ravenous Dead a better option, IMHO. Just a thought, since this seems to be evolving into a DW-Pets build (not that I mind, makes it a bit easier to redefine some stuff in my own head). Thus: 0/45/26. I'd need to see some math on it, but the last point in Killing Machine might be better spent on Impurity.
Speaking of which, as crit rating rises there will most definitely come a point at which Killing Machine is no longer worth the last 1-3 points. I am nowhere near secure enough on advanced probability to place that point, though.
Last edited by PsyBomb : 11/26/08 at 2:58 PM.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
First, its my first time posting on EJ, but I read that forum quite often, I like the way you guys analyse the way the game work.
Second, I am currently leveling, my DK shes now 72, and I am spec'ed toward DWing from the start. I've toyed with talent since the beginning at first I tryed some random stuff but when I got into your DPS compendium and saw that tri-spec I had to try it. It was nice during all Outland I was always top dps but that dont matter once you get in Northrend!
I found the tri-spec quite boring and was looking at the talents and was telling myself what Blood really bring over going more deeper into Frost. Right now i am trying a build that still need some work. I dont know if I should take anticipation 5 rather the 2/2 Vicious Strike and 3/3 Morbidity and I think screwing Ravenous Dead and take Virulence since most of my dmg come from spells. In frost I want to go up to Tundra Stalker.
With that i will have 0/50/18 +3 points to spend somewhere i was thinking after reading this thread on getting Rune Power Mastery because sometimes i do generate more runic power then i have time to spend.
When I had the Tri-spec about 30% of my damage was from HB then it was white damage and was using DS when HB was on cooldown, until I notice that OB dont eat my disease due to Annihilation. I was using DC as a runic dumping power but FS seem way more efficient atm and to scale better since it crit so often thanks to KM and crit for alot because of GoG.
My usual rotation is IT -> PS -> HB -> FS -> BS -> BS -> FS -> IT -> PS -> HB -> FS -> OB(Death rune from the 2 previous BS) -> FS. Or something along those line.
I am usualy in Unholy stance, I love the haste it give and the quicker GCD. While I solo, I often use DS to heal myself about every 2 fights so I dont have to stop, with the glyph and the amount of runic power I generate it heal for quite alot!
I start to understand more and more the way DK work and I am getting better or managing my runes properly and my runic power, I does still sometimes hit the runic power cap and lost some runic power now and there and I still have some problem learning to tank effectively with a DK, mainly to keep aggro on t5-t6 geared peoples going all out at the start.
I took Unbreakable Armor over Deathchill, its useful for OT or tanking regular and maybe heroic(when i will get there), it also provide a +10% str that can be nice to use with a trinket on a boss during a BL.
Yesterday I finally had the chance to test my 14/31/26 DW build that's the max DPS DW spec according to spreadsheets against Patchwerk, I was #3 with 3556 DPS in what I'd call very subpar gear(see my armory, minus my first ring and bracers with both Naxx10 swords). Sadly I got no WWS as I didn't get to get information on level 80 WWS yet.
I could've even gotten some more DPS as I hadn't specced Master of Ghouls because of the ghoul dying on most important encounters. That build is also awesome in AoE encounters, HB after pestilence easily does 8k per mob when Killing Machine is active.
I was thinking the following two builds could potentially be viable DW-dps specs. I haven't had the chance to test them out yet, as I have not yet aquired any decent one handers. But I thought I'd run them buy you guys anyway.
Not much I can say about it other than that it's somewhat experimental, but it seems that one would obtain a good amount of AP with this build from Bladed Armor and the +x% strength talents, which is always nice for DW. Also the four points in Dark Conviction should help with getting more Killing Machine procs.
I was thinking after making that first build whether the whole Killing Machine >> Icy Touch/Howling Blast crit concept would be that great without Guile of Gorefiend and Tundra Stalker.
So with this build in comparison to the Tri-spec I would gain:
- 45% additional critical strike damage bonus for HB/IT/FS
- FS (though i'm guessing DC > FS with a 1 hander)
- 8% damage increase to spells/abilities and 4 expertise
- Death Runes
- Frost Aura for raid utility
And I would lose:
- a good deal of AP from Bladed Armor
- 4% critical strike chance
- a little bit of RP generation
- 9% Blood Strike and Obliterate critical strike chance (although again with one handers that doesn't seem like much of a loss)
I can't really decide which one would be better in theory, and I probably won't be able to test it for a while. SO I'd appreciate any opinions on the matter.
(PS I was lazy and just skimmed the thread a little - so I'm hoping these builds haven't been discussed yet (I can recall seeing similar ones but not these exact ones))
Holydeadpenguins, no Annihilation is not a good idea in this kind of build. To be honest, the disease preservation on Obliterate is just a bonus (although it is a very nice one), the talent boosts the crit rate of the abilities that are not weapon dependent, which form nearly as much DPS as white hits.
Wildstyle, both builds are close to ones presented earlier, though I have a couple of things I disagree with there. Deathchill has no place in a build sporting 5/5 Killing Machine, especially once gear levels start to come up, since it'll be harder and harder to find times when it'll actually do anything. The only other thing is that the Gargoyle, for the most part, is not worth taking without Impurity. 0/44/27 is what you want if the Gargoyle is your thing (some of the points are of course debatable, particularly prying some loose for RP Mastery). Tundra Stalker would take a 2/50/19 type of setup. It is unfortunate, but the two seem to be mutually exclusive style choices.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
Holydeadpenguins, no Annihilation is not a good idea in this kind of build. To be honest, the disease preservation on Obliterate is just a bonus (although it is a very nice one), the talent boosts the crit rate of the abilities that are not weapon dependent, which form nearly as much DPS as white hits.
Blood strike and plague strike are the only strikes i use. They make up a combined 7% of my dmg, 3% extra crit isn't going to help much. In unholy presence, killing machine is up so much that 72% of my howling blasts crit, and 51% of my icy touches crit. As soon as i fill blood of the north and get frost strike + guile of gorefiend, blood strike and plague strike damage should be an even smaller percentage of my dmg, even less if all death runes are used for howling blasts.
Last edited by holydeadpenguins : 11/28/08 at 12:39 AM.
My work on a frost based duel wielding setup is doing better than I expected. It is designed around Unholy Presence and is built around the 1.0 sec GCD and maximizing Killing Machine. The build is 0/50/21 with 1 point in Dirge. I determined that you can do the rotation with just one point in Dirge as long as you play correctly and know your rotations. With this setup, you are constantly doing things so if you like spamming buttons a lot, this one is a lot of fun.
Here's how it works: Generating a lot of runic power to generate Frost Strikes. All the abilities you use will be single rune abilities with the exception of a Rime powered Howling Blast. This requires the Icy Touch glyph, Chill to the Grave, and 1 point in Dirge. You use the slowest main-hand you can find and the fastest off-hand. You get 25% haste from Improved Icy Talons and 15% haste from Unholy presence. All of these white hits generate a ton of Killing Machine procs.
Use Blood Tap just prior to when you start DPS so one Blood rune is a Death Rune. You should have 1 point in Rune Power mastery (110 RP max). The reason for the Blood Tap is to maximize your chance for a Rime Proc in the first 10 second rotation.
PS (11.5) -> IT (24) -> IT (24) -> IT (24) -> BS (9) -> PS (11.5) -> FS (-41) -> FS (-41)
If you proc Rime (45% chance), you place it between the two frost strikes.
PS (11.5) -> IT (24) -> FS (-41) -> IT (24) -> IT (24) -> BS (9) -> PS (11.5) -> FS (-41) -> FS (-41)
Which leaves you with 2-3 runic power remaining if you are unlucky enough not to proc Rime (10% chance). If you procced Rime the first time, you have an extra 19 runic power for the next rotation. If you proc it on the second rotation, you fire the howling blast and the second rotation goes slightly long.
The third one is the same as the first but you add another Frost Strike at the end. Chances are you procced Rime by now and have plenty of runic power to spare. You get the idea by now.
You will be startled by how many critical hits you get from this kind of setup. Two thirds of your rotation become auto criticals when Killing Machine procs.
Here's some numbers. Your 2.6 speed mainhand goes to 1.81 speed and your 1.5 speed offhand becomes 1.04 speed without any haste rating at all. You average about 1.9 Killing Machine procs every 10 seconds if you have a 25% critical chance (low for a raid). At 30% critical chance, you average around 2.2 Killing Machine procs per 10 sec.
When you account for the fact that you generate obscene numbers from crits (145% crit strike bonus + Meta Gem bonus), this adds up fast.
Right now, I am trying to determine if Dirge is even necessary. The build has a 90% chance of proccing Rime in 20 seconds. If it does proc, Dirge isn't necessary at all. If it doesn't (the RNG hates you), the third Frost Strike in the second rotation won't be there because you'll be just a little short on runic power due to runic power decay.
If you go with 3/50/18 and proc Rime according to statistical averages, you can maintain the rotations just fine. It'll also have less threat and do more damage. But, if the RNG plays games with you, you could end up with short rotations. The question becomes: is 9% more critical on Blood Strike and 25% threat reduction worth gambling on Rime procs to finish 20 second rotations.
The variance in DPS is quite extensive. It's making it very difficult to rank this build in comparison to the standard Frost DPS build.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
- FS (though i'm guessing DC > FS with a 1 hander)
You must think about each talent in frost : you gain 10% (glacier rot), 30% (black ice), 3% crit (annihilation), KM and +45% on crit with GoG (I don't use Toundra stalker because it's 10% for FS and DC). And DC has 15% (morbidity) and maybe 3% hit (virulence) and +25% AP (Impurity). But FS is a 9% miss and DC 17% miss because it's a spell.
Moreover, a DW DK have a slow MH, because of the different strikes, and BCB.
I have made some basic calculations (i don't have them anymore, but crit was simply implemented, and no KM), and FS was the winner, but for slow MH.
I think a good DW build begin with a 0(3?)/31/18 (i don't know if subversion is mandatory for the threat reduction). There are two ways after : Frost is about crit, so you want FS+GoG (even if GoG doesn't impact IT) or you know you use a lot of spell, and you want Impurity. After that, you have good talent : reaping (better than BotN), the ghoul (maybe not so good in raid), desecration and Bone shield.
On the other hand, Bladed armor is maybe better than impurity. But Dark Conviction is not so good, only the melee part is good, because you will be under KM for HB and IT.
I think about a 3/50/18 or 9/44/18 for my DK. But i'm wondering if Epidemic is a good talent for a DW build. Is OB better than 2 IT ? If the answer is no, then you just lose the two ticks of blood plague and win 2% hit on your spell (IT, HB, DC if you don't have FS) ou 2% str.
Edit :
PS (11.5) -> IT (24) -> IT (24) -> IT (24) -> BS (9) -> PS (11.5) -> FS (-41) -> FS (-41)
If you proc Rime (45% chance), you place it between the two frost strikes
You have 15% for a rime proc per IT. So you have 85% for no proc. 3 IT, so 61,4% of no proc after 3 IT. So if you want at least one proc, you have 100%-61.4% = 38.6%, not 45%
So again, why does everybody ignore my 14/31/26(or 13/31/27 if you want to maximize DPS when the ghoul stays alive) build? It's not only the maximum DW dps build according to method's spreadsheet, but also the most logical if you look at the gains of each talent point.
Annihilation is one of the worst talents in a DW build by the way, an one-handed Obliterate does minimally more damage than an IT and less than IT+PS in my build and the 3% crit only applies to BS/PS which are less than 10% of my total damage.
So again, why does everybody ignore my 14/31/26(or 13/31/27 if you want to maximize DPS when the ghoul stays alive) build? It's not only the maximum DW dps build according to method's spreadsheet, but also the most logical if you look at the gains of each talent point.
Annihilation is one of the worst talents in a DW build by the way, an one-handed Obliterate does minimally more damage than an IT and less than IT+PS in my build and the 3% crit only applies to BS/PS which are less than 10% of my total damage.
Guile of gorefiend increases dps more than all 14 points in blood.
Guile of gorefiend increases dps more than all 14 points in blood.
I doubt it does. Some simple napkin maths from my last Patchwerk kill with my spec:
HB: ~25% of total damage, ~80% Crit
BS: ~7% of total damage, ~30% Crit
~4000 AP without Bladed Armor
~15000 Armor (=417 AP)
Guilde of Gorefiend:
HB:
25%/1.8=13.9% without crits
13.9%*(1+0.8*1.45)=30%
BS:
7%/1.3=5.4%
5.4%*(1+0.3*1.45)=7.73%
Total increase:
~5.73% damage
Bladed Armor alone increases my AP by ~10% which should result in an increase larger than 5.73% for obvious reasons so Bladed Armor alone beats Guile of Gorefiend.
11/25/08, 4:14 PM
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