im a bit confused, from what ive read 32/39 its best to use fast/fast? how comes everyone i have seen on here using that spec has slow/fast? is it just bad luck on drops?
Would like this to be clarified since im either going to buy the titansteel mace or Avool's Sword of Jin for my main hand.

what

it's never best to use fast/fast. unless i'm missing something which I doubt.

also, can someone tell me the 32/39 rotation?

Yes you missed about the last 10 pages of this thread....


PS>IT>HB>BS>BS>DC
HB>PS>IT>DC>HB>DC

Something like that

on pretty much every page fast/fast is mentioned so yes you are missing something.

But still remains the fact that i have yet to see anyone using fast/fast, everyone is using slow/fast with 32/39 spec, which i dont actually understand (if fast/fast is better)

That's the rotation I use, the issue is I see DKs in worse gear doing more damage than me. I don't know If it's just me failing or my rotation.

They seem to also have IT as a larger part of their damage.

As I understand it, fast/fast is best for builds that only go deep enough into frost for Howling Blast. A fast mainhand gives more DPS from better Kiling Machine uptime and to a lesser extent, Blood Caked Blade and Necrosis. The overall math is quite similar to the reasoning behind using fast/fast daggers for Assassination on rogues now. These Howling Blast based builds also provide better scaling with haste and Unholy Presence than other DK builds, I think. As in, haste actually improves yellow damage for a DW build.

There are two simple reasons why many people use slow/fast:
a) They don't know about the maths regarding that topic.
b) They don't have two fast weapons. Most fast weapons tend to be Daggers which DKs can't use. There's only a few fast DPS Swords/Maces and you need two of them.

A lot of people are also used to the Rogue theory of slow mh/fast oh and would not readily assume fast/fast is the way to go for DK since you're maximizing spell damage.

I'll probably start with slow/fast because the only 1h sword I have at the moment is [Torment of the Banished]

However I'm not sure if downgrading to a weapon like [Fang of Truth] is worth it for the speed increase.

I might try out dual wield on the next Naxx-10 run we're doing, however i might just stick with my newly obtained [Death's Bite] until the patch at least.

Some good questions I'd like answered as well.

On the last point, i think it definitely is. As an unholy DK (18/0/53) the difference between ghoul uptime on a large amount of the fights with and without NotD is huge.
Ghoul control will go a long long way in minimizing the dependency on NotD
Anub'rekan Locust Swarm / Widow Rain of Fire / Heigan Dance / 4HM auras / Sartharion). In all of the mentioned fights ghoul control can play a big role. However there are fights (Grobbulus / Razuvius / Sapphiron) where you cant escape AoE situations, and in those situations NotD is a great addition. Also in the ones i mentioned you can help with ghoul control, but it doesnt grantee it stays alive. I've seen pet pathing mess up enough times on Heigan that i wish my ghoul had the 75% aoe spell avoidance.

Also consider that a major selling point of Crypt Fever is not just the extra disease damage, its also a 3th disease for attacks like Blood-Caked Blade, and 1 point is essentially enough for that

Looking forward to seeing some replies on the other questions you posted though, because I've been wondering about those myself. I'm guessing Cinderglacier is nearly equal Fallen Crusader (although i could be miles off :P), except if the procs get eaten by Necrosis, but I'm not sure if that happens.

I have seen several people mention Avool's Sword of Jin as a fast weapon to use in dual wield. Do you think it would be a better choice to get two Avool's Sword of Jin, or one Avool's Sword and then get the badges for Grasscutter as my offhand? Would it be better to use up the money on buying Avool's Swords (which I never see any of in the AH on my server) or do you think I should just grind badges for Grasscutter, and raid until I get another fast mainhand?

I use slow/fast for the time being because atm the stats my slow main hand offer are superior to my fast MH option. I've tested both Maexxna's Femur and TS Bonecrusher on the boss training dummy in Ebon Hold, and my results were pretty much the same with my TS Bonecrusher setup coming out slightly ahead. I tested each setup 3 times in 5 minute sessions. In my special case, slow/fast is yielding slightly better results simply due to the stat difference of my alternative fast main hand.

After trying 32/39 on patchwerk in unholy presence,it seems that I gained 200 dps compared to unholy. I Will do some further testing.

Does anyone have any direct comparision numbers who went from 2 hander unholy to dual wield spec?

edit: Gain in dps not loss, grammar.

I wouldn´t take such a comparison as valid, only after some solid raiding can you be comfortable with a different specc to compare any differences. You cant expect to go DW and immediately maximise its potencial overnight

Do we have some AEP values for 32/39 Builds?

I'm playing 2H Unholy at the moment and value Strength very highly after beeing hit/expertise capped. Doing some napkin math crit should have a higher value for 32/39 than 2H Unholy. Is this correct?

well I have been doing heroics to get used to my rotation and write macros since our guild is on holiday. Tonight we did a 25 man satharion and 10 man naxxramas. Usually I average 30xx on patchwerk (recount) that went up to 32xx tonight after speccing 32/39 and when gargoyle was up 41xx dps .

What's more important is how much less effort than 2h unholy it took to bring out great numbers.

Obviously aoe dps plummited compared to unholy

So the advantages of Razorice, necrosis, and BCB on a slow mainhand ( in addition to how haste works with a slower mainhand) don't outweigh the extra KM procs?

I think Cabal's point is that comparing one single patchwerk fight to another and coming to any conclusions about DPS isn't rigorous. It's a three and a half minute fight -- a lot can happen to increase your overall DPS by 200. Doesn't necessarily prove one spec's better than another.

For instance, summoning your gargoyle during bloodlust can account for at least a 150 DPS increase all on its own. Statistics with one data point is fun, but isn't statistics.

To the_mort: the state of DW is going to change DRASTICALLY with the next patch. Until it hits, until we settle on a best rotation, and until we start to see some WWS'es that look pretty similar to each other in damage composition, I don't think we can come up with AEP values.

Necrosis behaves identically on both slow and fast weapons.

BCB is normalized, so only the "weapon damage" part is lower -- the damage lost isn't that much (but hasn't been modeled, to my knowledge).

And Razorice on a MH? Also, what do you mean about haste affecting a slower MH differently?

I don't think we've reached a resounding consensus with S/F vs. F/F. I think people are leaning toward F/F for 32/39, which is much less strike dependent, and are leaning toward S/F for 44/27 if FS is used as the RP dump.

I think the only consensus we've reached is that any assumed losses of F/F are minimal.

I tried 32/39 today on the level 80 training dummies. I managed to do 3.4k dps with S/F and about 3.1k with F/F.
For F/F I used Hailstorm/Grasscutter and S/F I used Titansteel bonecrusher/Hail storm. Now, about 250-300 dps of those were howling blast hitting 1 nearby target. I used bone shield and horn of winter as buffs. I also used the Ghoul but NOT the Gargoyle.

For the record, with S/F I used Fallen Crusader x2 cause I didn't feel like switching back and forth.

So I'm not completely sure that this whole F/F > S/F-thing is true. Now again, I might have been a little lucky with that 3.4k and unlucky with that 3.1k, but if F/F is better then it can't be better by too much.

I recorded the 3.4k-run cause I wanted to see how often KM and stuff liked that procced. But I'm thinking that 3.4k dps is pretty common among DW:ers so I'm not gonna upload it.

Anyway, can anyone show some real proof that F/F is in fact better than S/F?

32/39 is very RNG prone. Maybe you have evidence that FC/FC is better than FC/Cinder . Can't really tell without more tests.

I would do some tests myself but I don't have a good fast main hand.

The current best rotation for deep 2h frost involves skipping plague strike in order to use a second FU ability via blood tap. I'm wondering if a similar rotation would be good for a 44/27 spec after the patch hits.

A rotation such as:

Bloodtap-IT-HB-HB-BS-DUMP

Will be possible next patch. This also gives better uptime on the buff from the heroism emblem sigil, as you're bloodstriking every rotation. Is this extra howling blast worth losing plague strike + blood plague + bcb damage?