Broseph

Just a quick note to bionh regarding the sigils, next patch, [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] will be *the* sigil to use for DW. This makes IT even more competitive with HB damagewise, and might bring IT/PS closer to the extra HB (if you can afford the cooldowns). It also removes sigil uptime from the equation.

 

Aisuken

I did a couple of quick tests today on a test dummy to compare FC/RI to CG/RI using a fast/fast setup. FC came out decisively ahead, but it was a difference of about 2200 to about 3100 over ~3 mins. Chances are the bigger factor was that during the test where I used Fallen Crusader, I summoned my Gargoyle while both my Mirror of Truth and Sphere of Red Dragon's Blood were active, as opposed to only the sphere during the CG test, given the short test it is likely that was more the issue. I would have tested longer had I not had to go to Naxx. I think FC is likely the superior enchant even given a more even test though. I can't imagine that when I summoned the gargoyle would make that significant a difference. The other thing to mention is that using Cinderglacier my DPS started very low and slowly climbed to about 2200 with the Gargoyle's help, whereas useing Fallen Crusader my DPS jumped way up to about 3300 while the Gargoyle was active, fell to about 3100 and maintained around that mark for the remainder.

Ultimately my testing is probably just full of fail, but Fallen Crusader seems to me to be the superior of the 2. If for no other reason, simply by the reasoning that Unholy Strength procs give a solid boost to all of your damage sources for it's duration, whereas Cinderglacier only effects the next 2 IT/HB/DC, and possibly even less than that if another proc occurs before the charges are consumed.

As far as f/f vs s/f, I can't provide any solid evidence either way. I have personally been using f/f for a couple weeks now and it seems a fairly solid DPS increase. This was also using Widow's Fury for a MH (156dps) as opposed to Titansteel Bonecrusher (143dps) and so its hard to say how much can be attributed to weapon speed and how much to weapon DPS. The consensus of late seems to be that f/f is superior though and my own experience does seem to tend that way. It's difficult to tell definitively though, to me at least. Your trading a static damage boost to weapon damage for a higher chance to proc a guaranteed IT/HB crit, and so its very RNG dependant.

EDIT:
After posting this I did a bit longer tests for CG/FC. Tests were ~6 mins long this time, and more equal on the whole. FC sat at ~2900 after 6 mins and CG was at ~2750. The one thing to consider however is that this time the dummy was at 0 health during the test whereas previously it was well above 50%. I'm unsure how this would effect numbers beyond necrosis being unable to deal more than 1. I assume that recount also takes overkill into consideration and counts it towards damage done, but depending on how overkills are treated, cinderglacier would only make abilities overkill by more.

 

froggiess

did 5502 dps on patchwerk this week as 0/32/39 with silent crusader MH hailstorm OH

edit: ill post WWS when i get the link from my guildy.

 

• Darkside

Unless you're prepared to back up such claims with a WWS parse or at the very least a recount SS, statements like this are entirely meaningless.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Xabora

Not bad, But I noticed about a 400 DPS difference on the boss test dummy without FC on my MH.

Now after performing some testing a 0/32/39 build with F/F & Unholy Presence I averaged about 4000dps on Patchwerk.
So far FC [MH] and CG [OH] has given me the most stable dps output, but I still want to perform some more tests with RI for my OH and see how my damage averages with it.

Ingame Recount: http://i39.tinypic.com/s0zqxy.jpg
WMO Breakdown: WOW Meter Online - Order of the Silver Hand ( Raid Group 1 ) - US-Madoran - Patchwerk

Just an FYI, I received the grobby ring + ring of death later on in the raid.

 

Hyperaktiv

This.

If you were to experiment and prove a hypothesis right/wrong, you would in that case make at least a dozen of test runs with the same existing conditions for best comparable data. Naturally, since there's so much RNG involved and other things we cannot control (hit, miss, crit, ms, procs, reaction time etc) we cannot bring one definite conclusion to the table, only potential conclusions.

 

Faithplusone

So, would you go with Armor Penetration or Haste rating while Dual Wielding if you had to choose? Been wondering about this for a while since everybody said before that haste sucks for DKs.

 

Faithplusone

After alot of testing (more than yesterday) I can almost safely say that F/F > S/F, but no by much. Not quite sure what rotations you are using but I use my own and I'm happy with it. But what I try to do is never to use Icy Touch two or three times in a row or right before I use howling blast. It's a waste of KM proccs.

So if I just used Icy Touch, I have HB on cooldown, Frost runes up and enough Runic power for Death Coil, then I'll use death coil. There's point in wasting a frost rune on an Icy Touch that's probably not gonna be a crit. Doing makes me crit about 60-75% of the time on my Icy Touches and Howling blasts.

The amount of damage I do is pretty much always based on how often I crit with IT and HB. So if I know EXACTLY what to do with my KM-proccs and I can keep track of them at the same time I'm keeping track of all the cooldowns and runes, I think I could do an extra 200 dps.

 

Foxx2405

Well I think you can't just say it like that. I think there is more into it. Cinderglacier, from what I've seen, has a higher procrate than CG. And remember its a 20% damage boost to 3 of our main attacks: Icy Touch / Howling Blast and Deathcoil.

Saying that CG is better right of the bet is a hard call.

Now if test shows it is, which I just read it probably is, thats ok. I was kind of guessing that it would. That still keeps up the question CG vs RI for offhand.

My guess is that RI helps a lot more if you also have mages in the raid, since its a 10% frost damage increase to everyone. If you don't have mages (could be in 10 mans), it gets more interesting because then its gonna depend on the CG proc uptime I guess.

Yea crit is definitely higher, and so is Haste. Thats purely because of Killing Machine though.

No, and its not just KM

Necrosis is equal for both fast and slow main hands.
I cant really think of the advantage razorice would have on a slow main hand over a fast one, unless you're using frost strikes or talking about the higher procrate of Razorice on strikes (since its a PPM). I don't see either as a viable something.

Blood-Caked Blades is an interesting subject. At the moment it is normalized which makes no sense whatsoever really, but its true.
That means that even though you get more procs on a faster weapon (30% proc rate and not a PPM), a slow weapon doesnt do much more damage. In fact the only damage difference comes from the higher average damage on your weapon. And thats even downsized by the fact BCB doesnt do 100% weapon damage.

So basically we have a situation where the fast main hand might cause 30% more procs than a slow main hand. And yet only do 50-100 damage more per strike.
Blizzard might change this though since abilities like Sword Specialization (and windfury but thats more complicated due to the cooldown) don't have this normalization limitation.

 

Foxx2405

Actually I've been discussing this on another forum, and we came up with a rotation something like:

BS > HB > BS > HB
IT > HB > IT > HB

Now most people scream murder and fire because the first rotation is done without diseases. But the point is that the rotation is a lot more tight than say a rotation like:
IT>PS>BS>BS>HB
HB>IT>IT>HB
or something in that general direction

And rotations like that are not limited to dual wield.
2H Unholy can do it too:
BS>BS>SS>SS
IT>PS>SS>SS

Its a pain to start up, and that causes such 4/4 rotations to be a pain on mobile fights where you have to restart it each time. But for static nuke fights like Patchwerk, im still wondering why 4/4 rotations aren't seen more than 5/3 rotations. (Unless it has to do with diseases falling off)

This is a fairly simple question you could've answered yourself as well.

As dual wield you rely a lot on non-weapon damage (Icy Touch / Howling Blast / Deathcoil) so getting Armor Penetration is only slightly above getting intellect :P

Haste on the other hand is quite good as dual wield, since dual wield has higher white damage and a lot of proc (KM / BCB) that increase with haste.

Thats why I'm personally so interested in Dual Wield all of a sudden. Basically since Dual Wield gets so much more out of stats that we're confronted with (Haste / Hit / Crit) than 2H does (haste doesnt help 2H much, hitcap is reached quickly / crit doesnt do anything special unless you spec KM as 2H frost).
You can get much more out of your gear i feel by speccing DW.

 

Faithplusone

Hehe yeah, I figured it armor penetration sucked pretty hard but I just wanted it confirmed since I wasn't sure how much exactly armor penetration boosts my white damage and my blood strike damage.

 

Sacerdos

Something that you can do is use Empower Rune Weapon so you can start with Diseases, then reset your Runes and do this 4/4 rotation.

Edit: Hey Foxx2405, I think this rotation could be great for a 2H Frost Build that includes Epidemic. I'm gonna make a post about it in the Frost DPS thread.

Edit 2: Reconsidered. I forgot that the new frost rotation was already a 4/4.

 

Illundai

Heya,

Most of you will know that I'm the author of the TTT DK DPS article. I'm looking at (finally) updating that, so I'm looking for some help with the DW section, still labeled Tri-Spec. I'll be renaming it to just "Dual-Wield" builds. However, DW doesn't really interest me, so I'm very uneducated when it comes to it. So I'm looking for someone who can make a good summary (like we have for Blood, Unholy & Frost - although they still need their updates too) and if possible if you could PM that to me. Do agree on who does it though, so I don't get multiple summaries with different opinions . It's pretty impossible for me to be up to date for 100% on the huge variety of specs that DKs bring, so I prefer doing it this route.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

Frostx

I'm sorry for the vague info but a guildmate of mine did ~5048 dps on Patchwerk(25) today with this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft using Titansteel 1h Mace (MH) and Hailstorm (OH). I didn't get a screenshot or WWS and i apologize. I do swear that this is no lie however, and hope this will help somewhat in your discussions.

[e] corrected the talent tree - i'm not sure if he ran 1/3 outbreak + 2/2 dirge or just 3/3 outbreak, but it shouldn't matter much.

 

Valhalla

Lately I have noticed that more and more DK's are going to a DW build for dps. Is the new theorycrafting leaning that direction as opposed to 2h builds? As much as I would like to test it, I do not have the weapons to be able to as my primary role is our guild's aoe tank.

 

Infenwe

@Frostx: I can't imagine him having points in Dirge. That talent does nothing for dual wield since you never use OB, DS or SS with anything but a 2H.

Well... I suppose you could use Scourge Strike with one of those deep unholy DW builds that people have posted about in this thread. But I guess that's for lack of a better option (in the form of HB, obviously).

 

fishy

I have just worked my way through this megathread and it contains a lot of useful and very helpful information, thanks to all the contributors. I would love to see all this information be put together in one comprehesive article. I do however recommend to split it from your TTT article and maybe suggest an article specifically catering towards Dual Wield PvE Speccs. I was thinking about this these past days while I worked my way through this thread, but I'm not expirienced enough to write up such an article, nor am I any good at math.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would care to write up an article. I know it's a time consuming endeavour, but I'm sure the community would greatly appreciate it and minimalize lots of redundant posts here asking the same questions over and over again. What's up with that anyway... ?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL.../kugelfish.png

 

Sylari

I use razorice on my mainhand occasionally ( RI/CG using S/F , figured I'd try that out, didn't see any significant change except for razorfrost hitting a bit harder ), the mages claim it helps them out a lot, and there's another frost DK that tends to run in the group... .and nevermind my comment on haste with a slower weapon... it's really a nonissue.

I'm new to dual wielding as a DK though if you haven't noticed, was wondering what the preferred major glyphs are for 32/39 ( other than ghoul obviously ) and what majors at all for 15/31/25...

Lastly, am I correct in assuming that with HB going off the cooldown, trispec will be completely dead compared to builds with death rune skills?
Not sure exactly what the theorycrafting is, but I know for the people who frequent the official forums there's been a lot of noise about 0/32/39 after a few WWSes were put up...

 

Epicness

Hey guys, I have a question. I think I know the answer, but I just want to clarify. Do you use Death Coil or Frost Strike in your rotation when gargoyle is up? I don't think you would, but I just want to make sure. It seems it would take up too much RP if you did.

 

Broseph

You should use DC or FS during gargoyle, but only very sparingly.

As a rule of thumb, I only use an RP skill if using it will take me to no less than 40 RP *and* I have runes available (or almost available). Especially with the IT glyph, which will be a no brainer next patch, you will generate more than enough RP than you need to keep the gargoyle up, but you have to be conservative. And even then, it is good to be quick with Empower Rune Weapon (and Horn of Winter next patch) to keep the garg up in emergencies.

Using rune skills that will put you over your max RP is always a straight up DPS loss, gargoyle or no.

Then again, I guess it also depends on the fight. The boss that comes to mind first is Ionar in Halls of Lightning, who goes immune for long periods of time. Fights like that would be the exception where you'd want to be RP capped as much as possible.

 

Aqila

Uh, I had a epic wall of text, a whole revolution to post here, and then I find out that I need to have 10 posts to post a thread.

World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> The Icy Touch spec, insane DPS

I would be very grateful if someone could create a thread and call it "Icy Touch spec", copy paste the whole thing. I think this actually does deserve a separate discussion. This isn't a build which tries to optimize DW, this is a build which uses DW to optimize the IT/KM synergy.

I am Thaya, the author. Old acc with my pre-WOTLK name. I honestly can't be bothered to run around random threads, trying to find where to post something relevant 10 times. Really.

 

dukes

Please read the thread before posting. See the following posts and those surrounding them:

http://elitistjerks.com/1026358-post466.html
http://elitistjerks.com/1027157-post486.html
http://elitistjerks.com/1026731-post477.html
http://elitistjerks.com/1028444-post507.html

All of these posts are talking about a build very similar (deep unholy with Icy Touch as the "primary" ability, using fast/fast) to the one you're proposing.

I'd agree that in some ways it would be easier if there were separate threads for discussion on each of deep frost DW, deep unholy DW and mixed unholy/frost DW builds, but keeping the discussion in one thread allows slightly easier knowledge sharing so that people aren't constantly jumping between the threads.

 

Aqila

Oh, I see. I did check the last 2-3 pages before posting, but just assumed people kept trying the 3x/3x builds.

I did specifically mention the possibility that I'm not the first to figure it out, but I haven't see any detailed description of how it works and that's something I think I did provide. And well, I'm not really familiar with the 'traditions' of forums here - excuse me - I don't mind if this stays within this thread. Not sure if I should post the whole text here though or keep it as a link to wow-eu forums.

Good to know this goes >6k DPS though... I don't think any other known DK spec can.

 

JALbert

Odd question regarding the 32/39 build... most seem to take 2 points in Merciless Combat, but from what I've seen of the WWS parses in the thread and my own experience (pre-80 still) dropping one point in Merciless Combat for another point of Crypt Fever would yield a DPS upgrade (and change the spec to 31/40).

6% bonus damage to IT and HB on targets under 35% is roughly 2% on HB and IT overall. Compared with 10% increased disease damage, that should mean that your HB/IT damage would have to be 5x your disease DoTs for Merciless Combat to be the better option. From what I remember of the breakdowns of damage in the WWS parses posted for 32/39, IT/HB wasn't always higher than disease damage by that factor, and a gain could be made by switching.

Is there some other factor in this that I'm not including? I realise 2% is an approximation that is slightly low, but if you're viewing a log with that talent already in place, the numbers should be tilted *away* from crypt fever if you're doing the factor of five approximation.

 

Epicness

Thanks for the feedback on my gargoyle question. Ill be 80 by tomorrow and I'll try to get some dps numbers to you guys. But I do have another question. Do you think it's worth spending the money on the titansteel mace (just because it's the easiest good onehander to get right away) even if I plan on using two fast weapons? I mean, would it make that much of a difference if I got the slow onehander like the titansteel mace instead of staying with my fast 120dps onehander until I can get two epic fast onehanders?