- FS (though i'm guessing DC > FS with a 1 hander)
DC > FS only if you dont go deep into frost. (X/36/18+)
If you get atleast GoG FS > DC, if you get Tundra Stalker then FS is really better then DC. (X/44+/18+)
Also if you go this deep in Frost i recommand to skip Morbidity and get some points in Anticipation.
Originally Posted by Hidden
I doubt it does. Some simple napkin maths from my last Patchwerk kill with my spec:
HB: ~25% of total damage, ~80% Crit
BS: ~7% of total damage, ~30% Crit
~4000 AP without Bladed Armor
~15000 Armor (=417 AP)
You tell me that you gain 417 AP and from that you increase your HB and IT damage by 41.7, i am not good on math but i am not sure it match the increase in damage of GoG and Tundra Stalker.
You tell me that you gain 417 AP and from that you increase your HB and IT damage by 41.7, i am not good on math but i am not sure it match the increase in damage of GoG and Tundra Stalker.
There are two problems with your logic:
a) The 417 AP apply to absolutely all my damage while GoG only increases HB and BS damage.
b) The coefficient may be 0.1, but you can't say 417 AP increase the damage by 41.7 because there are many multipliers you have to include.
There are two problems with your logic:
a) The 417 AP apply to absolutely all my damage while GoG only increases HB and BS damage.
b) The coefficient may be 0.1, but you can't say 417 AP increase the damage by 41.7 because there are many multipliers you have to include.
It increase by a 41.7 base damage then indeed when you do the maths you add all the multiplier you need to, i never said you dont add them, i said i am bad in math so i wont make the calculation.
When i check Recount most of my damage in instance come from HB almost 34% of it, then its my white hits at about 28%, followed by FS. HB got a crit rate around 58% so GoG must be really increasing my DPS since it boost my main and tertiary abilities.
Anyway i will see at 80 what is the most efficient for my play style.
Aren't Annihilation and Epidemic mostly wasted on Orlgin's suggested spec because of how often you're refreshing diseases? So this would be the core of the spec? 0/44/18+9
Wouldn't a better rotation be: (this is without Dirge)
Blood tap to start.
Rune Cycle 1: PS > IT > BS > FS(5) > IT > IT > PS > FS(25) > 2 GCD free.
Rune Cycle 2: PS > IT > IT > FS(45) > BS > IT > PS > FS(50) > FS(10) > 1 GCD free, 10 rp left over.
HB immediately when Rime procs, especially if Killing Machine is up.
FS during extra GCDs as you gain runic power.
Weaving the FSs with the rest of the rotation gives you opportunities to replace them with HB on Rime procs and dump the rp later and allows the rotation to be more forgiving of misses/dodges and occasional back-to-back Rime procs.
Why are all your runic power gains 1 rp low, while your losses are 1rp high? You mention runic power decay, but I thought it didn't decay during combat or am I missing something? If we do lose 1rp/sec. then 1/2 Dirge is necesary to maintain 5FS/rotation assuming no Rime procs. However, with a 62.2% chance of Rime procs each rotation we should gain 12.4rp/20sec. from them on average (2.4rp greater than 1/2 Dirge) so over time we shouldn't need it.
Without Dirge we either gain 22.4rp/rotation or only 2.4rp/rotation with a decay of 1rp/sec. Just .1 second of lag will reduce that to .5rp/rotation. Quite the gambler's spec.
My problem with all of this is that if you base a lot of your dps on HB, doesn't it break cc? especially in heroics, i doubt the tank is gonna move the target 10 yards away from the cc just so you can cast HB. Also, no matter what the spec is, it still seems that at lvl 80 a blood DK with a 2H does more dps to a boss then the deep frost tri spec DW. Another problem is the lack of raid utility. Sure, the haste is nice, but any shaman replaces that.
Also, what presence are you using for all of this? someone said unholy for the 15% attack speed and GCD reduction, and some say blood for 15% dmg increase. It would seem to me that if you got 2 weapons at 1.7-1.8 speed you wouldn't need the extra haste from unholy, the 25% from the frost talents would be enough. That would also proc BCB just as often, except now you can dps in blood presence and do 15% bonus dmg.
Also, can BCB crit? if so, does it count as one of your melee special abilities? because then that means points in dark conviction and annhilation are absolutely necessary.
To be quite honest I hope this spec isn't set in stone for you. If I were a raid leader I, honestly and bluntly, would bench you until you respeced if you tried to pass this off as a serious spec. It's not going to work like you think it will.
Well, I dont really intend to raid much, and the guild I raid with isnt serious enough to ever bench someone based on a spec, especially one that while even if not optimal, isnt going to be that atrocious.
But anyway, I think the mistake I made was not mentioning my rotation. It seems like you assume I am using oblit or something (this is the only reason I can think you say annhilation is mandetory - what good is 3% crit on BS and PS otherwise?) I plan on something along the lines of
IT PS HB BS BS
IT PS HB IT IT
With rime procs used as another IT and PS.
Sounds crazy, but IT does rediculous damage with this spec. In fact, much more alone than oblit would do even glyphed. It the whole basis of the spec really. Tons of IT and HB to replace weapon based skills due to using a one hander. This is why I must go into unholy enough for impurity.
Also as I mentioned, Crypt fever is there for the third personal disease. Unless I am mistaken, BCB and BS are both based on personal diseases still, not others, so this would add a third disease and thus increase both BCB and BS somewhat. The BCB increase is the huge one, although also based on the fact in almost any situation I will be in there will rarely if ever be another DK with Crypt Fever or Ebon Plague. So in most cases its a huge increase for me, as in this build diseases are a significant source of my dps.
As for Guile of the Gorefiend, well, again I am not using Oblit, nor would I ever use Frost strike (as DW DC is ALWAYS better, period). So only one ability that I use every 10 seconds will gain any benefit from this. And while its nice for big numbers, if you work it out the increase from this talent even WITH killing machine is insignificant - And also taking this gets rid of the solid 2% dps increase from Bone armor (which is actually near identical to the GOG increase on this one ability) but also miss out on some impurity - and the pure increas to damage from Impurity on ALL spells is much much more than a moderate increase on just crits of one ability.
The synergies you fail to see is how this build emphasizes spelldamage and how it can replace many strike abilities to negate the loss of damage from using a 1Her. IT + PS (and i buffed PS with outbreak for this reason) is more damage than oblit could even imagine in this build. Those two IT with Death Runes do a ton of damage, especially with that 15% bonus to crit, and when they get killing machine procs even moreso, and also can help proc more Freezing fog for even MORE IT.
Now the only weakness of this build is it basically needs Unholy presence because it is so spammy. From my dummy testing being in unholy was a DPS increase overall, but I still dont know if requiring this stance is a positive. Obviously white dps being a huge aspect of your damage makes it not hurt as much. The haste increases all those stacking things from white damage - BCB procs, necrosis, killing machine ect. But 15% damage loss is still huge.
Oh and the gargoyle gripe? Its silly to think 30 more RP to START is going to make or break your garg staying out. Being in Unholy presence and spamming all this stuff will easily maintain it, and if you worry you can get the IT glyph and you are home free. Those two points for dirge arent worth it for 5 more RP per PS, even if I do use PS more often than not.
I could prolly take out Epidemic due to spamming diseases so much, but I do plan on doing a lot of 5 mans, so that has a huge benfit to AOE.
Oh and finally, I should mention that my build is basically a variation of the tri spec where I simply took all the points from blood (mainly Bladed armor) in favor of Unholy (Desecration + Bone Armor + Crypt Fever)
Last edited by klineshrike : 11/28/08 at 12:43 PM.
The whole point of the spec is to maximize runic power generation for Gargoyle, increase dps while out of melee range, and work well as a duel wielding spec.
Expected rotation would be the following: While in Unholy Presence, assuming IT glyph.
Blood tap to start off.
1/4 Rotation: PS(15.4) -> IT(25.4) -> DC(-39.6) -> IT(25.4) -> X(.4)
2/4 Rotation: PS(15.4) -> IT(25.4) -> DC(-39.6) -> BS(10.4) -> X(.4)
3/4 Rotation: PS(15.4) -> IT(25.4) -> DC(-39.6) -> IT(25.4) -> DC(-39.6)
4/4 Rotation: PS(15.4) -> IT(25.4) -> DC(-39.6) -> BS(10.4) -> X(.4)
X = 1 sec. of free GCD.
Rime procs should be used immediately, replacing a DC or X.
Replace X with a DC whenever above 42rp.
Gain of 36.8rp per rotation, plus 20rp per Rime proc.
62.23% chance of Rime per rotation = Approx. 12.457rp per rotation on average.
Overall 49.26rp gained per rotation = 6 DC per rotation on average, leaving only 2 GCD free for Rime.
9.26rp accumulated per rotation, but 1 GCD per rotation unusable due to lag.
23.14% (every 4th or 5th) of rotations will be capable of a 7th DC, but only if Rime does not occur.
As long as you are below 43 rp at the end of a 1/4 rotation you will not spike above the 130rp cap on a Rime proc.
You will get a maximum of 4 tics from each dot per 20 second rotation due to early refreshes.
The difficult part of this setup will be pausing where that first DC would be in your first 1/4 rotation, but after that it's all rythm and keeping up your gargoyle will be absurdly easy. In fact, you'l be generating so much runic power you'll be able to DC at least once every rotation while still keeping the Gargoyle up indefinately.
The only really debateable talent choices are the two in Unholy Aura and three in Impurity, which can be moved to Bladed Armor.
Edit: As an added perk, while out of melee range you can use Blood Boil to create death runes and IT. While doing so you will genetate just enough runic power to keep your Gargoyle up for the full minute.
Edit 2: Fixed a few errors. Added some additional runic power analysis.
Last edited by Thundershoof : 11/28/08 at 5:14 PM.
Yes, Epidemic would be wasted on this build since diseases are refreshed constantly. I put the points in virulence instead. The first two tiers of Unholy are terrible if you aren't an unholy spec (waste 5 points, ugh). You can always give yourself 5% Dodge for grinding or off-tanking purposes I suppose.
I found a solution to the runic power shortage and the need for Dirge. I should have seen it earlier. Just before you attack the boss (when tank initiates combat), you summon your Ghoul with Glyph of Raise Dead. The 20 runic power it generates should be enough to last long enough for a Rime Proc to solve the runic power shortage in the opening. After that, you should generate enough runic power to maintain your rotations until the end. For some reason, I thought it used an Unholy Rune. It doesn't. Since this is a usual opening move anyway, this works quite well.
When building rotations for this, don't forget lag. You can do 19 abilities in 20 seconds. You can't do 20. Most of the time, you'll be using 8-9 abilities but a hot streak of Rime procs can easily push you to more than this. Just remember that you need to use your runes within 1.5 sec of them coming up or you are wasting DPS.
If you got an extra GCD, remember you can Blood Tap once a minute to generate a touch more DPS and runic power by changing what would be a Blood Strike to an Icy Touch.
As for Runic power decay, I'm not getting it in combat anymore. I apparently found a bug while I was grinding (fun) but it was fixed. You are correct. It's not supposed to decay in combat (grumble).
I'll do some analysis and see if I can improve this further.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
So, after browsing this (and the frost DPS thread), I have started prioritising talents. This is what I got.
Blood:
Subversion, lowers threat and raises OB's crit by 9% I find this an amazing talent.
Frost:
Imp. Icy Talons. I would get it, it would allow the shaman to use a different totem, and thus, more buffs.
Annihilation is a MUST for a DW frost DPS build.
Glacier Rot+Black Ice are just standard +dmg boosters, but that's what a DPS needs, so get these with the spare points.
Killing Machine makes white crits worth it. I would get it because it procs more often then not (50% but it seems like 80%+) guaranteed crits on Howling Blast is soo worth it.
Chill of the Grave I find optional, but should be considered if you need a place holder.
Howling Blast is your #1 damage, if you don't get this you should uninstall WoW right now.
Blood of the North allows for more obliterates or Howling Blasts, I'd get it.
Frost Strike is the other main source of damage, so get it.
Guile of gorefiend is A MUST!
If you are picking anything out of the frost tree it should at least contain: Annihilation, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Guile of Gorefiend, and Killing Machine.
Unholy:
I find that you should spend points in here as well.
Epidemic is amazingly useful for saving runes, Necrosis is a good damage boost.
Bloody-caked blade This is an amazing talent, I would get this ASAP.
I also would get Dirge to help smooth the RP flow and allow for more frost strikes.
I have picked up on a lot of the major talents, and I think that it would survive well. However, I'm no expert or anything, that's why I wish you guys could take a look over my thoughts and point out something I missed, or misjudged. Thanks for taking the time to read this and such. Have a great day everyone!
After some analysis of my Tri-spec rotation, I came up with a better one. First off, apparently leading with Icy Touch is more DPS. Using the ghoul to get 20 RP in the opening also allows an extra frost strike in the opening rotation. This allows for more Icy Touchs to be cast before a Rime proc is needed to get the ninth move in a rotation.
You blood tap and summon your ghoul while your tank is building threat. This starts you with 20 runic power.
IT (25) -> PS (10) -> IT (25) -> IT (25) -> FS (-40) -> BS (10) -> PS (10) -> FS (-40) -> FS (-40) {5 runic remaining}
IT (25) -> PS (10) -> IT (25) -> BS (10) -> FS (-40) -> IT (25) -> PS (10) -> FS (-40) {30 runic remaining)
This gives you six opportunities to proc Rime for an additional Howling Blast. If you do, you'll get the full 9 abilities every ten seconds which is the goal. Maximizing your use of abilities is the key to making this spec work. 10 + 8 works as a little overlap is okay (you have 1.5 sec leeway).
As you can see, a Rime proc will leave you with 50 runic power. This warrants a adjustment in the rotation to make sure you don't overflow runic power (max 110)
IT (25) -> PS (10) -> IT (25) -> FS (-40) -> IT (25) -> BS (10) -> FS (-40) -> PS (10) -> FS (-40) {35 runic left over}
The trick to this is to adjust as you go so you don't overflow on runic power when Rime procs. You get a few seconds so power down with frost strike and fire it off. As you can see, a fixed rotation is impossible as Rime randomly interrupts things adding runic power that you need to dump. This makes it a little more difficult to play correctly.
Because of the randomness in the build, it's really hard to judge this build without a good simulator. A crit streak really changes the numbers because you not only deal double damage with your melee attack but also likely deal double damage on a high damage ability as well (auto-critical from Killing Machine). A hot streak of Rime also really changes things as you not only get the extra damage from the Howling Blast but also enough runic power for half a Frost Strike.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Been reading the topics about the dps specs for the Death Knight and they have been very helpful to give me an insight into rotations and priorities as a Death Knight. After reading about Unholy DPS spec I decided to run some heroics with it and actually got a good dps improvement. I did however find that the ghoul pet really dies fast and considering I don't want to burden the healers more than they already are I was looking for alternatives. I joined a guild that apparently already has an unholy dps DK so I got back here and checked out the dual wield specs.
After reading the posts and trying to filter out the talent specs I decided to go for:
Comments appreciated, but what I was wondering about is what stats to actually focus on now first. With most DK specs hit and expertise are good to make sure the diseases stick and the specials hit. Is this still the case with a dual wield spec ? I assume getting the 9% hit cap for specials is still a prio, but is getting expertise still important or is a focus on haste/crit better in this regard ?
EDIT: Oh and is there already a conclusion on what presence works better with dual wield ?
Been reading the topics about the dps specs for the Death Knight and they have been very helpful to give me an insight into rotations and priorities as a Death Knight. After reading about Unholy DPS spec I decided to run some heroics with it and actually got a good dps improvement. I did however find that the ghoul pet really dies fast and considering I don't want to burden the healers more than they already are I was looking for alternatives. I joined a guild that apparently already has an unholy dps DK so I got back here and checked out the dual wield specs.
After reading the posts and trying to filter out the talent specs I decided to go for:
Comments appreciated, but what I was wondering about is what stats to actually focus on now first. With most DK specs hit and expertise are good to make sure the diseases stick and the specials hit. Is this still the case with a dual wield spec ? I assume getting the 9% hit cap for specials is still a prio, but is getting expertise still important or is a focus on haste/crit better in this regard ?
EDIT: Oh and is there already a conclusion on what presence works better with dual wield ?
As for the presence, people have stated that you should use Unholy (check the Frosty DPS thread[Edit: I ment this thread, my bad I got the two mixed up, search around the bottom of page 2], it talks about it there).
As for your talents. It is very good, but I see it might be hard to upkeep gargoyle without Runic Power Mastery. However you did get Dirge and Chill of the Grave, so you should be fine with that extra runic power, however it will be more tricky. I say it's an overall nice build and should work just fine.
What would be the strongest Glyphs to take if you take a Dual wield build? If I were going Blood of the North I'd imagine the Oblit glyph would be a strong one. The IT one is ofcourse a nice one aswell(although it takes spelldamage away). But I really don't know what to have as a third one, anyone else might have an idea for it?
I've just read the Frosty DPS thread and I can't find anything about Unholy Presence. The first post that lists the basics of frost dps mentions using Blood Presence, because Unholy's global cooldown lowering isn't worth it.
I've just read the Frosty DPS thread and I can't find anything about Unholy Presence. The first post that lists the basics of frost dps mentions using Blood Presence, because Unholy's global cooldown lowering isn't worth it.
Am I missing something here ?
From the Frost DPS thread.
Originally Posted by Nicolai
For Frost DPS, use a two handed weapon. Period. The dual-wielding tri-spec is a different thread.
Xellos, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. This whole thread is about different kind of dual wield specs (not just the tri-spec) and many specs listed include going deep into Frost. Zummy mentioned that I should use the Unholy presence and listed his source (Frost DPS thread), but I couldn't find any post in there that mentioned the Unholy presence.
What I'm trying to say is that the Frost DPS thread is dedicated to 2h Frost and that there shouldn't be any discussion concerning a DW build or using Unholy Presence. I fully realize that this is a generic DW thread. I merely quoted Nicolai's statement, which happens to say tri-spec. Upon searching the Frost thread again, I didn't find anything concerning using unholy aura, leading me to believe that Zummy was mistaken in quoting his source or otherwise.
Anyways, my response was predicated on the assumption that you were searching in a vacuum rather than in response to Zummy. Partially my fault, but quotes would help prevent future confusion.
What I'm trying to say is that the Frost DPS thread is dedicated to 2h Frost and that there shouldn't be any discussion concerning a DW build or using Unholy Presence. I fully realize that this is a generic DW thread. I merely quoted Nicolai's statement, which happens to say tri-spec. Upon searching the Frost thread again, I didn't find anything concerning using unholy aura, leading me to believe that Zummy was mistaken in quoting his source or otherwise.
Anyways, my response was predicated on the assumption that you were searching in a vacuum rather than in response to Zummy. Partially my fault, but quotes would help prevent future confusion.
I apologize, let me search the forums again and try and find where I found the information. It may also be important that it is two handed frost. I haven't seen that myself. However, disregard what I said until I can find further information, sorry for being misinformed.
EDIT: I did some forum browsing, and the post I obtained some of the Unholy/Blood pressence info was in-fact this one. The main question starts half-way down page 2, and it's scattered til the top of page 3. I say it's still debating, but Unholy/Blood seems pretty equal.
Been reading the topics about the dps specs for the Death Knight and they have been very helpful to give me an insight into rotations and priorities as a Death Knight. After reading about Unholy DPS spec I decided to run some heroics with it and actually got a good dps improvement. I did however find that the ghoul pet really dies fast and considering I don't want to burden the healers more than they already are I was looking for alternatives. I joined a guild that apparently already has an unholy dps DK so I got back here and checked out the dual wield specs.
After reading the posts and trying to filter out the talent specs I decided to go for:
Comments appreciated, but what I was wondering about is what stats to actually focus on now first. With most DK specs hit and expertise are good to make sure the diseases stick and the specials hit. Is this still the case with a dual wield spec ? I assume getting the 9% hit cap for specials is still a prio, but is getting expertise still important or is a focus on haste/crit better in this regard ?
EDIT: Oh and is there already a conclusion on what presence works better with dual wield ?
I'm looking at mostly the same setup but I'm thinking about dropping Annihilation and taking Lichborne and 2 points in Runic Power Mastery. Am I totally bonkers or would that work? Also how usefull is Frost Aura when raiding?
I'm looking at mostly the same setup but I'm thinking about dropping Annihilation and taking Lichborne and 2 points in Runic Power Mastery. Am I totally bonkers or would that work? Also how usefull is Frost Aura when raiding?
Frost Aura in raids is situational. Usually another class will bring the resistances, also, I feel Annihilation is a very good talent to have if you're DPS'ing. Lichborne shouldn't help you unless you're tanking, and if you are, why are you posting here? There's a tanking thread that would probably benefit you more. Runic Power Mastery is a nice talent to have, but I'm not sure dropping Annihilation for it is the way to go.
Some comments about a tri-spec from me
this is my armory
. To be honest i'am enjoing this spec. But dps seem to be rather low, while testing on a lvl 80 dummy. In a blood presence i was doing about 1700 dps, in an unholy presence about 1800.
To simplify my calculations i was using a IT - PS - BS - BS - HB - DC rotation. Without using obliterate with rime prock and etc.
Of course always Horn of winter up.
Isn't dps too low ? I was doing that much dps on a level 70 dummy with my enh shammy, not mentioning 2300-2500 dps in a raid...
I really like tri-spec, but it simply feels to be a little too weak. Or am i wrong and this numbers ( 1700-1800 dps on a target dummy) are ok ?
I'm getting ~2200 average DPS against the heroic boss dummy both as 14/31/26 DW and 17/0/54 2h without Ghoul or Buffs/Debuffs each. That's in a mix of Heroic/Naxx10 gear with T7.25 shoulders and Naxx10 Swords/the Naxx25 2h Mace as weapons. The 7 points in Unholy simply give you much more bang for your bucks than 1 point in Blood and 6 in Frost. What I'm still looking at is if it's worth skipping further points in Blood to go deeper into Unholy.
Frost Aura in raids is situational. Usually another class will bring the resistances, also, I feel Annihilation is a very good talent to have if you're DPS'ing. Lichborne shouldn't help you unless you're tanking, and if you are, why are you posting here? There's a tanking thread that would probably benefit you more. Runic Power Mastery is a nice talent to have, but I'm not sure dropping Annihilation for it is the way to go.
No no I'm DPSing so I will try the build as is. Thanks for the input.
Hidden,
I find your build very appealing, but have a few questions. Keep in mind I'm lvl 75 right now, so have a few levels before I max out.
1. What rotation are you using? I recently tried this spec (switched a few abilities around while I level though), and found myself using IT, HB, PS, and BS...with the occasional Deathcoil when it was up.
2. Blood or Unholy presence?
3. When did you switch to duel wielding? It's proving difficult to find weapons in my quest for 80.
11/28/08, 10:39 AM
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