What I was saying is that Frost strike affects our next attack if i am not mistaken. So our offhand would "steal" the frost strike from our mainhand, dealing less damage. If our offhand was as powerful as our mainhand, it would do similar damage. With haste, math would suggest that 50% of 50 is 25, and 50% of 40 is 20, so if these represented weapons, 2 50% x 50 would be 50, and a 50%x50 and 50% of 40 would be 45, increasing overall damage 5.
What I was saying is that Frost strike affects our next attack if i am not mistaken. So our offhand would "steal" the frost strike from our mainhand, dealing less damage. If our offhand was as powerful as our mainhand, it would do similar damage. With haste, math would suggest that 50% of 50 is 25, and 50% of 40 is 20, so if these represented weapons, 2 50% x 50 would be 50, and a 50%x50 and 50% of 40 would be 45, increasing overall damage 5.
Ah. I understand now. It doesn't though - it's an instant attack. Rune strike is next attack, but only works while tanking. Your haste math is unclear - haste of twenty percent means twenty percent more attacks, slow weapon or fast weapon. 20% more attacks means 20% more damage, be the weapon slow or fast. The only serious impact weapon speed has on dual-wielding damage is that the more attacks we have the more likely we are to proc killing machine - hence fast-fast.
Has anyone considered using a rotation similar to the ones 2H frosties are using now? Pop blood tap off the bat and just do the same set over and over.
PS-IT-IT-BS-HB-DC-DC Repeat
You gen 90 RP per rotation with Chill of the grave and IT glyph so you are going to be capped and occasionally see some wastage, and if you ignore Rime procs you can just keep following that specific rotation. Technically the runes cooldown fast enough that you could cut it to 1 DC per rotation before you restart it, letting you drop IT glyph for some more damage and maybe sneak in an extra IT if you get a Rime proc. If it works you could even drop the 2 points from Chill of the grave and still gen 65 RP per rotation, but I can't really suggest a better place to put them.
Has anyone considered using a rotation similar to the ones 2H frosties are using now? Pop blood tap off the bat and just do the same set over and over.
PS-IT-IT-BS-HB-DC-DC Repeat
You gen 90 RP per rotation with Chill of the grave and IT glyph so you are going to be capped and occasionally see some wastage, and if you ignore Rime procs you can just keep following that specific rotation. Technically the runes cooldown fast enough that you could cut it to 1 DC per rotation before you restart it, letting you drop IT glyph for some more damage and maybe sneak in an extra IT if you get a Rime proc. If it works you could even drop the 2 points from Chill of the grave and still gen 65 RP per rotation, but I can't really suggest a better place to put them.
That pretty much is the rotation everyone uses.. everyone that has HB, and uses a rotation anyway. As of next patch, IT glyph doesn't reduce damage, and HB has no cd, so rime procs just replace DCs.
The rotation 2h frosties seem to be leaning towards is nothing like that one, though. Their best rotation right now is IT-BS-Oblit-Oblit-FS-FS-[FS], forgoing plague strike altogether.
Is the main consensus that you wait a few seconds inbetween your IT's for KM to proc? or is it a spam type rotation?
Use a DC between two IT when there's no KM proc? Usually yes.
Wait for a KM proc while having a Frost or Death Rune up? Bad idea.
You don't want to waste either your runes or your RP - in the end it's more important that you do something decent every GCD than what exactly it is. This also means that adjusting to your situation is way better than thinking "I'll just wait until I can start my rotation again".
By the way, the discussions here don't seem to produce anything useful if people keep asking and discussing things that have already been answered multiple times in this thread. (This is not directed to Emi)
Being the 0/31/40 spec I am, I have 2/2 NotD, 2/2 Unholy Aura, 3/3 Crypt Fever, and 3/5 Desecration. I am the only person specced that deep into unholy in my guild who actually raids, so I think unholy aura is useful. However, Blitzseed said I should spec into boneshield for 2% more damage. Which of those talents should I take a point out of to spec into bone shield?
I just got a [Split Greathammer] off of Patchwerk tonight, so I'm feeling good, but it would be nice if someone could find out exactly how much weapon speed matters for DW specs. Specifically, whether the .10 faster speed on [Avool's Sword of Jin] makes it superior to [Split Greathammer] or [Widow's Fury], despite the ilvl 213 weapon's higher stats and damage.
I'm a tank and I was thinking about a respec in DW because of the upcoming change of HB and of the new sigil of defence which changed my mind about the DW spec for tank.
I was reading this thread and looked on your WWS dps sheets.
The situation is now simple: I changed your 32/39 spec and opted for THIS.
I'v 10.7% chance to hit with spell with this spec, raid and 23% dodge+28% parry 3.2k atkpower with HoW (with the sigil of defence the hit/atk power will go up).
Is the spec OK? or desacration and crypt fever was the key to victory?
I didn't pick up boneshield because I dont't like it very much
the only thing that stops me from speccing like this is the lack of CD to keep me up, bladed armor and thoughness
Harion if you want a tanking spec, get a tanking spec. 0/32/39 (or 5/32/34) is not a tanking spec in any way (and the way you've specced is facepalmingly bad). Please, read the thread and spec a proper variation of 0/32/39 if you're doing DW DPS, or go and get a proper tank spec from the tanking thread (or make one yourself).
If you're doing a spec, think through the talents you're taking. Not taking Bone Shield because you "don't like it very much" is not a valid reason at all, especially if you're trying to put together a tanking spec.
Harion if you want a tanking spec, get a tanking spec. 0/32/39 (or 5/32/34) is not a tanking spec in any way (and the way you've specced is facepalmingly bad). Please, read the thread and spec a proper variation of 0/32/39 if you're doing DW DPS, or go and get a proper tank spec from the tanking thread (or make one yourself).
If you're doing a spec, think through the talents you're taking. Not taking Bone Shield because you "don't like it very much" is not a valid reason at all, especially if you're trying to put together a tanking spec.
Is 10% Parry and 5% Dodge BETTER than BONESHIELD? isn't that a VALID REASON to spec like that?
I know I said that i don't like boneshield, because I don't like a 20% reduction dmg for few seconds (i'm speccing watching the changes that are coming in the new patch). 15% avoidance is obviously better than Boneshield.
I want to go for a DW spec that generate threat and DPS at the same time, i was questioning, here, how much could be the DPS loss of a tank-geared DK speccing like that, losing boneshield, desacration and merciless combat.
a) Blade Barrier and Anticipation are not mutually exclusive from Bone Shield.
b) Part of the reason DW is very high DPS is due to the Ghoul and Gargoyle - both of these will be a lot worse while wearing tanking gear, and the damage that they provide does not count towards your threat (part of the reason a 0/32/39 build doesn't have threat problems even without Subversion).
Spending about a minute looking at the talent tree and evaluating what is of benefit and what isn't, this is what I've come up with. You get the full benefit of Anticipation, Bone Shield, Frigid Dreadplate, IITouch, Toughness and 4/5 in Blade Barrier along with Howling Blast and Impurity for damage.
I'm not saying this build is good, but that it's far and away better than yours. Improvements can probably be made - you may want to take Gargoyle in order to provide more damage (although it won't be more threat), you might want to take a point out of blade barrier to gain another point for Crypt Fever so you have 3 diseases. Like I said, think through the merits of each talent instead of just randomly clicking everywhere. You also have to consider the impact that gear has on each spec. By tanking you're giving up a lot of crit (killing machine, which is a major factor in the dual wield DPS builds), and you need the points from other areas in order to get a lot of the good tanking talents (18 points alone go into Blade Barrier, Anticipation, Toughness and Frigid Dreadplate if you get every point).
Although there are good dual wield tanking builds, I'm not sure that this is really a great variant. You could try it though.
a) Blade Barrier and Anticipation are not mutually exclusive from Bone Shield.
b) Part of the reason DW is very high DPS is due to the Ghoul and Gargoyle - both of these will be a lot worse while wearing tanking gear, and the damage that they provide does not count towards your threat (part of the reason a 0/32/39 build doesn't have threat problems even without Subversion).
Spending about a minute looking at the talent tree and evaluating what is of benefit and what isn't, this is what I've come up with. You get the full benefit of Anticipation, Bone Shield, Frigid Dreadplate, IITouch, Toughness and 4/5 in Blade Barrier along with Howling Blast and Impurity for damage.
I'm not saying this build is good, but that it's far and away better than yours. Improvements can probably be made - you may want to take Gargoyle in order to provide more damage (although it won't be more threat), you might want to take a point out of blade barrier to gain another point for Crypt Fever so you have 3 diseases. Like I said, think through the merits of each talent instead of just randomly clicking everywhere. You also have to consider the impact that gear has on each spec. By tanking you're giving up a lot of crit (killing machine, which is a major factor in the dual wield DPS builds), and you need the points from other areas in order to get a lot of the good tanking talents (18 points alone go into Blade Barrier, Anticipation, Toughness and Frigid Dreadplate if you get every point).
Although there are good dual wield tanking builds, I'm not sure that this is really a great variant. You could try it though.
You'r not giving up on Bone Shield yet? :P
And If I say that you could toss up the BS and Magic Suppression talents and you can pickup bladed armor and you get a 800-900 bonus atkpower (with the upcoming change of the armor value gained by frost presence), abandon endless winter and get 2 points in runic power mastery which gives you 20 runic power and takes you to 120, which garantee you 3 deathcoil in the rpdump phase (i know that you don't have tons of rp, but when you tank and you have a paladin prot in raid, your rp gets full tons of time)
So you specifically want to drop Bone Shield (a major mitigation talent), and Magic Suppression (a core anti-magic talent which will give 20%/24% base spell damage reduction, depending on weapon enchant, next patch) in order to get extra AP and some more runic power generation, over "free" interrupts (granted, the points in Endless Winter were floating points anyway), and then you drop +parry enchants for fallen crusader/razorice?
Why don't you look at a more standard build, such as this which is what I'm using on my DK (with dual wield) at the moment. The only time I've ever had threat problems is running with groups which have full 25 man gear whilst I have mixed heroic/10 man gear. This build is based on slow/fast rather than fast/fast though (frost strike and rune strike benefit a lot more from slow/fast than fast/fast). The points in Endless Winter are floating, and you could easily drop those two points plus the point in frost strike for 3 points in Morbidity, Virulence or Epidemic.
Hello I have been doing the DW DPS spec 32/39 for a couple weeks now had what i think was a good night in naxx 25 man. Now im getting to the point where i have more gear then slots and trying to understand what is best for this DW spec.
i guess my question is what should i be focusing on and what can i afford to lose.
one specific gear question i had was i have the meteorite whetstone, the Mirror of Truth and the Emerald Boar Sockeded with X2 27str gems. Which of those 3 trinkets would i benefit the most from.
ATM Im fully gemed all STR is there anything based on my above stats that I would benefit moving points in anouther direction?
I was hoping for some input from the more seasoned dual-wielders. Currently, my guild's other DK runs 0/32/39. I was hoping to try DW, since it seems to be pulling ahead, but I realize I cannot also go 0/32/39 without gimping one of us. So the way I see it, I have two options: go deeper into unholy and get ebon plague (not even sure what this build would look like) or go something like 0/50/21 or 0/44/27. I realize that I lose a good deal from either, but I was wondering what my options were, or if I'm better off just staying 17/0/54 with my 2H setup.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I was hoping for some input from the more seasoned dual-wielders. Currently, my guild's other DK runs 0/32/39. I was hoping to try DW, since it seems to be pulling ahead, but I realize I cannot also go 0/32/39 without gimping one of us. So the way I see it, I have two options: go deeper into unholy and get ebon plague (not even sure what this build would look like) or go something like 0/50/21 or 0/44/27. I realize that I lose a good deal from either, but I was wondering what my options were, or if I'm better off just staying 17/0/54 with my 2H setup.
20/51 is quite competitive at dual-wielding, especially in the less rotational fights (it fits a priority system better than 32/39, at least until the patch). You'll have to be willing to not use unholy runes occasionally though. Search for gothya in this thread to find a WWS with that spec a few hundred posts back. It'll take quite a boost with the patch too, since the IT glyph will become useable and UB will be cheap enough to bother with.
I'm still a bit confused on how people claim to be pulling some of the numbers I'm seeing in here. Using recount on the raid boss dummy in ebon blade keep, I consistently get higher DPS as 2h Blood or 2h Unholy than I do with any DW build... and that's including waiting for Mirror procs and everything else before summoning the gargoyle.
I mean there's a few seconds in fights (as DW) where my DPS spikes up around 3k, but over a 3 minute period it averages out to 2200-2300... 2 hand spec it averages out to 2.5k
What hit/crit/ap do people claiming to pull 3k+ on the raid boss dummy in ebon keep have?
Too bad the setup that people use on the PTR isn't always reflected in their Live armory profile, eh?
None of the numbers you see regarding DW here should have anything to do with the PTR, because Killing Machine is currently broken and does nothing in the PTR build. Without it DW DPS is much lower and it's not worth testing until they get it fixed.
None of the numbers you see regarding DW here should have anything to do with the PTR, because Killing Machine is currently broken and does nothing in the PTR build. Without it DW DPS is much lower and it's not worth testing until they get it fixed.
I've noticed =\ I've heard rumors that the patch is coming out Tuesday as well...
So are you claiming most of the people claiming to be pulling 3-4k+ dps regularly on boss fights are in fact raid buffed? Because that'd make a lot more sense than what I've been seeing.
I've noticed =\ I've heard rumors that the patch is coming out Tuesday as well...
So are you claiming most of the people claiming to be pulling 3-4k+ dps regularly on boss fights are in fact raid buffed? Because that'd make a lot more sense than what I've been seeing.
I think you'd have to really look at the individual posts, they don't seem that vague to me.
I do about 3k DPS on the nemesis dummies self-buffed with Horn of Winter over 5+ minute tests. If the dummy is under 35% then it's around 3.2k. Raid-buffed boss fights are significantly higher but swing based on fight mechanics; I'm not pulling the kind of numbers some of these guys have posted (I've only taken 32/39 into one raid so far) but my first PW run was 5.5k.
01/01/09, 11:47 PM
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