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@asari

Being close to 3k dps on boss dummy in ebon hold [I'm pulling 2.7k-2.8k with 0/32/39 spec 5min test]. I would say you will need about...

3.3k AP
1250+ str.
250+ haste
23%+ crit
275-325 hit

 

Hyperaktiv

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: wowscrnshot010209164955yl0.jpg

Spiked at 3700dps after about one rotation (or if it was two) into gargoyle uptime. I had 2xBF+trinket+garg. up and started the session with channeling AotD. Don't mind the graph, just needed some proof of elapsed time, as for this case it was five minutes.

Rotation used:
AotD > PS > IT (ps+it if rime proc) > HB > BSx2 > RPD
PS > IT (ps+it if rime proc) HB > IT (ps+it if rime proc) > IT > RPD
-Repeat.

Edit: typos

 

Aiva

wow, sick numbers guys.. we are done with raiding for this week so i thought i should give a shot to DW.. pretty impressive i must say. Having troubles with keeping up with the rotations tho, RP at the end of cycles = lots of wasted RP with IT glyph, and to squeeze in some death coils in between = messy rotation. Things get even more complicated if i try to prio HB for KM procs.

But one thing is for sure, i am nowhere near 3k on dummy with ghoul+how+shield. I am kinda stuck at 2.6k.

Rotation: IT > PS > BS > BS > HB > DUMP
IT > PS > IT > IT > HB > DUMP

sitting at 3k AP, %25crit, 340hit and 17 expertise.

a random note :
1. Dirge allows 2 DC at the end of first cycle toget with IT glyph. Still silly to put points into that just to cast 2 DC at the very first cycle tho.

 

finalheavenx

32/39 here and I'm in a pickle, I used to run the standard unholy and tired of it rather quickly ( never been into dot's much ) I'm pretty convinced of the fast/fast concept for KM procs but I'm currently hurting for a main hand. I've been using Fang of truth as my main hand and Grass Cutter as my off hand.

I've searched the Auction house for days and scowered trade for Avool's to no avail. Would it be a DPS increase to use TitanSteel Bonecrusher even with the higher weapon speed until I can get onto a server with similar raiding times or should I just save my cash.

To contribute something now lol

out of shear desperation for a mainhand I tested Battleworn Thrash Blade seeing it around the same DPS as the fang and figuring the proc might make up for it.

Although I only tested this for a few hours it would seem the "Extra attack" cannot proc BCB, and It's rather hard to see with combot log lag but seems like it may be able to proc KM as I've seen back to back KM procs. But that could just be an offhand swing.

Overall though I lost about an average of 200DPS using it :/

 

Bunhead

No offense but I have to question how thorough your testing was. Heirloom weapons cannot be Runeforged. A GM is in the process of refunding my Shards for this exact reason and weapon. I too thought it would be a good idea... They said "working as intended". Aparently Runeforging is lvl 35+ weapons only, though I'm just guessing. Heirlooms are classed as lvl 1 items.

 

finalheavenx

yeah I was quiet surprised at the fact you couldn't runeforge it either. And my testing wasn't very thorough at all, I wasn't trying to test every aspect of the blade only to see if it could proc KM/BCB and I wouldn't consider a few hours of messing around with it a complete or valid test in anyway, atleast not in the same fashion some people on this forum can dissect an items value.

 

gerrylix

Sry but i dont think that 0/21/50 makes sense pre patch 3.0.8.
0/32/39 or 0/44/27 are the builds used from the most DW dks.
Hopefully i didnt missunderstand your answer for zurm but in his case i would take a build wich fits already for the next patch. Keep in mind that this builds arent that strong without HB atm.

And after patch
this

will become very interesting.

There are a few differences wich gives the build a little boost.
1. 2 Points from Icy Reach into Icy Talons. 8% haste > range of IT/HB/CoI
2. 3 Points Outbrake shifted to Desecration. A few ppl will say desecration isnt worth the points but ask yourself "Is outbreak worth it?"
3. I shifted the 2 points from UA into desecration in cases where you already got an Unholy DK in your raid or where you think it isnt ideal for "you". (Pls dont discuss now the usefullness of UA here)

But whatever we do with this build there is only a small list of skills where we "really" can make changes.

And i want to ask you wich priority has each of the listed skills for you, in this or similar build/s as DW and for the next upcoming patch with some short expl. and maybe some numbers.

a, Epidemic 1-2 Points
We do replace Deseases to often as to skill epidemic.

b, Virulence 1-3 Points
We have seen in earlier posts that it´s not the best to go after 8% meleehit this will fit fine for IT/DC....

c, Corpse Exp.
After the buff maybe its worth the points, but what i see in raidpractice trash is to fast down to give up one point for it.

d, Dirge 1-2
2,5-5 RP only from PS. We won´t use OB, SS or DS. So the RP gain from 2 Skillpoints isnt really that impressive.

e, Desecration 3-5
60% to 100% doing 5% more dmg after PS gives us the most out of that 3-5 points compared to Dirge, CE, Outbreak or Epidemic.

f,Outbreak 1-3
Ok 15% - 45% dmg on PS and BB. There are only 2 things to keep in mind.
First: PS does no dmg and adding 45% to such low amounts is just funny.
Second: I really, really never come to the part where thrash grps are living long enough to hit BB after adding deseases.^^

A sidenote : Pls explain your decissions a bit more, then just "This is my build and i do X DPS on PW".
So its 6 am here in austria and i do need a bed.^^

 

draxar

The idea behind outbreak is with a Fast/Fast combo, a 3x disease BB with outbreak replaces BS as it's not weapon damage based. However I'm yet to crunch the numbers for myself. Also, your build doesn't include Unholy Aura which is a very worthwhile talent. Of course, it's not required if there's another DK providing it.

Descecration is still a 50/50 talent imo. On target dummies it's great, but when raiding I never found it to be a flat 5% increase even when maxxed 5/5 simply due to many encounters requiring movement and I've always had epedemic meaning i didn't need to PS as often.

Epedemic - As you said, not required as diseases are kept up regularly, tho I've always taken it.

Virulence - If your spell hit capped then it's not needed, otherwise it's required.

Corpse Explosion - Is fun on trash, but worthless on Boss encounters.

 

salviastria

Gerrylix,

While your reasoning on the point-by-point analysis is decent, my main issue with that spec is...what does the priority/rotation look like? Am I a dunce or is there no FU ability spec'd besides OB which is useless (or near useless) for DW?

Also, I disagree vehemently that 8% haste > extra range. If you don't have a windfury or a dk windfury in your raid, then your raid fails for not getting it from somewhere else or *YOU* fail for not getting it. Its either all the way or none of the way (except for the first three points obviously). Range > haste you're getting from somewhere else.

Below I have assembled 3+ builds that I think are worth considering, I will do my best to lay out my reasoning but it is pretty long, so I apologize for the Wall. Below is the standard 32/39 albeit tweaked a little bit.


Post-Patch DW Build

Some changeable things include 5/5 desecration instead of 3/5 if you already have UA in your raid, switching around more points into virulence if you are under hit cap, etc. One huge thing though is the necessary inclusion of Epidemic. I'm 95% sure its been mentioned already, but with no CD on HB we're no longer stuck with an extra set of FU in the rotation with which to IT/PS for 100% uptime. Currently even with 3/5 desecration I run almost 100% uptime with desecration due to me not having anything better to do with my runes.

This leads into another question...if we are taking epidemic that means we are cutting the uptime on Desecration substancially. This would cause some people to drop it, but when I go back and look at the talent options further up in Unholy, there isn't anything (that I can see) that would increase dps equivalently even with the decreased uptime. For instance, you can go with max virulence, but with good gear you're gonna be close to if not over cap with 1/3.

You could go with outbreak, or CE, but both are pretty piss-poor options for me when my build is based around doing max boss dps. You could also opt for more utility with reduced cd on death grip for Malygos...

Or you could go the route of dropping post-Master of Ghoul unholy altogether and go for some in blood like this...

9/32/30 DW build

Gains include....

Butchery passive RP gen (though currently, without IT glyph I almost never have problems with RP)
Threat reduction (though currently, 32/39 doesn't have much problem with threat considering its split between pets)
4/5 Bladed Armor AP (Obviously the only reason we're going into blood, nice chunk of AP there, though considering blizzard has stated that they have stopped adding extra armor in their itemization, there doesn't appear to be much scaling potential)

Losses include...

3/5 Desecration + UA, or 5/5 Desecration
Night of the Dead for amazing AE reduction and in the case your ghoul does drop, can probably get him up pretty quick
Bone shield
1/3 Crypt Fever

Seems on paper that the blood points are pretty awful in comparison to the utility you lose. The new NOTD is particularly impressive considering that one of the potential failing points of 32/39 is pet death. Does anyone know if NOTD affects the garg too?

Dropping desecration and the later points in unholy got me thinking about picking up GoG for the crit bonus and this is the build I came up with....

0/44/27 DW Build

I'm really liking standard 32/39 currently, but its very constrictive in terms of talent choices. There isn't space for Lichborne, for RPM, etc because other choices just jump out as being better in DPS. However, if you are 'forced' to spend more points in order to get to GoG, you quickly run out of pure DPS upgrades and are forced into taking utility talents, or at least talents that are dual-purpose.

For instance, in the spec above I took Lichborne and 2/2 Frost Aura, however you can easily drop those points into Annihilation for a more 'pure' dps gain. Or you can go 3 RPM, or 2 RPM Lichborne, etc etc. For ezmode naxx Patch dps stacking, im pretty certain Annihilation is superior, but I'm fairly confident that come Ulduar we'll be facing more difficult fights where survivability self-sustainability will be more important than 3% melee crit in a predominantly spell-based spec. I'm confident that with Death's Embrace minor glyph, Morbidity, and Lichborne at my disposal I could heal myself farily well in an emergency. Also, a retroactive fear break is very, very nice.

Furthermore, you could make a simple blood tap/unbreakable armor/use trinket macro for a nice dps gain to pop along with a Mirror/Greatness/FC proc for a super garg. This is also obviously a nice pinch-hit tanking talent.

Being 44 deep in Frost also puts Frost Strike within reach, which brings up the question (sorry if its been asked already) of whether or not FS > DC given a slow/fast setup. My initial thought is that FS is not a spell (right?) and is therefor not affected by Impurity, and we're already speccing morbidity, so it probably wont be worth it, but I'll wait to see what happens when some testing gets done.

Additionally, assuming a no CD HB, wouldn't we have enough GCDs to (sometimes) dump 3x DC? If so, then that means 2/3 RPM is on the table as a dps increase, right?

I know this is a huge post, but I have one final question that I haven't been able to answer with the search tool:

Which is better in the offhand for *personal* dps, Razorice or Cinderglacier? I frankly dont care about the mages in our raids as we barely bring any, and as I said im not a math whiz so I was wondering if anyone had any theories about that.

 

Janraea

Sorry, but you're wrong. 20/51 is in the same dps range as 32/39, both in WWSs (search for gothya, he's the one that showcased that build), and in spreadsheets (and this is on live).

> Pls explain your decissions a bit more, then just "This is my build and i do X DPS on PW".

I would, but I've already gone into some bit of depth on the topic in this thread. Have you been reading it? It looks like the WWS I was referring to expired, but here's some relevant posts:
http://elitistjerks.com/1022632-post368.html
http://elitistjerks.com/1025413-post448.html
Dual Wield Builds
The rest of the discussion is rather spread out.

Now, are your extensive claims about the nature of DK dps based on some kind of evidence? Or are you just going by hearsay? I base my claims on a fairly large modified spreadsheet that I'd be happy to email you on tuesday (when I'm next at work). Since the WWS was apparently impressive enough to spark some discussion, could you take my word for it that 20/51 does work? It's a little behind 32/39, but only a little, and he was clearly asking if it was reasonable to take a dw build deep enough to get EP.

Now, there were a few things in your wall of text I wanted to mention:
>1. 2 Points from Icy Reach into Icy Talons. 8% haste > range of IT/HB/CoI

That's only 8% haste if you have no enhancement shamans or Frost DKs in your raid.

>2. 3 Points Outbrake shifted to Desecration. A few ppl will say desecration isnt worth the points but ask yourself "Is outbreak worth it?" 3. I shifted the 2 points from UA into desecration in cases where you already got an Unholy DK in your raid or where you think it isnt ideal for "you". (Pls dont discuss now the usefullness of UA here)

Honestly, the desecration points are all at-will. That one's still up in the air - I don't like desecration, but by all means, take the points from outbreak if you want it. I rarely talk about builds intending for every point to be just as I place it, that leads to endless discussions in which all of the posts are a page long and about minutia. Like this one.

I don't need to discuss the usefulness of UA, it's well understood.

>b, Virulence 1-3 Points: We have seen in earlier posts that it´s not the best to go after 8% meleehit this will fit fine for IT/DC....

I guess you haven't been reading the same posts as me. This build takes 25% of its damage from IT, and another 7-8% from DC. 3% more hit on those is good dps. It could be that you're agreeing with me here, your grammar is a bit confusing.


And from Salviastria:

>which brings up the question (sorry if its been asked already) of whether or not FS > DC given a slow/fast setup.

It's been asked and answered several times. With good gear, it does not, assuming you have impurity. More importantly, it steals KM procs from HB and IT, both of which hit harder as a DW DK.

>Which is better in the offhand for *personal* dps, Razorice or Cinderglacier? I frankly dont care about the mages in our raids as we barely bring any, and as I said im not a math whiz so I was wondering if anyone had any theories about that.

Cinderglacier is better if your own dps is the only relevant number.

 

Sacerdos

This is a very interesting idea. If you used Blood Boil instead of Blood Strike, then the only melee strike you will be using is Plague Strike. This means almost every single one of your GCDs will be used on spells, which your haste will affect, giving you a lot more leeway with your rotation with enough haste - freeing up time for Rime procs and more Death Coils.

With a 1.6 speed weapon, unbuffed and on an unsundered target my Blood Strike hits are about 530, my untalented Blood Boils about 350, so talented about 465, and with CoE/Ebon up ~510, so its very comparable to Blood Strike, however due to Agility not affecting spell crit, Blood Strike has a much higher crit rate (~10 higher for me). It stands to see whether the slightly lower damage on Blood Boil and the lower crit rate can be made up by its GCD being affected by haste.

Edit: I don't have significant amounts of haste on my gear to test a heavy haste Blood Boil rotation vs a Blood Strike rotation.

Edit 3: Something to consider - if you're using Cinderglacier in your off-hand, Blood Boil would waste procs. So I would only try this with Razor Ice on OH.

 

Janraea

I haven't seen confirmation of this yet. It would be very nice, since I'm building a dk combat simulator - has anyone actually tested this properly, or know a link to someone who has? It's a very significant question, and it affects the dps of geared DW builds by hundreds of dps easily.

 

Asune

I've seen bloodboil crit plenty of times before.

Keep in mind that BB also gets a benefit from the mage 10% spell crit buff, so that will make up for some of the difference in crit chance.

 

Sacerdos

Yeah it can, I just got very bad luck with it. You're right about the crit buff too.

 

Broseph

@ Draxar, just so we're clear, a "3x disease BB" hits just as hard as a "1x disease BB". It does NOT do more damage per disease.

@ Sacerdos, unbuffed, unsundered numbers aren't worth much here. It's all about how these abilities scale. Let's do some easy napkin math. Assuming a Hailstorm (235 average weapon damage), outbreak, impurity, three diseases, and ebon plaguebringer (note: other damage bonuses from talents/presence affect both spells equally)

The base damage of Blood Strike (before AP) is

0.5*235 + 191 + 3*95.5 = 595

Blood Strike damage gained per AP is

(1/14)*2.4*0.5 = 0.086

Blood Boil base damage (before AP) is

130*1.13*1.45 = 213

Blood Boil damage gained per AP is

0.04*1.25*1.45*1.13 = 0.082

So Blood Strike starts with a higher base damage and gains more per AP than Blood Boil. Yes, Blood Strike is affected by armor... but the difference in base damage is about four hundred. Blood Boil has a lot of catching up to do, and on a properly sundered mob they will scale about the same per AP.

What's more, given that the glyph of Blood Strike works off of Frostfire Bolt (and is again compelling for DW), Blood Strike can gain yet another 20% buff. In other words, in a raid situation, I doubt very highly that Blood Boil could pump out DPS competitive with Blood Strike.

That said, Blood Boil and Outbreak are the clear choice for 2+ mobs or for the "ranged DPS" spec that's circulating the boards.

Edit: More numbers.

To provide a concrete (and by now famous) example, consider Ren's WWS:

Wow Web Stats

His Blood Strike hits average 947. In order for your Blood Boils to average that high (on hits), you would have to *average* (947-213)/0.082 = 8951 AP. I might not be as experienced with the raid game as most on these boards, but 9k AP seems a little high.

Edit again: Janrea makes an excellent point below me :-)

 

Jazzdruid

I didn't think that this stacked with Windfury totem or Imp Icy Talons.

 

Janraea

True enough, but the most important question remains whether the gcd is affected by haste. Blood Strike is basically a wasted gcd, the numbers are so low compared to our spells - we really just want the death rune. If blood boil does less damage but takes less time to cast, then whether it's a good switch depends on how much damage is lost relative to how much time is lost. I'd certainly take it if did half as much damage and only had 1.0 seconds of gcd - .5 seconds of my average yellow dps is higher than half a blood strike. I'd probably even take it if it did ZERO damage and had a 1.0 gcd.

Where the dividing line is, assuming that the gcd is affected, depends on my yellow dps, the difference in damage between the two, and the amount of time shaved off the gcd.

 

gerrylix

So hi again,

first of all
My bad, i forgot that icy talons doesnt stack with WF or IIT.

I only wanted to say that virulenz its worth every point instead of skipping it and getting 3% more hit on gear. So yes, im agreeing with you.
I really have to read that part again. I thought its only compareable with 32/39 with the upcoming changes in the next patch.

So far, ill do my best for better english grammar next time.

 

Hyperaktiv

That's exactly what I was after earlier with my post at page 27:

In addition, you may even want to continue in blood pres. post patch and keep the additional 15% damge.

The way I see it, he's more pointing out the importance of having as much abilities as possible,affected by GCD reduction.

To get something out of all this, how much haste are we now talking about to make all this work, if it's even possible.

 

Ommar

Has anyone done the math regarding using another icy touch instead of howling blast after the new patch (thus new icy touch sigil ) is released?

I am guessing our next debate wil be weather to go for 00/31/9+1 (Replacing HB after using sigil if IT out-damages HB) VS 00/44/27 GoG build (HB cd removed resulting in using it 4 times in a rotation)

 

Herb

This has already been answered by grayrest. To reiterate: Without a viable U/F-dump, 0/20/51 is forced into using single-rune abilities, and therefore has 12 out of 13 GCDs per cycle covered. With 4xPS, 2xBB, and 6xIT you'd look at 180 RP/cycle, or 4 DCs/cycle - fitting those in would need a spell GCD lowered to 1.17 seconds, or roughly 19% haste (almost 600 haste rating) after raid buffs. A more viable approach is to simply replace 2xPS by 2xDC, at which point no haste at all is needed.


And now for something completely different...

I've done a couple of tests regarding Rune enchants, with the following results:

• Cinderglacier - 5% (fixed-percentage proc)
• Fallen Crusader - slightly above 1 PPM (e.g. 5% for a 3.0 speed weapon)
• Razorice - 2% weapon damage are "base weapon damage" (before AP contribution)

All enchants can be procced by BCS, which therefore increases proc rates by 30% for 2H, and up to 60% for DW (fast/fast, not including the 19% miss rate). Contrary to Proc Mechanics, Unholy Presence does indeed seem to increase FC proc rates; as of now, however, this should be treated as "mostly anecdotal", since the low proc rates need a metric ton of testing (the "slightly above 1 PPM" above is due to about 12 hours of bashing various dummies).

Razorice's damage is miniscule (e.g. for a 1.5 speed, 150 dps weapon it'd be 1.5 x 150 x 2% = 4.5 damage/strike), cannot crit, and is affected by Razorice and other spell damage buffs, including its own proc. It's essentially a 5% frost damage buff for boss fights.

[edit]
IT = ((236 + 10% AP x 125%) x 110% x 130% + 203) x 130% = 702 + 23.2% AP

HB = (270 + 10% AP x 125%) x 110% x 130% x 200% = 772 + 35.8% AP

Clearly, HB > IT. However, Death Runes are best used for IT instead of HB (since IT + IT > HB), unless you need to fit in another RP dump (since HB + DC > IT + IT).

Maniq: Herb is awesome.

 

shed

It's been stated previously that haste affecting GCD applies only to certain classes (casters) and that DKs didn't benefit from it. I don't think you can have only certain spells affect the GCD. Does anyone have a way to test this out?

 

salviastria

Previously stated where? Here? Blue post?

I'm not at my gaming computer right this second, so I can't confirm this, but I'm pretty sure that if you go into your Spell subsection of your char sheet there's a Haste section...

I see no logical reason as to why DK abilities shouldn't benefit from Haste GCD reduction seeing as there are other hybrids that have melee strikes whose spells are affected by haste (Pallies, Shaman, etc).

That being said, a confirmation would be nice, is there a mod out there that monitors your GCDs to see how long they are? If so, could just see how long it takes you to do a strictly spell based rotation without any of your haste gear, then put on the haste gear and run a second test.

 

Janraea

Gothya's approach (using a priority system) amounts to the latter, since PS has the lowest priority when blood plague is already up (except when gargoyle is out).

 

shed

It wasn't a blue, it was from a few DK EJ threads. This is pretty much a mele issue and I don't believe haste effects mele classes with their instant abilities. Anyways, confirmation of this would be good.