Souli

Hi first time poster here,

I played only 2H specs in PvE so far and tried DW this Naxx reset and the damage is amazing. Using 32/39 atm with Titansteel Bonecrusher / Hatestrike with FC/RI.
I have a few questions regarding the weapons I should watch out for:
1.) F/F is considered the standard atm of what I read but today Angry Dread dropped and I wanted to know if I should go for it though it is pretty slow?
The best wpn combo should be 2x Hailstorm or not? In regards to the upcoming patch would be Angry Dread better for a deep frost build with FS? Or will 32/39 still be the better spec (any infos about that)?
What weapon upgrades would you suggest for me to replace my combo atm? Hailstorm is pretty abvious but what else than that.

 

Macar

I just got [Silent Crusader] to use as main hand. I know I am supposed to use fast/fast, but considering I had [Fang of Truth] before I considered it an upgrade (at least until I can get a decent fast main hand), it was going to go to a hunter if I had not taken it. Did I do a mistake?

http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/1/...11159sMIJL.png

 

Althir

Since Howling Blast is losing it's cooldown, we need to take another look at DW rotations (at least, for those people using a build deep enough in frost to have HB).

No math here, just a little thought experiment and conjecture, which I'm pretty sure is right on.

Here are some options:

The current rotation:
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> HB -> (RP) -> PS -> IT x3 -> HB (RP)

Take Epidemic and:
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> HB -> (RP) -> HB -> IT -> IT -> HB -> (RP)

Start the fight with 1 death rune:
HB -> HB -> IT -> BS -> (RP) -> HB -> HB -> BS -> IT -> (RP)

Comparing the 3 rotations and ignoring the things they have in common, we have:

1 PS, 1 IT, 1 HB
vs.
2 PS, 2 IT
vs.
2 HB (and a slight loss on BS due to 1 disease)

The first option seems no good, because PS + IT is either better than HB or it isn't. One extreme should be better than the mixing of the two. We know HB is better than PS + IT, otherwise HB wouldn't be involved in the original rotation at all. We can't really make this jump, though, because the option involving HB x2 also loses damage from it's Blood Strike to the tune of 1 disease worth of bonus damage. This isn't a huge amount, but it is a non-zero amount.
So now we're weighing:

1 PS, 1 IT, 2 (bonus damage from 1 disease on Blood Strike)
vs.
1 HB

This doesn't seem much contest either. HB does more damage.

So, how do you all feel about the rotation (starting with BDFFUU)
HB -> HB -> BS -> IT -> (RP) -> HB -> HB -> IT -> BS -> (RP)

And, if this rotation is superior by exploiting HB fully, does this make a deep frost (0/50/21 or 0/44/27) build superior due to GoG?

 

Totemologist

This thread and the community building it are certainly ever increasing my re-spec fees. I just wanted to throw in some confirmation regarding the mechanics and gear selections for a 32/39 spec. I have spent about 2 hours testing everything with Slow/Fast and Fast/Fast setups on target dummies. I see a sharp drop in the S/F setup when I start to take away crit gear. Even with my best crit gear on, S/F falls about 400 DPS behind a F/F setup for me. I think we may see a point (with enough crit) that S/F can keep KM up steady and lend more DPS from BCB procs and the random plauge/blood strikes.

I guess what I am getting at is F/F seems to be the most forgiving for gear (especially crit gear) in keeping KM up. I have seen a few far better geared DKs than myself favoring a S/F setup in a similar spec and not seeing big decreases in KM uptime. To me, crit seems to be the factor that can get you successfully into a S/F setup. I look forward to being able to stack more of it as I continue to gear.

With all of that said, I am sold on Dual Wield. I used to poke a bit of fun at the few DW DKs I have seen, but with the help on this thread I have seen roughly 30%-60% increase across all boss fights from leaving 2H Unholy behind. Instead of a consistent top 3-5 I am almost always top in every run.

We did a half - pug Sarth (0 Drakes - WWS ) and I am amazed at the results in very humble gear. If you are a DK thinking of making the switch over but don't think you have the gear, think again because it is possible with very little.

Thank you all for the hard work on this thread, I am hoping to see some solid stat weights soon (please link if they are concrete).

 

Ravenoft

im all for doing double HB in second rotation but starting with 2 HB in the begining with no frost fever is just as good as doing one since frost fever double's dmg unless im missing something. Ideally you never want to waste HB by doing it with no frost fever was i though the general rule of thumb.

i do agree that i would like to see some new thorycraft rotation based on new changes for deep frost builds.

 

kurokaze

The whole 'slow mainhand versus low DPS fast mainhand' thing keeps getting thrown around, and it's really pretty unsatisfying that we haven't really come up with a way to determine the answer.

Fortunately, my vast spreadsheet that includes custom rotations and accurate killing machine modeling among many other things is nearing completion. Once we have a tool designed with DW in mind and designed to answer questions such as 'Which rotation is better' rather than just 'what gear is better if I use this predefined rotation', the problems should vanish.

Unfortunately, there are some severe problems that may be beyond my ability to fix. The calculation involved in my detailed modeling of procs such as KM, FC, Razorice, and Mirror of Truth takes FOREVER. It took several hours to calculate talent point contribution percentages for one spec/gearset.

If anyone is interested in helping me out with this problem and knows generally what they're doing regarding code optimization specifically with oo.o basic (or can convert this to something faster) please drop me a PM.

(Yes, I'm aware that Excel is considerably faster, but I'm not interested in a tool that would require myself and others to either download stuff illegally or shell out big bucks. If the solution ends up being to have someone maintain an excel port, so be it, but I'm sure my amateur coding can be cleaned up considerably without resorting to that.)

</shameless plug>

 

Ish

One of the reasons 32/39 is pulling ahead is that its main attacks are double dipping from both the caster and the physical raidbuffs.

The spec is most likely going to be balanced in the near future and this seems like a potential candidate

 

Marloc

Yeah, I actually noticed something along those lines too Syphilus, however the GCD inbetween may be troublesome, check out my gear if its updated I have completely all of it for Haste, my GCD is down to 1.35 and I need 1 badge for the ring of invincibility + Ill pick up the next sabatons of reprisal for even more haste, it should drop me down to 1.3sec GCD, its just even more of an IT mash - but I guess one could chill a bit for a tick and then pump the IT off, faster GCDs still give you the opportunity to wait a bit and wait for a better icy, but one should sit there with 1 frost and 2 death waiting for a tick though :o

EDIT:
However, I just wanted to point out that GC did mention they won't let DW dominate, they want it to be an option for death knights, but 2handers shouldn't end up getting shafted, but they are fine with all the other classes being dominant with DW.

 

Foxx2405

Fast / Fast is definitely better than Slow/Fast. I myself am still using Slow/Fast as well since fast 1H seem to elude me everywhere I go.
However when you can definitely switch to a fast main hand.

2x Hailstorm is indeed the best setup at the moment.


Personally i wouldn't roll on a slow main hand, since its simply less DPS than a fast one. I'm not sure how your guild works, but mine would say that the next fast one that drops might go to that hunter you won of.

Whether the weapon is a dps upgrade is hard to say. Personally I'd say play around with it on boss dummies.

I already posted that rotation a few posts back.

On trash and on boss fights that involve "disengage time" I wouldn't use it. With disengage time i mean, situations where you have to restart the rotation. Think grobbulus when you get the poison, anub'rekan's AoE, Sapphiron phase 2, Sartharion Lava walls, Malygos' Vortex. Pretty much 80% of the boss.

Because if you have to restart the rotation you're losing a lot of dps on the first cycle (HB>HB>BS>IT without Frost Fever up)

However on tank and spank fights like Patchwerk, I'm guessing that is the best rotation. The first part is weaker than on the other rotations, but if you can stick to the boss thats just a small something in the bigger picture.

That rotation should also scale better with gear, since the bonus on BS is static, PS scales badly with DW and HB scales better than IT too.

You miss the point that, that only goes for the first 10 seconds of the entire fight, and after that you have a much smoother rotation.
4/4 rotations allow much more room for RP dumps especially if you use blood presence.

Actually this is something a lot of people have confused.

A fast main hand actually increases BCB dps.

Reason being that BCB is normalized. That means that the difference between slow and fast main hand weapons are very small (base weapon damage only), whereas the faster weapon still has the higher proc rate. And thus higher BCB dps.

The only advantage a slow main hander should give is higher strike damage, but the only strikes we do are PS and BS.

 

Broseph

@ Foxx re: fast mainhand increasing BCB dps due to BCB being normalized.

This is not strictly true because the number of BCB procs your offhand will cause, which are based on normalized mainhand damage, is constant. So while switching to a fast mainhand causes mainhand proc damage to increase due to normalization, it causes the contribution from offhand procs to decrease from lower total damage per proc.

At best, I think we can say the damage from BCB is "about the same" in both F/F and S/F setups due entirely to the wonky effects of normalization.

 

Broseph

ALL DW builds "double dip" from caster and melee buffs, if I understand your comment correctly. Anything that increases magic damage dealt, frost/shadow damage, AP, crit, etc. affects our main attacks. But this is true for 2H unholy (scourge strike) and frost specs (frost strike) too. I fail to see your point.

The only difference is DW specs try to distance themselves from strikes and focus more on spells... Did you mean something else, because I really don't see how 32/39's use of magic damage is any different from most other DK specs, let alone the other DW specs.

 

Totemologist

Hey Foxx,

Here is a glimpse of how I understand BCB to work (simular to sword spec). Where all attacks reflect as a calculation of the Main Hands damage range. I am using simple numbers on the speeds and damage ranges to illustrate concept more than raw game data.

Formula: Procs x (Weapon Damage x .25) = (This factors out disease contribution, as that is simular regardless).

Model 1 (F/F):

MH: 1.0 Speed
OH: 1.0 Speed
Average MH Damage: 500
Time: 100 seconds
Attacks: 200
Procs: 60
Result: 60 x (500 x .25) = 7500 Damage from BCB

Model 2 (S/F):

MH: 2.0 Speed
OH: 1.0 Speed
Average MH Damage: 1000
Time: 100 seconds
Attacks: 150
Procs: 45
Result: 45 x (1000 x .25) = 11,250 Damage from BCB

If there is a flaw in the way I am understanding how BCB works, please point it out. I am under the assumption that all procs benefit from the main hands damage range. The rule for instant attacks is most always slower = superior.



Edit: Thank you Broseph, I will look into it.

 

Althir

This is why I take Epidemic in the 0/44/27 build I'm planning to use after the patch. I take Icy Reach to get to the lowest tiers of the Frost tree as well. For something like Grobbulus, for example, you can strafe and continue shooting off IT as you run away, giving you a fresh 18s Frost Fever when you finally leave the (extended) range.

Let's look at fights:
Abom wing:
1) Patchwerk - Obviously ideal for the rotation
2) Grobbulus - As I said above, with extended range and Epidemic, maintaining FF isn't as hard as it might seem here. It's not exactly optimal though, I'll give you that.
3) Gluth - My guild usually kills this guy with only one round of AoEing adds, so you only have to worry about this once during this fight. If you refresh your DoT, IT -> pestilence -> a couple HB (now off CD!) on the adds, they're dead pretty quickly. Depending on your UI, you can turn back and refresh your Fever mid-aoe if you want without much commotion.
4) Thaddius - Kinda like Patchwerk, you won't lose your disease at any point.

Spider wing:
1)Anubrekan - Again, the extended range and epidemic help. When your raid leader tells the melee to GTFO, you can continue shooting off IT at a range. If your guild does enough DPS, you can just kill him before he moves anyway.
2)Grand Widow - This fight is kind of a joke, even without epidemic you can kill the add in time to resume your rotation with frost fever still up. The AoE damage is weak and even if your healers want you to move, IBF and AMS mitigate it beyond danger.
3)Maexxna - Epidemic should cover you for both getting stuck to the wall and the web wrap.

Military Wing:
1)Instructor - Stand and kill. Ideal.
2)Gothik - This fight is more about the adds anyway. He will certainly wreck your frost fever when he teleports though. Not a great fight, but again, this fight is decided entirely during the adds phase.
3)4-horsemen - This one is the worst yet, since even if your guild has perfect DPS and kills each horseman one at a time, you still have to suffer the problem 4 times.

Plague Wing:
1)Noth - You'll lose your disease exactly once, every time, I think. You decide if this is worth the superior rotation.
2)Heigen - I don't know about anybody else, but I just continue to shell Heigen during the dance. IT -> HB -> DC rotation, with an extra HB with Rime procs once the patch is in effect. When he comes off the platform, he will already have FF and you can use ERW to reset your runes and start your rotation fresh (which I imagine you'd do anyway, regardless of normal rotation, if you need it).
3)Loatheb - Stand and kill. Ideal.

Sapphiron - With extended range, you can keep shooting IT when he takes off. With epidemic, when its "get safe" time, you may very well be able to keep your disease up. I haven't tried this spec on Saph yet, so I can't say for sure. The rotation gets better as your raids DPS gets better (less P2 time).

KT - If you get MCd, you'll lose your disease. If not, you should be fine for the whole fight.

Malygos - P1 you can maintain your rotation, P2 there are too many mobs with too little health to care too much about a rotation anyway. P3, obviously, need not apply to this conversation.

Sartharion - Optimal, though for each drake you add to the main fight, that adds one time for the setup.

Archavon - Optimal

Conclusion:

The number of unfavorable fights is nowhere near 80%. Of course, most of the questionable fights get better with epidemic, and even better with icy reach.

 

Nyx

After trying multiple builds and multiple suggested rotations I'm really wondering where the superior dps is supposed to be in this spec. I have no problem at all breaking almost 3k with the standard 2h unholy build on the heroic dummy whereas I struggle to even crack 2k with the 32/39 setup.

 

Broseph

@ Totemologist.

BCB uses normalized mainhand damage when calculating weapon damage. If you have 3000 AP and a Hailstorm, to use a simple example, your normalized mainhand damage is:

(164+306)/2 + (1/14)*2.4*3000

In other words, the AP contribution applies as if it a 2.4 speed weapon, regardless of its actual speed.

Read the treatise on weapon speed in the DK forum for more information.

 

Marloc

Wrong gear, wrong rotations or you're doing something magically wrong - I break my 2h DPS with Unholy easily after tweaking gear, changing my Belt from razuvious to chivalry and frozen pain to t7 BP, I gained a rough 180DPS, it sounds silly perhaps but it really matters with right gear for right purposes

 

Nyx

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=S%C3%ADnful

I highly doubt two slots are costing me almost a 1k dps. And as I said I've tried every rotation listed here to no avail. I'm just at wits end on where these numbers are supposedly coming from with dk's in blues

 

Asari

Your expertise is a bit low, that isn't helping.

From personal experience, I've had better DPS results from lower hit (around 8%) and higher crit (about 30%) than I have getting a really high hit rating by a low crit rate.




Most of the big DPS numbers comes from the pet... using gargoyle at the right time is crucial to seeing high DPS numbers, especially in short fights. For example, if on a dummy you get up to 100 RP asap, then as soon as trinkets proc summon your gargoyle... keep it up for the full minute then break away and leave combat soon as it dies.. you'll have really, really sick DPS numbers. As you move towards 3 minutes your numbers get lower.

DW DPS in and of itself without the pets is actually pretty bad, especially compared to 2H. I've yet to see anyone beat a blood or frost DK in equal quality gear without using the pets. Of course, the issue of pets really doesn't matter. When it comes down to it damage is damage. If the boss dies you get loot - doesn't matter how he dies.

 

Mooncrow

While true, you could at least provide a slow weapon comparison for clarity. The base weapon damage is still going to be somewhat larger for a slow weapon. Looking at Silent Crusader for instance:


(164+306)/2 + ((1/14)*2.4*3000) = 235 + 514 = 749

vs

(274+509)/2 + ((1/14)*2.4*3000) = 391.5 + 514 = 905.5

so giving us a base BCB damage (assuming 3 diseases up) of 468 vs 566. Significant? Probably not enough to make up for the increased KM proc chance, but worth looking at when doing the calculations.

 

Epicness

Note to Nyx:
The heroic dummy isnt in a raid boss. Worry about your dps in raids, not with your own buffs. Yesterday with only 2200AP and three epics i managed to do 2.6k dps on the plague wing in 25man naxxramas. Your gear is much better than mine, in raids you will be way higher on the charts than that. So don't worry about your dps on a dummy, wait till the raid and look at your damage there.

 

poring

Does anyone know off hand if Necrosis does more damage with DW than 2H, and how much Merciless Combat affects DPS on a target dummy? My best friend the last few days have been the heroic dummy, but it's always at 1 HP and I can't run tests properly without knowing this since Necrosis won't cause overkill and Merciless Combat is always up for a 0/32/39 spec (so it's higher DPS than it should be).

For example, I got ~2974DPS with 0/32/39, ~2800DPS with 0/20/51, and ~2933 with 2H Unholy. The 0/32/39 is inflated though because of Merciless Combat... and none of these numbers factor in Necrosis at all, so if it helps one spec (or weapon choices) more than another, these numbers are off.

Armory reflects what I'm using for dual wield. I'm finding fast/fast lower DPS than slow/fast, but realized that my mace skill was at 395/400 and one of my weapons was Maexxna's Femur. Must do more testing...

 

• Ren

Another week, another Patchwerk. 6812.5 DPS this time. I have almost the same gear (just [Girdle of Chivalry] over [Flame-Bathed Steel Girdle]) and I'm using the same rotation as before. The only 'major' change was offhanding Cinderglacier over Razorice--which doesn't seem like it would make that big of a difference, so I assume I just got luckier with the RNG. The fact that this week's kill was 5 seconds faster than last week definitely helps. I was maintaining over 7k DPS until the end of the fight due to AotD and Gargoyle.

Recount SS - WWS Link (still bugged and lacking Army of the Dead + Ghoul)

I played around with the boss target dummy a bit and found that ignoring Rime procs (add /cancelaura Freezing Fog to your IT/HB macros) was definitely more DPS, and that Cinderglacier OH was clearly more personal DPS than dual FC or Razorice OH. We went over to the PTR to test out class/spec damage in 3.0.8, but sadly Killing Machine still doesn't work at all on there. Hopefully it's fixed before the patch goes live.

 

Ministera

I too am wondering this. I've read this thread pretty thoroughly (albeit mostly pretty late at night :P ), and I haven't seen this yet. It's quite obvious from some rudimentary tests of my own that fast/fast is superior for 0/32/39, and even that the weapons should be as fast as possible. However, exactly what kind of weighting .1 weapon speed has compared to other stats is unclear, and I don't have the epics necessary to test.

 

arclestat

I was wondering if anyone had a set list of gear to snag? I was looking around at all the gear that drops for plate and there's a TON of choices for things to get. I was trying to see if there was some guideline or something specific I would be aiming for? Stats to get to, etc. Right now I've just been going for hit and ap and crit.

My Armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Wondering what I should be looking for the most. Was curious if someone has like an "ideal set" of gear.

 

Grrth

Hi there, for this spec what is the best rotation you would recomend? And what do you think of taking points out of bladded armor and putting them into shadow of death and Impurity? And is more ap really viable versus crit in this new expansion, seems that my crit is so low specing into this. I love the dual wield spec, and am very favorable to crit chance as well. What's your take on it?