Teme

Generally, points in blood makes you miss out the essential points in frost and unholy.

You should have 20% crit atleast with all the heroic gear and thats fine for KM procs.

 

• vank

Ren, can you elaborate a bit on the add/cancelaura Freezing Fog? I'm a bit confused as to how you're implementing that.

 

• Ren

These are my IT and HB macros. If you want to use them, choose the ? icon.

#showtooltip
/cancelaura Freezing Fog
/startattack
/cast [mod:ctrl] Path of Frost; Icy Touch

#showtooltip [mod:ctrl] Death Strike; Howling Blast
/cancelaura Freezing Fog
/startattack
/cast [mod:ctrl] Death Strike; Howling Blast
/cast Rune Strike

/cancelaura Freezing Fog just removes the buff Rime gives you when it procs, making the IT or HB cost runes instead of nothing (which can delay your rotation).

 

MikeMo

Has anybody done any tests on how good MH'ing Last Laugh is compared to another MH weapon you would use? I picked up Last Laugh and Split Greathammer tonight (replaced Femur and Grasscutter) and I am wondering if the much higher weapon DPS on Last Laugh outweighs the other beneficial stats of a different 213 iLvl 1.6 weapon. You are losing stat points on Parry, Def and the extra stam on it but I'm wondering just how much better or worse it will be.

Does anybody have an educated guess on what would be the DW best in slot weapons? And would a 1.5 speed weapon like Hailstorm be preferable as an OH compared to Split Greathammer?

 

• Darkside

From the small amount of tests that I have run, Hailstorm and Last Laugh both come up as very good weapons to use as DW. Hailstorm is probably better, due to the 1.5 speed and more KM procs, but it's a small difference.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Foxx2405

Lets get this BCB issue over with once and for all, lets take these 2 weapons:
Fast: [Hatestrike]
Slow: [Torment of the Banished]

Why those 2? Because they came to mind, they have pretty much the same dps and one is slow and one is fast.

We're gonna compare Fast/Fast to Slow/Fast

2 Things to keep in mind:

- BCB is normalized, so the contribution of AP to the damage is equal for both weapons, normalized at 2.4 speed.
- Offhand BCB generate procs on the main hand, so we only have to calculate the MH damage.

Lets take 3000 AP since its a bit of a standard for an unbuffed situation. Most people hang around that value, and it seems to be a much used value on the board.
A small FYI, the more AP you get the better a fast hand will be since the base weapon damage will get respectively smaller compared to the AP contribution.

Slow MH damage:
(261+485)/2 + ( 2.4 * 3000 / 14 ) = 373 + 514 = 887 dmg

Fast MH damage:
(160+299)/2 + ( 2.4 * 3000 / 14 ) = 230 + 514 = 744 dmg

Lets assume 2 diseases to make this easy (more diseases go in favor of the slow MH though, but its a very minor difference), so we get 50% MH damage on a proc

Slow BCB damage = 444 dmg
Fast BCB damage = 372 dmg

Now lets calculate the amount of procs. We'll ignore haste, as (unless I'm mistaken) that should add the same benefit to either weapon.

Ok the slow / fast combination have an attack speed of 2.60 / 1.60.
This is where it gets tricky and my math might start to fail, especially this early.

Ok, i chose the most annoying weapon speeds ever but, every 416 seconds the main hand hit 160 times and the offhand 260 times ( i know these give annoying numbers but so be it)

Ok so every 416 seconds we have 420 hits. With a 30% proc rate.

----------

420 * 0.30 = 126 proc
126 * 444 dmg = 55944 damage
55944 / 416 = 134.48 dps

-------------

The fast/fast combination has an attackspeed of 1.60 and 1.60.
Lets take the same timespan to make the maths easier to compare. So we'll take 416 seconds again. In which both weapons attack 260 times. For a total of 520 hits

520 * 0.30 = 156 procs
156 * 372 dmg = 58032 dmg
58032 / 416 = 139.5 dps

I guess we can pretty much conclude indeed that weapon speed has very little effect on the DPS you get from Blood-Caked Blades.

The extra DPS a slow main hand would get due to offhand procs triggering main hand attacks, is offset by the fact that the attacks are normalized.

EDIT: Bolded all math to make it easier to spot between the lines

 

Ish

Its a issue for any spec that use direct spells as the main source of damage, 20/51 take advantage of the same mechanic.

My main issue is with the double dipping and that we are taking advantage of a possible oversight, the scaling potential is off the chart since certain specs are benefitting to a very large extent from scaling raidbuffs from both caster and physical dps.

I have spent an hour going over WWS:s and compiled info on Death Knight abilities trying to find a definate on wether or not Imp Scorch debuff and elemental focus affects Scourge Strike, my assumption is no since it is still a melee strike even though it does shadow damage.

I will test it later today

 

Shavi

Nevermind, I'm dumb.

 

Fugazor

+15% crit for IT

 

kamiu

My guess would be the +15% critical strike chance of IT.
Which would probably outweigh the damage from the alternative (annihilation) due to the large amount of IT moves in his rotation.

 

• Asphyxialol

My primary question is whether 0/44/27 S/F is going to exceed 0/32/39 F/F in the 3.0.8 Patch.

I haven't seen anything concrete math regarding tests on the current PTR to reflect anything, but it would seem a combo such as Angry Dread / Hailstorm with 0/44/27 would exceed the dps rotation of F/F 0/32/39. While KM procs would be slightly reduced, Blood Strike, RP dump phases and the large increase on the damage KM procs produce would outbalance the slight bonuses the 12 additional points in unholy give.

 

Souli

Regarding patch 3.0.8:
How about if we drop the 2 points from Chill of the Grave (since the IT Glyph gets buffed) and put the 2 points into Runic Power Mastery to pump it to 120 = 3x DC. Dunno if we generate enough RP to fill the 120 though.

Regarding NotD after the patch: Is worth picking it up since your Ghoul could survive every encounter with the avoidance and the buffed hp pool through the glyph.

 

kurokaze

I would expect 44/27 F/F (no frost strike, rather UA or something) to be superior to 44/27 S/F in practice, due mainly to the idea that KM procs should be used on HB rather than FS and that maintaining this in practice with Frost Strike in the rotation seems rather difficult to manage while e.g. not standing in fire. Whether this beats out 31/40 I'm not sure yet.

side note - I'm rather puzzled as to why 32/39 is considered universally superior to 31/40. I can see going 32/39 if you don't find NotD necessary but I can't imagine not doing so. Additional points in Crypt Fever and Merciless Combat are both pretty marginal increases but Crypt Fever has raid dps implications - at least until CF and Ebon Plague stop double stacking the disease bonus.

 

Paladei

I understand why Freezing Fog is being cancelled, and the macro won't be required once HB has it's CD removed, but can't the rotation be modified to take advantage of it?

If you have Freezing Fog and toss out your HB, add an Obliterate if specced into Annihilation, then RP dump? Are there downsides to this? This will, obviously, require watching for the Freezing Fog buff, or more closely watching the RP generated through a rotation...

Other than the added GCD I just can't see why a free move, when there are other ways to consume the runes, is bad.

 

Led ++

I guess so since this would mean that your ghoul will be up most of the times (or so I think) .. plus with the Glyph it gets quite a good buff.

A quite typical spec like 32/39 will be good enough I suppose.

http://thepiratebootybay.com/ THE best Addon site out there!

 

kurokaze

Paladei: "If specced into Annihilation" is big though. There's no room for it in 31/39+1. Therefore, the macro is needed for that spec. It shouldn't be needed for 44/27 since you can easily pick up Annihilation there. (But it might help due to suboptimal play and the extra attention needed for your method.)

 

Paladei

You know, my brain just completely blocked that spec out of the picture. That makes more sense now. Thanks.

 

tedv

Logically I don't understand the benefit of canceling the rime proc. In the abstract, how would you answer this question? "Given that you've decided your next ability should be Howling Blast, would you rather the runes refreshed in 10 seconds or immediately?" The answer should always be "immediately". It's always better to have runes up than not. (Exception: Blade Barrier, but that isn't remotely relevant here.)

Are you really saying that when you deprioritized Howling Blast in your rotation in favor of other stuff (eg. Icy Touch, Runic Power dumps), you saw a DPS improvement? That sounds reasonable. Can you clarify the priority queue you used in testing?

 

kurokaze

tedv:

It's not clear from your post whether you are considering that you gain 15 RP by cancelling Freezing Fog, assuming a blind rotation with no Annihilation or other way of dealing with the extra runes beneficially.

Still, it does seem that using the extra runes on a single Icy Touch would, or at least could, be beneficial, as this gives us an extra 5 RP and significant damage at the cost of a GCD and having to pay slightly more attention.

 

Janraea

It certainly appears to be a loss - with the extra runes you can change a DC into an IT. People have an aversion to leaving runes active, but it doesn't really hurt anything..

Also, putting it in the macro seems like a terrible idea - when your gargoyle is out, you *certainly* don't want to drop the Rime proc, you want to use the extra runes from it to fill the dead space where you used to dump RP!

 

Foxx2405

Don't forget that one of the big reasons people (including me) cancel freezing fog is that it is bugged at the moment.

If you use a Howling Blast with the Freezing Fog effect up, it won't generate 20 RP but 5 RP.

You can just chose to ignore the fact HB wont use runes (and next patch you can spam it twice), however the lower RP can be a huge burden, especially when you don't have the Icy Touch glyph and/or when you have the gargoyle up.

EDIT: Actually it might not be a bug, it might be intended since you basically get a free move extra. However with HB on cooldown, obliterate doing pretty low damage and removing diseases, and the fact that we don't have unlimited free GCDs available. It's currently reason enough to cancel it.

 

Paladei

Foxx - I was under the impression that the lower RP generation was "working as intended." Isn't RP generated through the consumption of runes, as opposed to using the ability? (unless talented into Chill of the Grave) Thus, since HB isn't using runes because of Freezing Fog, it's not generating as much Runic Power as normal?

This was the whole point of confusion. If it's working as intended, the runes are still available to generate more runic power, just at the cost of an additional GCD. Even if not specced into Annihilation, and you wanted to use the runes for something you could toss in another IT, use DS... there are many things that could be done. So why cancel it was the question.

If it is bugged, and is still meant to generate the runic power, I suppose it makes a little more sense.

 

Herb

Ren is using a rotation, not a priority system, and with U/F runes available due to Freezing Fog, you're getting the wrong cue for when the next half-rotation starts (the next rune refresh), essentially breaking the rotation. For priority system users, this shouldn't be an issue.

Maniq: Herb is awesome.

 

dukes

I don't see how this is a bug. You aren't using runes, therefore you shouldn't be generating RP from their non-use. The 5 RP generated is from Chill of the Grave, which specifically states that you gain 5 RP when casting, not when using runes to cast. It seems like short-changing at the moment (HB with a cooldown), but it would be rather ridiculous post-patch.

 

tedv

To summarize:

Canceling the Rime proc causes Howling Blast to generate an additional 15 runic power.

Alright, that's sufficient motivation assuming this works out to a DPS increase. Given that you're very likely to be GCD capped and the tests said it was an increase, I'm inclined to believe canceling the aura is a net increase in damage.

For the record, rotations are a subset of priority systems. They are the subset that do not include contingencies to account for state-based logic (such as random procs, being runic power capped, or getting parried). At any rate, sorry for the nitpick.