Melchior

I think the problem is more of a GCD issue. While a Rime-powered Howling Blast only generates 5 RP (from Chill of the Grave, otherwise it would be 0), if you spent the U/F that were freed from it you'd gain 35 RP instead of 15 (from IT/PS). The bigger problem is that instead of using 1 GCD on HB, you use 1 on HB, one on IT and one on PS before moving on with the rotation from that U/F, which will push those runes outward every time it happens if the Howling Blast attempt did not occur almost instantly as the runes refreshed.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

shed

deleted.

 

Janraea

I agree with that explanation, but it still seems wrong. Even ignoring the 'when gargoyle is out' issue.. Think of it this way:

After HB, delay whatever you would have done by one gcd and cast icy touch. That pushes back your rotation, priority queue, or whatever by one gcd, and gets an extra IT cast, while losing you 15 RP. That IT gives you 15 RP, and IT has a higher dps than your rotation does, so it should be universally good. The only argument that makes mathematical sense is that mentally processing that situation causes issues while trying to dodge fire. (If you're using a pure priority system, having that free unholy rune not be used might change what happens, but a properly defined priority system shouldn't get anything but benefit out of it anyway. If the priority is simplified to the point that the extra unholy being there *decreases* net dps, then it probably should be changed anyway.)

In short, the observation that cancelling the Rime proc gains dps means that the rotation/priority system isn't flexible enough to use it. That may be necessary, I could believe that the 'correct' priority or rotation is complicated, or possibly outside human capability while not burning our feet, but there ought to be a better way to take advantage of it than to just cancel it.

 

the_mort

This is one of the main reasons why I cancel Freezing Fog. It irritates the hell out me if I get a free Howling Blast. I'm used to watch runes to see if an abillity was used or not, so i try to hammer the Howling Blast hotkey again like a maniac.

I can't wait for 3.0.8...

"Progress just means bad things happen faster." -- Granny Weatherwax

 

tedv

I don't think that's the correct way of looking at things. If you didn't cast Howling Blast, the next thing you'd cast would be Icy Touch anyway. So it's not a question of whether you defer all future runic abilities to cast Icy Touch. It's whether you defer them to cast a Howling Blast that only generates 5 runic power. Testing implies it's not, although some more rigorous analysis could explain at what point it would be worth it.

If it's worth deferring your rotation then great. But if it's not, then whether or not you want to cancel the cast depends on how many spare GCDs you have in your typical rotation. If you have one or more spare GCDs, then you shouldn't cancel the rime proc. At that point it's free damage. If you have zero spare GCDs, then a Howling Blast that generates 20 runic power is just better than one that generates 5 runic power.

At any rate, there are three possible options for the cooldown:

Howling Blast + 20 RP
Howling Blast + 5 RP
Icy Touch + 25 RP

Clearly HB20 > HB5 and HB20 > IT25. The testing implies that IT25 > HB5, but are we certain that's the case? Maybe it's better to cast a rune-free Howling Blast that generates 20 less runic power than the associated icy touch, because if you're low on GCDs, you might not have much opportunity to blow half a death coil anyway. I'll look over some WWS parses and see if there's any consensus from that.

 

Evovi

Ren I've noticed from your armory that you seem to be taking a different approach then other DW DK's and keeping extremely low hit rating. From what I'm seeing your not even hit capped for 2 handers, and far off that of spell cap which I understand to be the important level for DW builds. Yet your numbers are impressive to say the least. And I am not seeing any ridiculously high miss rate on your most important attacks (IT,HB) as I would expect from a sub 8% hit rating. My question to you is are you using +hit food to help make up for it? Or is the raid your in simply always include a SP/oomkin for the extra spell hit on top of your own +3% from virulence to help close that gap? As your armory shows, you have been able to stack a good amount of AP for a dw build without Bladed armor because you were able to ignore a Lotta +hit items and gemming.

 

Janraea

There are multiple correct ways to 'look at things', but mine happens to be the one that makes it obvious that a free HB is dps gain. I'll break it down logically:

First, IT is higher dps than the rotation/priority (I'm not counting RP here at all).
Second, having an unholy rune available that isn't used does not decrease dps, except insofar as it throws off your technique for measuring what should come next. I'll assume a perfectly skilled player, that can make decisions instantly, to leave that question out of the conversation.

Now, starting situation: Frost and Unholy runes available, Rime procced.
Possibility A: Cancel Rime, HB. 1.5 seconds taken, HB cast, F,U runes used.
Possibility B: Cast HB, Cast IT. 3.0 seconds taken, HB cast, F rune used.
Finishing situation in B is the same as in A, except 1.5 more seconds have passed and Rune timers are all shorter than in A (which can't be a dps loss for the perfect player).
We want to know which situation produces higher dps.

First, we need to know what the dps of the whole rotation is. This is the 'strike dps' - net dps from PS,IT,HB,DC,BS, and FS. Pushing the rotation/priority system back by 1.5 seconds costs us this much damage times 1.5 seconds. In three seconds, we have:
A = HB_damage + 1.5*strike_dps
B = HB_damage + IT_damage


So B is the better choice if IT_damage > 1.5*strike_dps. I'm confident that that's the case for 32/39, but I have no experience with 44/27

Now, considering KM procs makes it a bit messier. You're not going to have a 90% crit chance on that IT you added in, so really you need IT_dps_without_KM to be bigger than 1.5*strike_dps. I'm generally confident of that right now as well, but feel free to correct me!

 

tedv

You can't discount the value of runic power though. For example, consider the following highly abridged situation. Suppose you only have access to three abilities:

Howling Blast: 10 damage, 20 runic power, depletes UF runes
Free Howling Blast: 10 damage, 5 runic power, depletes no runes.
Death Coil: 1,000,000 damage, costs 40 runic power

Furthermore, suppose your runes refresh every 2 seconds (not 10), and you only have two runes: an unholy and a frost. Would you ever cast Free Howling Blast in the rotation that maximizes damage?

Time 0: Howling Blast (10 damage, 20 runic power)
Time 2: Howling Blast (20 damage, 40 runic power)
Time 3.5: Death Coil (1,000,020 damage, 0 runic power)
Time 5: Repeat cycle

This works out to 200,004 DPS.

Any cycle you try that involves the Free Howling Blast will lower your DPS because the bulk of your damage comes from Death Coil, and generating 5 runic power instead of 20, even if it lets you cast a Howling Blast half a second earlier (gain of 5 DPS), isn't worth deferring 3/8ths of a death coil (loss of tens of thousands of DPS).

This is not a realistic example, but it's designed to prove a point: You cannot just ignore the runic power gains. The whole reason the general rule exists of "don't cap out your runic power" is that death coil is better damage per cooldown than rune abilities. If it weren't the case, we'd just spam rune cooldowns even and only blow runic power when all runes were down the way blood does.

 

kurokaze

Disregard, huge math error.

 

Deathwing

There was some talk earlier in the thread about DW rotation when HB's cooldown is removed, and I'd like to revisit that.

HB -> HB -> BS/IT -> IT/BS was suggested because it's a good way 2 HB per rune cooldown, and it probably maximizes KM procs and reduces frost fever clipping. Also, from what I've found, HB ~= 3 ticks of blood plague + 2 plague strikes. And HB will win out once the crypt fever and ebon plaguebringer bug is fixed.

So, the only mentioned downside to that rotation is if you switch targets a lot. However, I don't think that is the case. Yes, on your first rotation, you lose half your average howling blast damage. Considering you're switching targets, it might be safe to also assume that the chances of KM being up is low, so the lost damage is somewhat lower. Anyway, let's use Ren's latest WWS as an example:

http://wowwebstats.com/yv1wglytfyd5o...201&a=x24d2552

What this rotation allows the use of 2 death coils, if you have the RP for it. That's where the lost damage is made up. The other rotations, using plague strike, don't have enough time on the first 10s to double death coil. From Ren's WWS, death coil is conveniently approximately half the average damage of howling blast. Since HB/HB/BS/IT only generates 75 RP per 10s, if you start at 0 RP, it will take 6 10s rotations to make up the lost damage. However, if you're target switching a lot, or if it's the start of the fight, use the belf racial/horn of winter/empower rune weapon, it's likely you'll be (re)starting with some RP. Then, it will only take 30s to make up the lost damage.

Other things to consider: I believe it was posted a page ago that you need ~15% haste to fit 2 death coils into a 5 rune ability rotation. Is that easy to acquire from current top-end gear? Other rotations start out with IT->PS, meaning you have to be in contact with your target by your second ability. HB -> HB -> IT means you can start your rotation much earlier. If you're already in combat from switching targets, why not? It's not going to hurt your WWS.

 

Janraea

>You can't discount the value of runic power though.

I wasn't. In case B you end up with the same amount of RP as case A, unless you're using the IT glyph. Then you have more.

Your example fits my equations just fine. DC is included in the strike_dps value, so in your exaggerated example, strike_dps would be extremely high - definitely higher than IT dps.

>The whole reason the general rule exists of "don't cap out your runic power" is that death coil is better damage per cooldown than rune abilities.

First, that's not true. HB is definitely higher dps than DC, and IT is also, counting KM. Second, it doesn't matter - the two approaches produce the same amount of RP. The 'general rule' you mention is a 'rule of thumb'. It's a useful principle for deriving rotations, but it is not a hard and fast rule to live by.

Give me a sequence of real attacks and I'll calculate some napkin dps for it, and then give you the sequence that doesn't ignore rime and is higher, ok? Make sure to include at least a full rotation before and after the rime proc is ignored, and state the rune and rp situation before and after the sequence.

I'm not sure why you're using that order. Putting your frost attacks all clumped together definitely does *not* maximize KM procs - you want them spread out as evenly as possible. The other loss that you have to compare with is the rime procs - if, as you say, HB hits twice as hard as DC, a rime proc is worth an extra DC. You lose a lot of rime procs by only having 2 IT per 20 seconds, instead of 4. The math gets complicated enough that a simulator (or good spreadsheet) is the only way to compare the two rotations effectively.

But if 2xHB is the best way to go, it will certainly be IT,DC,HB,DC,HB,BS/BS,DC,HB,DC,HB,IT or something very like it. Keep a gcd of non-frost before each HB to maximize HB KM procs.

 

Deathwing

Janraea,

You have to stick the HB first so that you ensure the death rune is always used by IT. The rotation you mentioned won't work because the death rune in the first 10s won't be used until the second HB, and blood rune refresh won't be ready in time for the BS in the second 10s.

As you said, you can stagger the rotation I mentioned with DC like you did.

HB,DC,HB,DC,IT,BS -> HB,DC,HB,DC,BS,IT

 

Davey

I returned to game just before WOTLK came, and haven't really focused on all the theorycraft and gear comparisons so much i used to. I'm currently considering the cloak enchant for Drape of deadly foe. Seems to be that 22agi is bad for both 2H and DW specs, and haste well is bad for 2H and not THAT bad for DW, but seeing ppl using both of the enchants in their cloaks with both 2H and DW specs, I really cant decide between them ( prolly only minimal difference ). I really want enchant that works well with both playstyles of Deathknight, since i prefer changing between few specs instead staying as 1 for months.

Any calculations behind those facts, how much haste should one stack with DW etc...

"This is where the law stops and I start!"

 

tedv

I crunched some basic numbers from that WWS. Here are the average damage values for each activated ability. This does NOT count the disease ticks from Frost Fever or Blood Plague.

Howling Blast: 7986
Icy Touch: 4621
Plague Strike: 856
Blood Strike: 1325
Death Coil: 4095

The most important fact is that Death Coil is less damage than Howling Blast and Icy Touch. This implies that some amount of runic power overflow could occur in the optimal rotation. It will definitely make optimal DPS tricky, because if you have lots of free GCDs coming up, you'll want to prioritize Death Coil above stuff that would cap you on rune power. But if you are due for a string of Icy Touches, it's still better to cast those than Death Coil. In reality, the ideal situation will be to cast just enough Death Coil that you don't lose any GCDs and spend all the other GCDs on Icy Touch. This will take practice to perfect, and there won't be a set rotation that perfectly optimizing your damage. Partially this is from general human error and partially because of how resists and misses will throw off your cycle.

Next, take a look at the total damage value of a few alternatives:

Howling Blast + 20 runic power: 10033 (1.5 GCDs)
Howling Blast + 5 runic power: 8498 (1.125 GCDs)
Icy Touch + 25 runic power: 7180 (1.625 GCDs)
Icy Touch + Plague Strike + 35 runic Power: 9060 (2.875 GCDs)

This clearly states that Howling Blast should be prioritized over Icy Touch in all situations. This is doubly true now, as Icy Touch has a 6 second cooldown, and the sooner you cast the first, the sooner you can cast the next. If you can only cast one Howling Blast and you are GCD limited, then removing the rime proc could in theory be a DPS increase. But given the runic power capping issues, I'm not convinced it will really matter.

That leads me to believe the proper priority queue is this:

Icy Touch (when Frost Fever is down)
Plague Strike (when Blood Plague and Desecration are down)
Howling Blast
Icy Touch
Blood Strike
Death Coil (when not runic power capped)
Plague Strike

And Death Coil (runic power capped) is either right before Howling Blast, after Howling Blast, or after Icy Touch, depending on the runic power situation. My intuition says that if prioritize Death Coil after Howling Blast but before Icy Touch, you'll get it right for the majority of situations.

 

Janraea

Not necessary. There will only be one rune active when it is time to hit that IT, and it's the death rune. I always consider the steady state situation - in the first 10 seconds of the fight, you won't do exactly this.

That said, this is the fundamental flaw with rotation use. They're only good on fights where there is a steady-state, like patchwerk.

This looks right, though my specs rarely have desecration in them - I have PS_no_plague as right below HB instead of above it.

We don't have enough discussion about what to do when the gargoyle's out. With no IT glyph, IT,PS,IT,BS,(wait),HB looks like the obvious choice, but leaves you 10RP short of maintaining your gargoyle - IT,PS,IT,BS,IT,PS is still 5 short, unless you have both dirge and Chill of the Grave. With full runic power to start with, losing ten RP every 10 seconds would let you keep up the gargoyle for 60 seconds exactly, so no DC allowed for the whole minute. (With the glyph, you can have a DC every 20 seconds).

 

Dreadknight

I'm seeing the DW spec looking like a 0/32/39 spec now rather than the previously accepted Tri-Spec. I'm looking at this spec as a possibility but one of the problems I have with Deep Unholy are the pets. To be honest. I hate them. I would love the DPS they can provide but too often don't. they have very poor survivability to fights with AOE and die very quickly. One thing I have been finding success with in mobs of 3 or more is infecting the 1st mob then using Pest to spread to all surrounding mobs and using Blood Boil when it's up. Would an AOE-Centric build like this be viable?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

tedv

I thought a lot about where to prioritize Plague Strike, and the major reason to put it above Howling Blast was Desecration. However, with the Howling Blast cooldown being removed, the other reason to use Plague Strike first is rune timing, as you are most likely to have used a single frost rune right before it. I believe this means you cast your Howling Blasts 1.5 seconds sooner. It probably doesn't make a big difference, as icy touch will be up for most of the fight anyway.

Every Rime proc will give you a bonus 5 runic power during Gargoyle. This will be sufficient to keep it up. You also have Empower Rune Weapon to keep him alive, which you should be using once per fight anyway.

By the way, I'm doing all theorycrafting assuming you have the Icy Touch glyph. I see absolutely no reason to give it up, given that 25% of a death coil is significantly more damage than 10% of an Icy Touch. And next patch the 10% damage reduction won't be there either.

 

Janraea

Sure, if your guild always kills bosses 2-3 at a time. Aoe-centric builds are not useful on most bosses, because most bosses aren't set up to be aoe'd. While you might do better on a damage meter if the meter maid is including trash, it hardly seems to have a point - you'll never get to the aoe level of a caster. If you hate pets that much, you should stick to deep blood or deep frost, and avoid dual-wielding.

 

• Ren

Are you sure about that? To answer Dreadknight though, AoE dps on bosses is rarely important, and pet management is really not that hard. Only Sapphiron really destroys pets without AoE avoidance.

 

Zadus

deleted

 

Bsiddiq

Furthermore...I don't understand why you'd spec into NotD when you don't get Master of Ghouls.

 

Mooncrow

To echo Ren; if you aren't leading the trash damage meter, you're probably doing it wrong. That being said, you don't need to spec into an "AOE centric" build to do that.

Dreadknight, your spec has some pretty glaring issues as well; not taking Bone Shield (ignoring the increased survival, the 2% damage increase for one talent point is silly to pass up), 3/3 Outbreak is a smaller increase than gargoyle even if you were to "fire and forget" and not worry about feeding it RP. And NotD with no pet?

On the whole, if you hate pets, no flavor of Unholy is the right spec for you. Even on bosses where it's hard to keep up (Sapphiron, Heigan), its a good 8-10% of your damage, up to 15% on bosses that don't kill it. Gargoyle is another 10-15%; leaving that much damage on the floor so you can put it in mediocre <1% damage per point talents isn't viable.

 

Deathwing

Ren, why are the amount of pestilence hits much higher than blood boil hits? Or does trash die that damn fast on your raids?

Is there a better rotation for AoEing than IT,PS,P,HB,BB? Maybe picking up epidemic so you can HBx3 on the second 10s, but that would affect your single target dps because you'd most likely take points out of desecration.

With Pestilence CD being removed, makes me think twice about a 43/27+1 build instead of 32/39.

 

froggiess

For trash, I usually IT-> Pest -> HB -> BB because the trash dies fast enough that PS is insignificant, and you will have HB up again 1.5sec earlier than you would if you PS.

 

Janraea

Yeah, I forget how fast trash dies these days >.<
IT,Pest,HB,HB, dead will top any meter there is, and IT,Pest,HB, dead is almost as good. I was thinking aoe over time - we are very good at frontloading damage, but we'd never be able to keep up with a lock spamming seed, or a mage spamming aoe over long periods.