Just as a heads up to theorycrafters (though no numbers were given) the garg will evidently take a nerfing sometime in the future.

GC on the gargoyle.

I think I'm just bad and don't use BB as much as I should. Looking at the numbers Blood Boiling even two mobs is better than using Blood Strike.

Well mages do run out of mana at some point... and as for locks and seed spam? Here's a complete Hyjal DM up to Azgalor. Howling Blast is very good.

I am confused on the macro. Why do we have /cast Path of Frost and /cast Death Strike included in the macro?

Hi all, here is my first post on this forum and I do not speak English very very well.

I played rogue before falling in love with my gnom and I was quite aware about cycles asm.
But, we have Dk wich has a pretty new mechanic. Are cycles so important ? With the 00/32/39 spec, I'm playing with the 'rollface skill' and I'm often in the top 5 of my guild. Playing with priorities isn't good ? Well, it's quite nooblike to push on all the buttons when they're up but it seems to be effective.

With Priority HB > all.


BUT, because my pleasure doesn't care if I speak about raids and efficiency, is the "PS-IT-HB-BS-BS-(runic dump)
PS-IT-HB-IT-IT-(runic dump)" cycle the best way to make the WWS explode ? Needs it Epidemic ?

I would finish my brandy new first post by apologizing for my bad english and thanking you all a lot for all the work here.

Bye !

Hiya, I play a dual wielding deathknight for a while now and im loving it a lot. I got an idea id like to throw in here for discussion tho as I seem to be getting good results with it.
The general concensus seems to be that a lot of people spec 32/39, go blood presence, and do their rotation. What I am currently doing is running 44/27 in unholy presence. The main play style I use at the moment is to basicly use up my runes asap, then rune dump asap so that my next howling blast will likely have a KM proc. Since I blow my froststrikes as fast as I can to hopefully prevent this way that my next HB wont have a KM proc.

Basic single target rotation is quite standard. PS IT HB BS BS, froststrikes/HoW... HB PS IT IT IT Runedump.

I do this rotation in unholy presence so I can dump the stuff as fast I can, and the fact that if I do get a hickup in my rotation for whatever reason (dodge or whatnot) it is less punishing to my rotation, plus the fact that I actually manage to rune dump my runic power in time before I start flooding it.

Im still testing, since I only just now got a 2nd hailstorm, wether or not its beneficial to run fast/fast instead of slow fast. I understand your frost strikes might be bigger with a slower weapon, im trying to find out wether the additional KM procs leading to more FS crits, more IT crits, more HB crits will make up for the fact that ill have lower FS damage.

The biggest downside I find to this is that by being in unholy presence I lose ofc the 15% dmg bonus and haste rating bring down spell haste GCD since (iirc) its capped at 1 sec at its fastest. The upside is that I have a lot more time to runedump, more KM procs, and I have more room for quickly addapting to the situation at hand due to a lower GCD.

Here is the link to my armory, just in case someone wants to know my gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory

If its set on dual hailstorm when I log out its from heroic dummy testing, I have a torment of the banished in MH normally.

Maybe one of you more experienced in the art of blood presence - 32/39 could try this out some time, and see what you think?

The macro will only cast Path of Frost or Death Strike if control+the hotkey is pressed.

Hey guys, I just want to ask a few things:

1. The macro that cancels Rime and casts HB-I'm assuming the Path of Frost and other stuff was just a all in one type of thing with no actual DPS meaning. In addition, was there ever any consensus about the actual practicality and benefit of this macro or is it still up for discussion? Obviously, when 3.0.8 comes, the macro will definitely be detrimental, but I'm not so sure currently. Perhaps this was said, but assuming you just use IT when Rime procs and dont do anything with the U rune, you're killing your rotation simply because it takes less than 10 seconds (the cooldown on the F rune youre using) to get back to where you need to use HB in your normal rotation (6 seconds to get back to that point I believe, maybe less depending on Haste affecting GCD). Instead of having things be back to back (either Death Coils or Blood Strikes) you end up putting them on either side of a Howling Blast since HB is a priority higher.

2. The unholy thread has a sort of ideal list of gear to get, kind of a best in slot for every slot. I'm wondering how a DW build's nature effects this ideal set of gear. Off the top of my head, I know the gear set that is mentioned there is specifically picked out and gemmed to just barely be over hit/exp cap and then focus on other stats, as well as getting 4 piece t7 bonus by default. I'm thinking that neither of these carry as much weight for DW, obviously because we don't benefit from 4 piece, but also (I think someone mentioned this earlier) that some people who are posting really nice WWS of patch and stuff like that seem to have a seemingly low amount of hit based on what we've been preaching as necessary. Evovi mentioned that in his post, but I don't think it got responded to:

Peace.

There has been some talk recently about the DPS difference between 1.6 speed and 1.5 speed weapons. I want to propose that the optimal DPS setup may come from one weapon of each speed.

Looking at Ren's WWS log, I noticed that his two same-speed weapons stay perfectly in sync throughout the whole Patchwerk fight, exactly as we'd expect*. This is potentially problematic for the following reason: We are not trying to maximize the total number of KM procs, but rather the density of KM procs across any given interval of time. Specifically, with two same-speed weapons, if both weapons proc KM, one proc is GUARANTEED to be wasted, while with two different-speed weapons, you have more of a chance of spreading procs out.

As it stands now, procs are already wasted. Ren had 85 melee crits and only gained KM 26 times (meaning he must have proc'ed KM while he already had the buff several times; this is statistically significant enough to show wasted procs are likely). With one 1.6 speed and one 1.5 speed weapon, there will be compression and rarefaction of swing times: times when the two weapon swings come close together, and times when they drift apart. This is enough for us to conclude that two different-speed weapons are strictly better than two same-speed weapons with respect to guaranteed proc losses due to simultaneous or near simultaneous procs.

A little math to illustrate the potential importance of this:

Assuming 30% crit and two same-speed weapons,

Double-KM procs will occur 2.25% of the time (0.15^2)

Total KM proc likelihood on a double swing is 27.75% (1-0.85^2)

So just over 8% of all KM procs are double procs and incur a guaranteed wasted proc (.0225/.2775)



With all of that said, as mentioned before, it's clear we are already overwriting KM procs pretty often. So how important this consideration is remains to be seen. I am thinking of ways to better model and explain it, and invite others to help out.

* Actually, they are several ms off for the first couple swings, but link up by the bottom of the first page.

Slower weapon means you may not get a KM as quickly as you would with a fast one when you've just used a KM proc.

Comparing a 1.5 and a 1.6 is pointless, the difference is just too minimal if you are prioritizing HB but with that said, if you don't prioritize HB you will be losing DPS unless HB has JUST been on CD.

So what I'm saying is with fast/fast there will always be wasted 'potential' procs but that's unavoidable and using slow/fast just outright makes you proc KM less.

For the macro. The path of frost and deathstrike are obvious just planted in for convenience. If you read the post Ren even stated that it's just the macro's he uses.

For rime macros there are pretty much just 2 types. Either you just plainly cancel freezing fog. Or you have it cancel depending on your RP.

But Grigori made a good post about that on page 12:

http://elitistjerks.com/1019407-post287.html

-------

As for the gear issue, its still a bit in debate. I think too many people are to obsessed with caps though.

I think not reaching the spellhit cap or the expertise cap isn't such a huge issue as people make it out to be.


Though this is true, I'm thinking you forget a big factor.

What IF we get less dual procs, can we still benefit from them ?
In a raid situation with fast weapons and haste my weapons might hit at 0.75 speed

Even though you wont get procs at the exact same second anymore, the chance for both weapons to get a proc in 1 swingtimer remains the same.
Since those swing times are within that 0.75 second, how much will we eventually benefit from 2 different weapon speeds ?

Let me put it this way:

Say i use 2 the same weaponspeeds with a 1.50 swingtimer.

My weapons both hit at second X.
Both proc, and 1 proc goes to waste.

Now i use 2 weapons with different weapon speeds with say a 1.50 and 1.60 swing timer.
The first weapon hits at second X the other weapon hits at second X+0.20.
They both proc again will i not waste 1 of the 2 KM procs this way ?

Unless it happens to be that I use up the KB in that extremely small window of 0.3 second, I dont't get any benefit from it. Of course using KM in that small window is a high possibility, and I'm not saying this doesn't provide any benefit at all. But we're talking extremely small window here that will provide only a very small benefit.

And maybe it IS something we have to consider when the option presents itself in the future, but i doubt it will have any impact that big that it will decide our weapon choices.

For those who haven't seen it, it looks like DW nerfs are on the table. Which makes sense, in beta blizzard had said that if there was any major discreptancy between DW and two-hand they would try to correct it. I'm curious if we'll see these changes in 3.0.8 or if it'll wait for 3.1.

It is worth noting that if you dual wield same speed weapons it is possible to get them out of sync. I believe there was some theories that it was either due to a haste mechanic or that if you start attacking with auto attack instead of a special that hits with both weapons you will see this. I think some testing should be done, because if you can easily get your weapons to unsync then your point is sort of lost.

One theory I heard was that parrying an attack would haste only the mainhand, not the offhand, and the two would get out of sync. Regardless, enhancement shaman did a lot of theorycrafting about synchronized weapon speeds a while back, and the basic conclusion was that the effect in game was always far less than the theorycrafting predicted. Until I see data suggesting otherwise, I think this is an ignorable issue.

Your math is right, but your reasoning is wrong. Sure, those double-procs are wasted. But we have tons of wasted procs anyway, and you have not demonstrated that the total number of wasted procs drops. In fact, it doesn't - the relevant question is how many chances to proc you get in the 1.3-3.0 seconds between frost abilities, and having weapons that are the same speed doesn't affect that at all. From the other direction, procs at the same time are always wasted, yes. But that's a curve - procs .1 seconds apart are usually wasted, procs .2 seconds apart are wasted slightly less often, etc - the total amount of waste is simply the probability that you get two procs in that 1.5 second period (more usually 3.0 with a good priority/rotation).

I'll do up a sim for this if you want, my reasoning may be a bit opaque :-\

This nerf Blizzard is thinking about is one KM proc per minute. They say this will nerf DW dps slightly, while uping 2h frost dps. However, I think it will nerf DW dps more than slightly (unless you are a 0.20.51spec) because I always have several KM procs a minute, not just one. KM procs are a big part of DW damage, and I don't know about you, but in my opinion, this is just more than a small nerf (reducing KM procs to a fraction of what they were before).

One KM proc per minute would nerf Killing Machine into oblivion. There's no way they'd nerf it that far.

I think he means "A proc per minute effect", not "A proc per minute" - i.e. change KM to be a PPM effect (say 3 PPM or something) rather than a flat % chance.

Long-time reader, first time poster here.

I've recently gone 32/39 and I've been very pleased with the results. I had been a career 2k-ish DPS. Admittedly, I probably wasn't very good at DPSing with a 2H build, but with the respec, my DPS has spiked up to about 3k and I get better with every raid.

But that's something you've all read before. So here's the point: I accept the logic of using 2 fast weapons to facilitate KM procs to fuel the DW DPS. However, if KM became a PPM mechanic, wouldn't that mean that a slow/fast would be better in the long run? You're no longer concerned with producing as many KM as possible, so might as well do damage with the MH. Following that logic through, wouldn't it be preferable to spec into Frost Strike to take advantage of that high top end?

I mean, all this is not going to matter for a while, but might as well head this off at the pass.

Once again, amazing information being shared in this thread. I'm looking for a bit of help to see why my DW DPS is so...modest.

Last night, I ran Naxx 10 for the first time, and my gear is definitely sub-par. I am using the Red Sword of Courage and the Fang of Truth. I have a few level 200 epics and blues, and still 4 or 5 green items. So, I realize I am still gearing up. However, my DPS was sitting around 2k last night. On Patch, it went up to about 2500, and on trash and the other bosses where there wasn't a ton of movement, I was sitting around 2k. I realize that it was my first raid there, I'm learning the encounters, etc. but I would think that if there are people out there getting close to 7k DPS with the 0/32/39 build, I should be around 4k DPS in my crap gear.

I actually went with a 0/31/40 build, gave up 1 point in merciless combat and 1 from crypt fever to get 2 pts in Unholy Aura. I feel that talent is just too valuable for the raid to give up, even though the benefit isn't 'tangible.'

My rotation is IT PS HB BS BS (dump - gargoyle), IT PS HB IT IT (dump - usually only 1 DC while gargoyle is up - i lost him a few times because I absent mindedly hit DC a couple of times while gargoyle was out). I am using a macro to cancel freezing fog. I did my best to make sure my ghoul was up, and I tried hard to stay on target, and to use IT, pestilence, and HB on aoe trash pulls.

There is certainly room for improvement in my rotations, and I'm still just learning to time everything properly and recover from a parry or a missed hit or something, but I really feel that my DPS should be higher. Am I doing something wrong?

Here is my armory if you're interested in taking a look and helping out with some advice. The World of Warcraft Armory

You are disgustingly undergeared. I suspect 80% of your DPS issues come from that alone. You also have almost no enchants, which is probably a symptom of having gear you plan on upgrading soon. Just buckle down and get some good crafted gear and enchantments. Most of us are running with between 50% and 80% more attack power than you have right now. Similarly, we don't have crit rates below 15% like you have. Obviously that will hurt your DPS a lot.

By the way, if you want to grab Unholy Aura (and it's worth it if no one else has it), you should take 2 points from Desecration. Don't take from Crypt Fever or Merciless Combat.

I think you are overestimating a bit.. I have almost full naxx/emblem gear and I generally hit 3.5-4k single target dps with an almost identcal rotation. 2k dps with your level of gear is actually pretty impressive imo.

As far as the talk about nerfs go, I think its coming one way or another. Gargoyle is being nurfed for sure, and I can definitely see them making KM PPM so that it benefits 2h and DW equally. I recall GC saying something along the lines of not wanting people using 2x fast weapons too. Some buffs to necrosis may be coming though, so thats something anyways.

At any rate it may be wise to pick up a good slow 1h for the future. Depending on what, if anything, they do to KM, chances are a slow MH will be the way to go.

i'm sorry if this has been answered, but i am currently not awake enough to go through the majority of the pages for the answer... lol I recently specced to DW and have been loving it so far, most of our raiding DK's have specced this as well, currently we are trying to stack hit to make sure we get the most out of the spec... my question is whats a good Hit rating to have for DW should i try to max it out? or is there a certain number that's kinda the accepted norm, i'm currently at 429. I was at 275 last time i ran a raid and i pulled out almost 4k on some 25 man bosses and never went below 3.2k on 10man stuff. any suggestions?

All I have is 8% from gear and the 3% from Nerves of Cold Steel to = 11% hit I find that just fine for raids, that’s all you need for you yellow hits not to miss but if you want your white not to miss you need some like 24% or so, not 100% on the number. So the more hit you have the less your white hits should miss and I see that as a dps increase, so more hit should not hunt as long as your other stats don’t take a hit.