Dual Wield Builds - Page 37

EwokChilli · 01/06/09, 12:53 PM

One of the primary reasons why there are people with 7k dps is because they're using army o dead and gargoyle (twice) and they have a LOT of AP and crit. I'm sure they're also using consumables and taking advantage of heroism and the like. If you sync up enough raid buffs and synergies, then numbers get really big really fast. It isn't a linear curve. A 10% increase when you do 4k dps is a lot more than a 20% increase if you do 1.5k dps. It's an issue of scale.

drickz · 01/06/09, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Zelegith

i'm sorry if this has been answered, but i am currently not awake enough to go through the majority of the pages for the answer... lol I recently specced to DW and have been loving it so far, most of our raiding DK's have specced this as well, currently we are trying to stack hit to make sure we get the most out of the spec... my question is whats a good Hit rating to have for DW should i try to max it out? or is there a certain number that's kinda the accepted norm, i'm currently at 429. I was at 275 last time i ran a raid and i pulled out almost 4k on some 25 man bosses and never went below 3.2k on 10man stuff. any suggestions?

Just read the thread you will answer your question and learn much more.

kurokaze · 01/06/09, 1:19 PM

Take this with a grain of salt as my spreadsheet likely has several errors still that may affect these results.

Here's the results of plugging in identical stats (about equivalent to my current armory, only with much more haste due to a bug I just squashed) with a variety of mainhand speeds and a 31/40 build. Offhand was Grasscutter at 1.6 speed (hasted to 1.13).

MH Speed	Hasted MH	DPS
1.3	0.92	5779.53
1.4	0.99	5754.27
1.5	1.06	5748.2
1.6	1.13	5725.5
1.7	1.2	5708.18
1.8	1.27	5721.15
1.9	1.34	5711.45
2.0	1.41	5685.85
2.1	1.48	5706.39
2.2	1.55	5696.86
2.3	1.63	5686.68
2.4	1.7	5698.52
2.5	1.77	5664.3
2.6	1.84	5638.2
2.7	1.91	5646.81
2.8	1.98	5682.4

Make of this what you will. Clearly there are several 'sweet spots' exhibited, but also a significant dip at the 1.7/1.6 rather than the 1.6/1.6 as one would expect. Unfortunately the numbers aren't particularly realistic due to the bug (I was calculating haste rating with level 70 values for some reason); I'll run some more with the fixed version when I can.

I'll probably post the spreadsheet later today; I just want to add in more gear choices and such trivialities.

Janraea · 01/06/09, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Corantu

So here's the point: I accept the logic of using 2 fast weapons to facilitate KM procs to fuel the DW DPS. However, if KM became a PPM mechanic, wouldn't that mean that a slow/fast would be better in the long run? You're no longer concerned with producing as many KM as possible, so might as well do damage with the MH. Following that logic through, wouldn't it be preferable to spec into Frost Strike to take advantage of that high top end?

I mean, all this is not going to matter for a while, but might as well head this off at the pass.

There's no point in discussing this right now. The benefits of a slow mainhand could easily be outweighed by the fast-fast bonus to BCB unless they change that too. In other words, A slow MH only benefits a couple of your attacks, and not all that much - we're talking a 20-40 dps difference. Certainly not worth speccing around.

Originally Posted by EwokChilli

One of the primary reasons why there are people with 7k dps is because they're using army o dead and gargoyle (twice) and they have a LOT of AP and crit. I'm sure they're also using consumables and taking advantage of heroism and the like. If you sync up enough raid buffs and synergies, then numbers get really big really fast. It isn't a linear curve. A 10% increase when you do 4k dps is a lot more than a 20% increase if you do 1.5k dps. It's an issue of scale.

The AOD numbers aren't relevant, none of the high dps WWS reports I've seen actually included them (WWS doesn't handle multiple pets very well). Every raider in here is using consumeables and 'taking advantage of' heroism/Bloodlust, it would be weird to consider raiders that don't buff or use cooldowns. The 7k+ numbers you see are just a side effect of killing bosses VERY fast - all the durations are worth twice as much for them as for you because the boss dies twice as fast. Raid synergies do not explain why DW dks have such drastically higher dps than do most other classes/specs, it's just that they have more cds and one overpowered talent (KM).

Originally Posted by the_mort

they want to change the mechanic to PPM.

I sure hope they use the ppm mechanic that responds to haste, like the Ret one. The incoming KM nerf is really pretty just - that one talent affected my dps by almost 20%, which is *way* over budget. If they hold themselves to only nerfing the unusually powerful talents (KM and gargoyle), our dps might end up alright still.

One possibility that I'm not sure about - if they mean to change it to a PPM that is not dependent on crit, we may see a *drastic* reduction in the value of agility, and a significant one for crit rating. If they use a haste-reactive ppm, haste rating might even become decent.

I actually think people are exaggerating the impact of gargoyle a little. On a WWS, when you see that high number it makes you feel like it's a big deal, but you're giving up *11* DCs to get that - in a 3 minute fight, that's 250 dps you're losing to gain around 650 dps. It may show up in your WWS as being 12-15% of total damage, but it's really closer to a 6-7% gain if you subtract the lost DCs and stop killing bosses in a minute thirty. I suspect that making it calculate your AP on the fly instead of at cast would be enough nerf on its own - a single talent point adding 5% to your damage on fights with low AOE doesn't seem out of line.

Orlgin · 01/06/09, 1:52 PM

A PPM system works best with slow weapons and considering the best setup is fast/fast, that would hurt us more than you'd suspect. It would, at least, make specs like 0/44/27 that use a slow main-hand slightly better as the slow main-hand would generate more Killing Machine procs than a fast one.

The Gargoyle nerf is the one to fear. Every single viable spec now uses the gargoyle and nerfing it would directly nerf every DPS Death Knight. 0/20/51 would get the biggest hit as it produces the most powerful gargoyles at this time because Rage of Rivendare gives it an extra 10% boost.

For those who like the 0/20/51 build, I suggest cutting one point from Night of the Dead for a second point in Wandering Plague. It's quite good and one point should be sufficient once the changes hit and the Ghoul gets the extra stamina from the Glyph.

Foxx2405 · 01/06/09, 2:00 PM

Once again, amazing information being shared in this thread. I'm looking for a bit of help to see why my DW DPS is so...modest.

Last night, I ran Naxx 10 for the first time, and my gear is definitely sub-par. I am using the Red Sword of Courage and the Fang of Truth. I have a few level 200 epics and blues, and still 4 or 5 green items. So, I realize I am still gearing up. However, my DPS was sitting around 2k last night. On Patch, it went up to about 2500, and on trash and the other bosses where there wasn't a ton of movement, I was sitting around 2k. I realize that it was my first raid there, I'm learning the encounters, etc. but I would think that if there are people out there getting close to 7k DPS with the 0/32/39 build, I should be around 4k DPS in my crap gear.

I actually went with a 0/31/40 build, gave up 1 point in merciless combat and 1 from crypt fever to get 2 pts in Unholy Aura. I feel that talent is just too valuable for the raid to give up, even though the benefit isn't 'tangible.'

My rotation is IT PS HB BS BS (dump - gargoyle), IT PS HB IT IT (dump - usually only 1 DC while gargoyle is up - i lost him a few times because I absent mindedly hit DC a couple of times while gargoyle was out). I am using a macro to cancel freezing fog. I did my best to make sure my ghoul was up, and I tried hard to stay on target, and to use IT, pestilence, and HB on aoe trash pulls.

There is certainly room for improvement in my rotations, and I'm still just learning to time everything properly and recover from a parry or a missed hit or something, but I really feel that my DPS should be higher. Am I doing something wrong?

Here is my armory if you're interested in taking a look and helping out with some advice. The World of Warcraft Armory

Those 7k dps marks are nothing you can compare with though.

1. They have top of the line gear usually
2. They do 25 mans, the difference between 10 and 25 man is easily 2-3k dps, purely due to buffs.
3. They get lucky, yes, crits, procs.
4. They superbuff the Gargoyle, trinket procs before they summon, bloodlust when its up.

All those factors account for all that dps difference.

Originally Posted by Broseph

To use your own example, Foxx, with a GCD of 1.4 sec (assuming some haste from gear, and a mostly-spell rotation), there's a 14% chance that two procs 0.2 seconds away from each other will be separated by a spell or strike. That isn't as microscopic a possibility as you might think. And the time between swings will grow and shrink over the course of the fight. Ren was swinging about once a second -- there would be times with a 1.6/1.5 setup when swings would come about 0.5 sec apart, which gives a 36% chance of being separated by a swing.

Ok thats true,

But lets merge those numbers

2.25% chance to get 2 KM procs on both weapons times the 36% your swings are separated enough for a hit.

That is 0.81% chance that you have a window of opportunity to use for that KM.

Add on top of that the question whether or not your skill just happens to be on a GCD. With a 1 sec GCD and the window being 0.5 seconds thats about 50% chance

Lowers it to 0.40% chance to use that window.

I think you are right that it IS an advantage, and it definitely works out that way. However the question is:

1. Is it noticeable of a difference ?
2. How much dps would it increase, and compare it to the dps you lose by switching to a slower weapon. (its only 0.1 sec but still)

Janraea · 01/06/09, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Orlgin

A PPM system works best with slow weapons and considering the best setup is fast/fast, that would hurt us more than you'd suspect. It would, at least, make specs like 0/44/27 that use a slow main-hand slightly better as the slow main-hand would generate more Killing Machine procs than a fast one.

The Gargoyle nerf is the one to fear. Every single viable spec now uses the gargoyle and nerfing it would directly nerf every DPS Death Knight. 0/20/51 would get the biggest hit as it produces the most powerful gargoyles at this time because Rage of Rivendare gives it an extra 10% boost.

A PPM system works equally well with all weapons. The thing your thinking of is a ppm that triggers off of white damage *and strikes* - ours is white damage only. If it triggered off strikes too, slow/fast would be the only reasonable pairing. 'The best setup is fast/fast' only *because* of KM, so if KM started working better with slow/fast, everyone would switch. (If it starts proccing off of strikes though, we'll all be 44/27).

44/27 does not use a slow mainhand at the moment. Fast/fast is *even more important* for 44/27, as they can use more KM procs than any other spec - almost every proc is used. The loss to FS damage is fairly minimal compared to the extra crits.

A gargoyle nerf cannot reduce our net dps by more than about 6% (8% if you kill bosses really fast), even if they just removed the talent. I suspect they're going to make it about as good as DRW, but killable (it's possible they'll nerf it into oblivion if they don't understand RP generation/use very well.)

Originally Posted by fox2405

But lets merge those numbers
2.25% chance to get 2 KM procs on both weapons times the 36% your swings are separated enough for a hit.
That is 0.81% chance that you have a window of opportunity to use for that KM.
Add on top of that the question whether or not your skill just happens to be on a GCD. With a 1 sec GCD and the window being 0.5 seconds thats about 50% chance
Lowers it to 0.40% chance to use that window.
I think you are right that it IS an advantage, and it definitely works out that way.

Your math is ... wrong. You'd have to calculate that probability for *each possible interval between swings* and add them all up, if you wanted a correct answer that way. I'll make a sim and come back.

tedv · 01/06/09, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I actually think people are exaggerating the impact of gargoyle a little. On a WWS, when you see that high number it makes you feel like it's a big deal, but you're giving up *11* DCs to get that - in a 3 minute fight, that's 250 dps you're losing to gain around 650 dps. It may show up in your WWS as being 12-15% of total damage, but it's really closer to a 6-7% gain if you subtract the lost DCs and stop killing bosses in a minute thirty. I suspect that making it calculate your AP on the fly instead of at cast would be enough nerf on its own - a single talent point adding 5% to your damage on fights with low AOE doesn't seem out of line.

I agree that Gargoyle is over the top (when stacked with bloodlust and trinket procs), but because of the high cost of death coils not cast, it's very sensitive to nerfing. For example, consider this math:

Assuming perfect gargoyle uptime, the Gargoyle costs 50 RP + 50 seconds * 8 RP/sec = 450 runic power. This could otherwise be spent on 11.25 death coils. Glancing at a WWS, we get these damage values:

Death Coil: 4095 per hit
Death Coil Opportunity Cost: 11.25 * 4095 = 46069
Gargoyle: 118,291 damage over 60 seconds (with lust and trinkets)
Net damage: 118291 - 46069 = 72222
Net DPS per 3 minutes: 72222 / 180 = 400 DPS

So given that Ren posted he did 6812 DPS (since WWS was bugged and not counting all pets), the gargoyle was 5.8% of his damage. But what happens if the gargoyle has his damage cut by a third?

Gargoyle: 78861
Net damage: 78861 - 46069 = 32792
Net DPS per 3 minutes: 180 DPS

This would be 180 / 6592 = 2.7%. So a one third reduction in gargoyle damage will reduce the net effectiveness of the talent by over half. Given the gargoyle's propensity to die randomly, and the problem of timing it with bloodlusts and other procs, this would be pretty lackluster. So I'm not afraid of the gargoyle getting nerfed, but I am concerned it will be nerfed too much.

godzirra · 01/06/09, 2:20 PM

Hello all.

I've been playing 0/32/39 now for about a week and I've been pleasantly surprised by the DPS increase I've had from the standard Unholy 2h build. That being said, I've seen quite a few different stat weights for 32/39 and I'm not sure which I should be using.

Does anyone have any definitive data or suggestions on the different weights listed for this spec, or is there some sort of easy to use gear checklist those of us that aren't hardcore theorycrafters can use? I've tried out a few of the sheets I've seen and haven't had much luck.

Here's my armory

Also, I managed to get 3400 dps on patchwerk 10 man. Is this about right, or should I be doing more? This is our WWS for 10 man patchwerk.

Thanks!

Zolak · 01/06/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

You are disgustingly undergeared. I suspect 80% of your DPS issues come from that alone. You also have almost no enchants, which is probably a symptom of having gear you plan on upgrading soon. Just buckle down and get some good crafted gear and enchantments. Most of us are running with between 50% and 80% more attack power than you have right now. Similarly, we don't have crit rates below 15% like you have. Obviously that will hurt your DPS a lot.

By the way, if you want to grab Unholy Aura (and it's worth it if no one else has it), you should take 2 points from Desecration. Don't take from Crypt Fever or Merciless Combat.

Thanks for the info. I hope you managed to keep your breakfast down after looking at my armory. That's reassuring that it's mostly gear and not a glaring error on my part. I realize my gear is trash, and you've correctly pointed out that none of my stuff is enchanted. I actually picked up 5 of the epics I'm wearing last night, so haven't had a chance to do much yet. I'll work on gearing up, but I am very relieved to hear that it's my gear that's holding me back, rather than lack of skill.

And I'll make those talent changes too. Good idea.

Thanks again.

PhoenixVynna · 01/06/09, 2:45 PM

The stat values I use, feel free to argue/disregard, theyre working for me pretty well...

1 ap 1.00 1 crit 1.07
1 hit 1.67 1 STR 2.31
1 Exp 0.91 1 arpen 0.28
1 Haste 0.49 1 Armor 0.03
1 Agility 0.59 Wpn DPS 6.11
Meta Gem 45.33 - assuming chaotic skyflare

This is for 12/32/27 spec and is kinda specific to my gear; you can round em off to generalize them. I'm sure 32/39 wouldnt be much off, minus the armor value anyway. You'd also have to take .06 off agility.

kurokaze · 01/06/09, 2:55 PM

Here's the stat values my spreadsheet spits out for 31/40 at approximately my gear level. Again, very early and potentially unreliable data, but they seem to match the observations made regarding Ren's WWS and the extreme relative value of attack power.

Note that hit and expertise are slightly low; the spreadsheet currently assumes diseases apply whenever one attempts a disease-applying ability. Modeling the rotation pushback caused by a disease miss is pretty much impossible without a true simulator so I'm not too worried about it... though in the future I will probably set it to use a 'dumb rotation' that just pushes on when one misses without assuming the disease applied, and the dps loss this causes should at least compensate somewhat. And when/if I code in a priority system that might solve it entirely.

Stat	AP Equiv
STR	3.157
AGI	0.333
AP	1.000
Crit	0.570
Hit (at zero)	0.958
Hit (at yellow hitcap)	0.738
Hit (at spell hitcap)	0.481
Exp	0.702
ArPen	0.388
Haste	1.340

Edit: Strength vs. AP seems slightly off, but I think that's probably the ghoul. AP does nothing for ghoul, right, just strength? It's pretty obvious that the ghoul gets direct strength bonus from the wording of the glyph and talent (and its character sheet), and I doubt it double dips with an AP contribution as well.

Janraea · 01/06/09, 3:08 PM

As promised, I made a little sim for KM procs (in python). I found the results of a single sim to have high variability, so I built it to do a number of them and average the results - I think the average of 30 runs is sufficient.

Results first:

With the 'same speed' sim using weapon speeds of 1.33 and 1.33 and the 'different speed' sim using 1.33 and 1.42, the 'same speed' won handily, because its mh is slightly faster - the non-synchronized swing timers did not affect the result at all (as I expected). The posted results are the average of 30 sims of length 1000 seconds each (two sets of 30, one for each weapon speed pair)

If someone will get back to me with better numbers to use for each of the variables, I'll rerun it with a longer duration. If someone wants to challenge my assumption of a frost ability at regular intervals, I can do one that follows a real rotation if you'll give that to me instead - it might affect the results, but probably not by much.

Originally Posted by simulation

Average for same speed: 109
or 6.54 procs per minute

Average for different speed: 99
or 5.94 procs per minute

from random import random

def mod(a,b):
  if a/float(b) == int(a/float(b)):
    return 1
  else:
    return 0

def iscrit(is_hit, crit_chance):
  if is_hit == 0: return 0
  if random() <= crit_chance:
    return 1
  else:
    return 0

def isproc(is_crit):
  if is_crit == 0: return 0
  if random() >= .5:
    return 1
  else:
    return 0

def dorun(mhspeed, ohspeed,critchance,frostinterval,duration):
  times = [x/100.0 for x in range(0,100*duration)]
  mhswings = [mod(i,mhspeed) for i in times]
  mhcrits = [iscrit(i,critchance) for i in mhswings]
  mhprocs = [isproc(i) for i in mhcrits]
  ohswings = [mod(i,ohspeed) for i in times]
  ohcrits = [iscrit(i,critchance) for i in ohswings]
  ohprocs = [isproc(i) for i in ohcrits]
  frostuses = [mod(i,frostinterval) for i in times]

  totalprocs = sum(ohprocs) + sum(mhprocs)

  usedprocs = 0
  km = 0
  for t in times:
    if frostuses[int(100*t)] == 1 and km == 1:
      usedprocs += 1
      km = 0
    if mhprocs[int(100*t)] or ohprocs[int(100*t)]:
      km = 1
  return (totalprocs, usedprocs)

numtests = 30
duration = 1000

results_twin = [dorun(1.33,1.33,.26,2.98,duration) for i in range(0,numtests)]
results_diff = [dorun(1.39,1.33,.26,2.98,duration) for i in range(0,numtests)]

meantwin = sum([b for (a,b) in results_twin]) / numtests
print("\n\nAverage for same speed: %s" % meantwin)
print("or %s procs per minute" % (60.0 * meantwin / float(duration)))

meandiff= sum([b for (a,b) in results_diff]) / numtests
print("\n\nAverage for different speed: %s" % meandiff)
print("or %s procs per minute" % (60.0 * meandiff / float(duration)))

If anyone wants me to run the code with their values (as opposed to challenging my math or assumptions), please PM me the request and I'll edit it into this post, instead of cluttering the thread.

Epicness · 01/06/09, 4:43 PM

Hi, I have another question. Do spells scale better with gear depending on the higher the stat? For example, jumping from 2k to around 2.4K AP, I only saw dps numbers go up by around 600. Now, I'm only managing to do around 2.6k dps in 25mans. What I'm trying to say is, is the jump from 2.4k to 3k AP going to make a bigger difference than the jump from 2k to 2.4k AP? Because most of you gusy are doing over 4k dps on 25mans, and if thats the case it would seem like spells scale more with the more AP you have. Is this correct?

Broseph · 01/06/09, 4:47 PM

I find this very interesting. My intuition, of course, is that spreading out procs would yield more usable procs, but this seems to prove me wrong. Small question, and I might be reading the code wrong. Do you report total procs or procs used? We'd be interested in procs used, no?

It seems to me results_twin returns (totalprocs, usedprocs) and then you sum totalprocs in meantwin's definition (and of course we'd expect this to be higher for the same speed setup).

Specifically, isn't the mean number of used procs:

meantwin = sum([b for (a,b) in results_twin]) / numtests

Janraea · 01/06/09, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Broseph

I find this very interesting. My intuition, of course, is that spreading out procs would yield more usable procs, but this seems to prove me wrong. Small question, and I might be reading the code wrong. Do you report total procs or procs used? We'd be interested in procs used, no?

It seems to me results_twin returns (totalprocs, usedprocs) and then you sum totalprocs in meantwin's definition (and of course we'd expect this to be higher for the same speed setup).

Specifically, isn't the mean number of used procs:

meantwin = sum([b for (a,b) in results_twin]) / numtests

>.< You caught a copied typo, you're absolutely right - I fudged the results when I rewrote it into a presentable form. The ratios are the same though - I've corrected the code, and replaced the results section, but the conclusions are the same (with lower numbers).

Your intuition is correct, in a sense. I did another run with slightly modified code, comparing two 1.33 speed weapons that strike simultaneously to two that strike at different times (same speeds) and got the following results:

Originally Posted by simulation

Average for simult: 109
or 6.54 procs per minute

Average for offset: 115
or 6.9 procs per minute
______________________
Average for simult: 106
or 6.36 procs per minute

Average for offset: 112
or 6.72 procs per minute

So having your weapons not strike at the same time is worth about a third of a ppm. Having them asynchronous should be worth about half that, or a sixth of a proc per minute. That's not insignificant, it's just dwarfed by the gains of having a slightly faster weapon (taking a 1.6 weapon to a 1.5 weapon prehaste is worth nearly a whole ppm.)

Technically speaking, it *is* possible to intentionally get them synchronized and not simultaneous via parry-hasting, but does anyone know any other means to do that? Is there a way to reset the swing timer on just one weapon while in combat?

Leaflock · 01/06/09, 5:04 PM

@Janraea: I think your reasoning is sound. "Wasting procs" sounds bad, but the only probability that matters to your dps is the chance of Killing Machine being up when you use a frost ability. If you follow a rotation like Ren, you have several seconds where Killing Machine can just sit waiting to be used while you dump RP on DC.

Originally Posted by Orlgin

Every single viable spec now uses the gargoyle and nerfing it would directly nerf every DPS Death Knight.

That's not really true. 2h Frost doesn't use Gargoyle, and neither does the 51/13/7 2h Blood spec (which many consider superior to the spec with gargoyle). Both are completely viable in raids and put up respectable numbers.

My guess as to a Gargoyle nerf would be simply shortening its maximum duration-- that way you decrease the max dps gain you can get from it, but it would still be a worthwhile use of RP over DC whenever it's available.

Foxx2405 · 01/06/09, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

Your math is ... wrong. You'd have to calculate that probability for *each possible interval between swings* and add them all up, if you wanted a correct answer that way. I'll make a sim and come back.

Ah ok that might be true.

But that doesn't take away that the point still stands.

The chance for AND your weapons to be totally off sync AND KM to proc on both weapons AND for your abilities to not be on GCD

Is so tremendously small (which is the only point i tried to make, the math could be off by miles its about the thought behind them), that it probably doesn't make any difference.

Which i think your simulator showed.

-------

As for the gargoyle issue. I agree that i think a lot of people are overreacting.

All people see is that a single button can do 1500-2000 dps. What they fail to see is that a DK only has this button up for 1/3th of the time, and that by pressing that button he forfeits ~10 Deathcoils.

Trimm · 01/06/09, 5:16 PM

This may be a little off topic, but I'm looking for some clarification on what fights people using AotD on? I read earlier they do not taunt raid bosses? What kind of dps does a full-duration pack of ghouls pull, say on Patch?

Janraea · 01/06/09, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Trimm

This may be a little off topic, but I'm looking for some clarification on what fights people using AotD on? I read earlier they do not taunt raid bosses? What kind of dps does a full-duration pack of ghouls pull, say on Patch?

Don't use them on Kel, I wiped the melee.

Aram · 01/06/09, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Trimm

This may be a little off topic, but I'm looking for some clarification on what fights people using AotD on? I read earlier they do not taunt raid bosses? What kind of dps does a full-duration pack of ghouls pull, say on Patch?

I've used them on Instructor, 4H, Patchwerk. They do not taunt raid bosses as far as I can tell. For me they provide a temporary increase in DPS of 1.4-1.5k. (I wasn't able to maintain the DPS after they went away)

methods · 01/06/09, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by kurokaze

Here's the stat values my spreadsheet spits out for 31/40 at approximately my gear level. ...snip

Stat	AP Equiv
STR	3.157
AGI	0.333
AP	1.000
Crit	0.570
Hit (at zero)	0.958
Hit (at yellow hitcap)	0.738
Hit (at spell hitcap)	0.481
Exp	0.702
ArPen	0.388
Haste	1.340

...snip

Stat	APE
STR	2.71
AGI	0.59
AP	1.000
Crit	0.88
Hit (before 8%)	3.07
Hit (after 8%)	2.95
Hit (after spell cap)	0.85
Exp	1.15
ArPen	0.63
Haste	0.93

My values for 0/32/39 with a nearly complete KM equation (thanks to Hidden) and delay in rotation for misses/dodges.
Str and Haste are including Ghoul scaling (before glyph)

This spec really makes use of Virulence so I'd say there is no contest on whether to max it out. It's the E-peen variety so it also includes Desecration assuming static or low movement.

Disclaimer: This is all, yet again, untested theory-craft (blah blah blah grain of salt).

Outkast661 · 01/06/09, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ren

These are my IT and HB macros. If you want to use them, choose the ? icon.

#showtooltip
/cancelaura Freezing Fog
/startattack
/cast [mod:ctrl] Path of Frost; Icy Touch

#showtooltip [mod:ctrl] Death Strike; Howling Blast
/cancelaura Freezing Fog
/startattack
/cast [mod:ctrl] Death Strike; Howling Blast
/cast Rune Strike

/cancelaura Freezing Fog just removes the buff Rime gives you when it procs, making the IT or HB cost runes instead of nothing (which can delay your rotation).

Ren, Do you have to add the #showtooltip and [mod:ctrl] to these macro's? If so, what do those do for them? I don't mess with macro's too much.

Ilmatar · 01/06/09, 5:48 PM

You don't need to put arguments on #showtooltip for these uses. It will automatically switch the icon when CTRL is pressed. If you wanted to do something like:

#showtooltip Spell_B
/cast Spell_A
/cast Spell_B

That is when putting arguments on #showtooltip really helps. Otherwise, it will display the icon of the first spell it can find to cast at the time. (Respecting mod keys etc)

Outkast661 · 01/06/09, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ilmatar

You don't need to put arguments on #showtooltip for these uses. It will automatically switch the icon when CTRL is pressed. If you wanted to do something like:

#showtooltip Spell_B
/cast Spell_A
/cast Spell_B

That is when putting arguments on #showtooltip really helps. Otherwise, it will display the icon of the first spell it can find to cast at the time. (Respecting mod keys etc)

So then,
/cancelaura Frezzing Fog
/startattack
/cast Howling Blast or Icy Touch

will work fine?