Currently I am DWing Avool's Sword of Jin and Grasscutter. I am starting to run 25 man Naxx and was looking at weapon upgrades. I saw earlier in this thread that 2x Hailstorms is best, and from my reading, is due to the high AP on the weapon. My question is with my current two weapons would Widow's Fury from heroic Faerlina and/or Silent Crusade be any any upgrade to me? I am noticing not much of our dmg comes from white dmg, so is it safe to assume that even though the dps is highers on these 2 swords that the AP loss or going from F/F to S/F would lower my dps rather than increase?
There's nothing with strength on it unless you take something with a defensive stat as well. And no, you really don't want a slow weapon at all. The higher dps on the weapon plus slighly better BS/PS doesn't make up the loss in KM procs.
After seeing the math on Gargoyle it is quite surprising that Blizz stated it will be nerfing it. After checking around though, it seems the major problem with gargoyle is coming from the PvP community.
I looked at your stats and you only have about 300 AP and 10% more crit than me, yet I only manage to do 2.7k dps on 25man Patchwerk. Can 300AP and 10% crit make that much more of a difference of 2.1k dps on Patchwerk? If not, then what am I doing wrong?
Keep in mind, theres no strength totem or Horny winter in that SS, so there's some more AP there. 10% crit is a HUGE amount. Coincidentally, both of my trinkets are crit stacked, which at first I thought wasn't as strong as say, 2 AP trinkets, but I think for this spec a lot of us are undervaluing crit.
Also, I notice on some of the insane WWSs that people are getting higher % numbers out of their IT than myself. I'm not glyphed for it like some others tend to be either, so I dont know why I would be doing a lot less (more than 10% from glyph)
After seeing the math on Gargoyle it is quite surprising that Blizz stated it will be nerfing it. After checking around though, it seems the major problem with gargoyle is coming from the PvP community.
Honestly, swapping it with the unholy 51 pointer would not be a bad move. Gargoyle is a significant dps gain, and UB is a fairly small one in single target situations even *after* the coming patch. I guess they don't want the unholy and blood 51 point talents to be that similar though..
Disclaimer: spreadsheet is in early stages, grain of salt applies.
furiousmike:
Chaotic Skyflare comes out to about a 0.76% increase in dps or equivalent to 61.2 attack power. This includes the crit rating boost but not the loss due to using two blue gems.
Gaqus:
I don't have the code for the rotation that uses Death Coil when Killing Machine procs and Frost Strike when it isn't up yet, but if you just allow Frost Strike to eat procs, using it becomes a dps loss even with a 2.8 weapon. Note that Unbreakable Armor may be an excellent place to place the extra point rather than into something marginal in Unholy like Epidemic or Virulence. Assuming realistic but perhaps suboptimal play - no blood tap use without UA but macroing UA to blood tap when taking it, the main justification for which being that you don't lose a GCD by doing so but do by using blood tap to IT - UA becomes a 1.74% dps increase, on the level of a point of Black Ice or Impurity. Realistically it's probably half that with optimal play, making it roughly equivalent to Desecration or Guile of Gorefiend.
Regarding Annihilation versus RPM, it's purely a playstyle choice - if you find yourself capping RP without RPM often, you're probably better off taking it; if you don't it's useless. However, there is pretty much no point in taking the full three, since two is enough for a triple DC or whatnot. Hmm... that said, I actually found a dps loss by allowing the rotation to DC three times when RP allowed, so perhaps RPM is not so useful as it seems. Either way, one point in Annihilation (or Deathchill or Lichborne or Icy Reach) and two points in RPM makes much more sense than three points in RPM. The remaining two are up to preference, with annihilation being the 'optimal' or epeen-maxing option.
All this said, I don't see 44/27 or variants outdamaging 32/39 or variants this or next patch except perhaps on trash/heroics (I'm playing around with 44/27 right now and noticed an increase on aoe but a decrease on single).
gorfiend252:
With roughly optimal gear aside from the weapons you listed (haven't juggled around the hit to the 8% area yet) Widow's Fury is a 0.52% or 41.62 APE gain, while Silent Crusader is a 0.75% or 59.72 APE loss. This happens to be with hit over yellow cap and under spell cap.
Stein:
I haven't calculated it because with weapon speed differences it seems that weapon upgrades should be each looked at individually with the spreadsheet. I can run a quickie number though.
Upgrading Last Laugh by 1dps in the mainhand gives a 0.04% or 2.99 APE increase. Upgrading the offhand gives a 0.02% or 1.25 APE increase.
I don't have the code for the rotation that uses Death Coil when Killing Machine procs and Frost Strike when it isn't up yet, but if you just allow Frost Strike to eat procs, using it becomes a dps loss even with a 2.8 weapon. Note that Unbreakable Armor may be an excellent place to place the extra point rather than into something marginal in Unholy like Epidemic or Virulence. Assuming realistic but perhaps suboptimal play - no blood tap use without UA but macroing UA to blood tap when taking it, the main justification for which being that you don't lose a GCD by doing so but do by using blood tap to IT - UA becomes a 1.74% dps increase, on the level of a point of Black Ice or Impurity. Realistically it's probably half that with optimal play, making it roughly equivalent to Desecration or Guile of Gorefiend.
Regarding Annihilation versus RPM, it's purely a playstyle choice - if you find yourself capping RP without RPM often, you're probably better off taking it; if you don't it's useless. However, there is pretty much no point in taking the full three, since two is enough for a triple DC or whatnot. Hmm... that said, I actually found a dps loss by allowing the rotation to DC three times when RP allowed, so perhaps RPM is not so useful as it seems. Either way, one point in Annihilation (or Deathchill or Lichborne or Icy Reach) and two points in RPM makes much more sense than three points in RPM. The remaining two are up to preference, with annihilation being the 'optimal' or epeen-maxing option.
All this said, I don't see 44/27 or variants outdamaging 32/39 or variants this or next patch except perhaps on trash/heroics (I'm playing around with 44/27 right now and noticed an increase on aoe but a decrease on single).
Thanks a lot for your feedback. It certainly helped me a lot - and you are obviously correct about the RPM vs Annihilation. If I can ask another quick question, it seems to me most people rely on 32/39 for the best dps. Is this primarily because of Crypt Fever? Because I just can't seem to get how that spec can do more damage(didn't work well for me either).
Hey guys - I've read everything on this thread start to finish and had a couple of things:
Originally Posted by Kelavis
After seeing the math on Gargoyle it is quite surprising that Blizz stated it will be nerfing it. After checking around though, it seems the major problem with gargoyle is coming from the PvP community.
All they need to do is make the garg scale off of your base, unbuffed AP/haste value (and not current when casted) and the garg will scale just fine without making it ridiculously overpowered.
The only other option is to change the coefficient, but I doubt that they'll do that based on the ability to proc nearly 2k AP in trinkets alone - it makes the garg horribly underpowered if people aren't using AP proc trinks (if the coeff is indeed changed).
Originally Posted by Infectus
From the latest PTR build:
Blood Caked Blade: Now does the proper damage amount when triggered by an off-hand weapon.
This just made Fast/Fast a staple. Now I just need another hailstorm...
Oh and Ren:
I've looked at your gear, and your unbuffed AP is insane. I'm going to (hopefully) grab a screener of a patchwerk fight this evening and see where I stand. Using just the pet and myself, I'm hitting 2.9k on the dummy using a priority rotation.
Being 5/5 t7.5 is nice, but I'm about to (unfortunately) start the grind on BS/JC once I have all of my materials mined to make it.
Do you guys as a community see anything on my armory that's like an ultra-scathing need to have switched out? From what I've seen, I've got best in slot for all but the belt, helm, and bracers. I know the boots have a lot of hit on them, but there's also a lot of str.
I've gotta buy the badge sigil until the patch comes out and I can get the one for IT.
Also, and I don't know if this has been really visited. IT glyph (currently) vs. PS or BS glyphs - anyone done some honest theorycrafting to see if it's worth pulling the IT glyph until post patch for one of the others? I'm not really convinced it's a DPS nerf.
Reason being if you're using a priority system, the extra RP is awesome for extra coils, and you can use a DC every rotation when garg is up, so long as you're cancelling rime (which I don't do, priority system loves extra ITs). My priority has (thus far) been HB, IT (unless full RP), coil, PS(dot uptime), BS after the initial dots have been placed.
Pay no mind to my spec (as of 12:48PM EST 1/7/09) - it's something I was toying around with for PVP and I fat fingered some talent points.
Thank you for the input! I would stick with 2 Hailstorms but my guild does not run Malygos much (due to the lack of interest in phase 3) so I will not be getting them any time soon.
@Kurokaze
You mentioned Widow's Fury would be a APE increase. Im not sure if this helps but my current stats are 2893 AP, 365 hit rating as a Draenei, and 21.84 crit unbuffed with Avools and Grasscutter.
Does that change anything about Widow's Fury being an upgrade? I would think Widow's Fury would replace my Avools but if by chance I got 2 Widow's would it still be an uprade over Grasscutter even though I loose AP? (my build is a 0/43/28)
Also, I know this is still speculation, but has it been confirmed if they are going to change KM to a PPM or just nurf DW spec some other way?
Just out of curiosity, how viable (DPS wise) would be a dual wield build without ghoul and gargoyle ? Are they the "backbone" of the dual wielding DK or it's IT/HB/KM ?
Unless I've totally botched the math, Guile of Gorefiend is simply a talent that doesn't perform as well as you'd expect it to. Note that it doesn't buff IT or DC or your pets at all. Sure, you get omg big numbers, but the number we really care about is the one on Recount.
Comparing the talents in 44/27 with 31/40:
44/27
31/40
Comparison
Guile of Gorefiend - ~0.7% dps per point x3
Desecration - ~0.7% dps per point x3
Wash
Blood of the North - 5 required points with 0.07% dps gain per point
Reaping - 3 required points with no numerical gain - and Unholy Aura, also no numerical gain.
Compare 0.35% dps to Unholy Aura (or the remaining 1.4% dps from 2x Desecration).
Unbreakable Armor - ~1.74% dps with 33.3% uptime burning Blood Tap every time
Bone Shield - ~1.45% dps with 100% uptime without need to burn Blood Tap nearly as often
About a wash.
1 Merciless Combat - 0.31% dps
1 Crypt Fever - 2.16% dps (for the first point)
Hmm...
3 Annihilation - 0.09% dps per point
2 Crypt Fever - 0.66% dps per point (for points 2 and 3) and 1 Night of the Dead - intangible but good
Hmm...
Broken down that way it seems pretty clear, as long as the numbers are relatively accurate.
Regarding the EP/CF nerf, any word on whether that allows double third disease at all? That is, does my Crypt Fever go up and have no effect, or does it fail to go up entirely?
New patch notes releases, including the following "bug fix"
"Blood Caked Blade: Now does the proper damage amount when triggered by an off-hand weapon."
Pretty straight nerf to BCB if it is how I interpret it, that being that an offhand BCB proc will trigger an offhand-damage BCB.
Also something that will probably affect some 20/51 and 32/39 DK's
Ebon Plague: It is no longer possible to have a duration longer than the disease which caused it. It will no longer stack with Crypt Fever used by another character.
It's a minor nerf to fast/fast, large nerf to slow/fast. For dw, again, they just made fast/fast a staple.
How can you say how big of a nerf it is without knowing what exactly they change? There are many possibilities how they could make BCB work and they range from a minor buff to a fairly large nerf.
Do you guys as a community see anything on my armory that's like an ultra-scathing need to have switched out? From what I've seen, I've got best in slot for all but the belt, helm, and bracers. I know the boots have a lot of hit on them, but there's also a lot of str.
I see a few things. Perhapps this is just me being too hardcore min/maxing, but for DW I'm fairly confident 5/5 is not best in slot. 4 piece bonus is ignorable for us (shit so is 2 piece I guess) and the reason why you might see some people praising it is because of how good it is for other specs (blood/unholy). I don't really feel like posting all the wowhead comparisons on here, but off the top of my head, I think the neck from heroic malygos quest is better, deadly foe is better, leather chest from malygos might be better, and thats all I can remember atm. Also, your expertise seems dangerously low, perhaps swapping hit enchant on glove for expertise one and then getting an expertise on your bracers would be a good idea, unless you prefer the amount of expertise you have.
I don't mean to sound harsh, I would hope people here would critique my gear as well.
I see a few things. Perhapps this is just me being too hardcore min/maxing, but for DW I'm fairly confident 5/5 is not best in slot. 4 piece bonus is ignorable for us (shit so is 2 piece I guess) and the reason why you might see some people praising it is because of how good it is for other specs (blood/unholy). I don't really feel like posting all the wowhead comparisons on here, but off the top of my head, I think the neck from heroic malygos quest is better, deadly foe is better, leather chest from malygos might be better, and thats all I can remember atm. Also, your expertise seems dangerously low, perhaps swapping hit enchant on glove for expertise one and then getting an expertise on your bracers would be a good idea, unless you prefer the amount of expertise you have.
I don't mean to sound harsh, I would hope people here would critique my gear as well.
According to the newest spread sheet values he has one best in slot item - his T7 chest. All other items aren't best in slot.
Do you guys as a community see anything on my armory that's like an ultra-scathing need to have switched out? From what I've seen, I've got best in slot for all but the belt, helm, and bracers. I know the boots have a lot of hit on them, but there's also a lot of str.
I'd say switch the enchant on the boots and add atp enchant. What's your MH and OH weapons? Perhaps I've missed it somehow, but what spec do you intend to play?
Switching out to Blood Boil is something I had considered (and dropping all my [or most] expertise), but I haven't seen any discussion on the dps loss of the switch? Have I just missed those posts? Does switching to Blood Boil mean the new +45% talent may be worth choosing? Certainly the idea of eliminating the need for expertise appeals to me......
Because blood boil is affected by haste and blood strike isnt, I often use blood boil instead during heroism or PI (if a disc priest is feeling generous) or a haste pot, otherwise, blood strike is generally better.
I'd say switch the enchant on the boots and add atp enchant. What's your MH and OH weapons? Perhaps I've missed it somehow, but what spec do you intend to play?
I have Angry Dread / Hailstorm currently. I'd like another Hail for MH and go fast/fast.
Sorry I'm a 32/39 spec - The armory will be different when I respec after work (9-5 yay!).
In terms of straight AP (with an emphasis on STR based AP for the pet) I'm really that far off? dang...
From what I saw out of Naxx/big 3 I thought shy of a few pieces I was nearly there. Guess i have more work to do.
EDIT: Also - I do have the hit/exp chest off of ze naxx spider. I considered doing expertise enchants only because I'm getting really tired of whiffing on BS/PS. I've been noticing the expertise issue a lot...
Originally Posted by Hidden
According to the newest spread sheet values he has one best in slot item - his T7 chest. All other items aren't best in slot.
I must've missed the spreadsheet link - could that be provided?
Originally Posted by Hidden
How can you say how big of a nerf it is without knowing what exactly they change? There are many possibilities how they could make BCB work and they range from a minor buff to a fairly large nerf.
All the patch notes mean is that instead of the OH procing on MH damage it's now going to proc on the OH as intended.
PRE-PATCH the OH would proc MH damage, so you would see higher BCB proc damage based on the mainhand (because all procs would be according the MH's dmg).
It's already been shown currently that fast/fast does more bcb damage than slow/fast, the change means that the gap is now LARGER (simple math) in favor of fast/fast because the damage delta between the 2 weapons is significant.
Is it reasonable to assume, however, that 44/27 is superior to being the second 31/40 DK in a 25-person raid?
Both builds use 27 points in Unholy, and the 31/40 person will take the following:
Reaping (3): Covered by Blood of the North, for 2 more points, and carrying a slight benefit
Unholy Aura (2): Useless for the 2nd Death Knight
Desecration/Virulence (5): OK talents, but mostly taken to get to 35
Bone Armor (1): Solid, for sure
Crypt Fever (3): Useless for one of the two Death Knights
NotD (1): Intangible, but useful
So really, all the 2nd 31/40 gets for sure is Bone Armor, 1 point in NotD and a few points in Virulence/Desecration.
When you take Crypt Fever and Unholy Aura out of the equation, I think that the idea of having a 44/27 build is much more attractive.
Not sure if it was mention before, but I'm not sure how good a meta is for us (32/39 or 44/27). Right now I'm wearing Fire-Scorched Greathelm wich doesnt have a meta socket. Should I go back to a lower lvl item like Spiked Titansteel Helm for the meta ?
I definitely think it's worth going for the meta considering how much crit damage we do. I was in the same situation and I noticed a dps increase going from fire-scorched greathelm to spiked titansteel. Even with the stat change in the next patch spiked titansteel will still be better.
01/07/09, 11:41 AM
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