People... I can't understand you.
With every tiny change people here cry out "but now 44/27 must be superior". It's never been close to 32/39, neither in utility nor in DPS, and small changes that slightly favor one build won't change that. Is it really so hard to understand that?

What do the recent changes mean?
You won't need a certain speed now, while slower weapons may have a slight advantage in your main hand, you'll want the weapons with the best stats and DPS now, those are still Last Laugh and Hailstorm, however weapons like Angry Dead and Silent Crusader are quite close now.

I thought BCB would still favor fast/fast because it's normalized, no?

Hidden - the CF/EP double stacking issue makes 31/40 look highly unattractive since you need a 17/0/54 or 0/20/51 DK to Pestilence EP on aoe for your raid, so the 31/40 DK loses his third disease. I still think 31/40 will end up superior but I haven't implemented the two disease change yet so I can't run the numbers.

Some numbers with the updated math:

Rotation IT-PS-HB-FS-BS-BS-FS(dump) / HB-FS-IT-PS-HB-FS(dump)

44/27 UA, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5185.96 DPS
44/27 UA, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5158.04 DPS
44/27 UA, Widow's Fury, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5151.51 DPS
10/31/30, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5146.17 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence, one FS only each dump period: 5136.45 DPS
44/27 FS, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5122.23 DPS
10/31/30, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5116.65 DPS
10/31/30, Widow's Fury, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5115.07 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, blood presence, one FS only each dump period: 5104.63 DPS
44/27 FS, Widow's Fury, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence: 5089.95 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, unholy presence, dumping all RP: 5051.76 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5029.99 DPS

Whoops, when you said mewse's rotation I was thinking of an older one posted by someone a few pages back. I'll do some more numbers with the Antiseptic rotation tweaked a bit to maximize KM procs:

Rotation HB - IT - BS - HB - dump repeat

44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5340.35 DPS
44/27 UA, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5294.17 DPS
44/27 UA, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5288.04 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5262.61 DPS
44/27 FS, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/BS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5211.08 DPS
44/27 FS, Last Laugh, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, blood presence, dumping all RP: 5184.04 DPS
44/27 FS, Angry Dread, Ghoul/IT/FS glyphs, unholy presence, dumping all RP: 5144.82 DPS

I don't know if it's still normalized, I just assumed Blizzard 'fixed' everything that doesn't look correct about the talent, if it's still normalized it will of course favor Fast/Fast. I'm also not sure what you mean by losing the third disease, a few weeks ago Blizzard has already said they don't want the number of viable Unholy DKs be limited by EP and they're looking into having the third disease apply for every DK specced into them but not giving the buff each.

There haven't been any tests on these issues yet, have there? I'm going to do some then.

Some maths on KM proc chance:
Current: 1/2 Crit
3.08: 5/60 Speed * Hit
For my setup (1.6 Speed, ~35% Crit raidbuffed, ~77% Hit including Misses/Dodges/Parries) this means:
Current: 1/2 * 0.35 = 0.175
3.08: 5/60 * 1.6 * 0.77 = 0.103
1/2 Crit = 5/60 Speed * Hit => Crit = 1/6 Speed * Hit => Speed = 6 * Crit / Hit
My numbers inserted:
Speed = 6 * 0.35 / 0.77 = 2.73

So I'm losing KM procs unless I'm using a >2.7 Speed weapon which is not existant as a Level 80 epic.

Once again I tried using the search mechanism, but to no avail--so I will bite the bullet and ask here.

Did PW tonight and recount showed me at 5010 in a 3:30 fight (no flask, don't ask). I used AOTD about 1 minute in because we wiped the attempt before in addition to gargoyle and normal pet, obviously. The confusion comes with uploading the data to Wowmeteronline. It had my dps around 4500 and was wondering if it read that low because it couldn't attribute the AOTD damage to my damage done? I thought I read something about a bug with it, but am not sure and could not find it with the search tool.

Here is the parse for good measure WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Reports from the last PTR build are that CF and EP completely fail to stack: that is, CF goes away when EP goes on and the CF DK then has two diseases.

Blizzard has stated previously (a while back) that they would like to fix the EP stacking problems but that a fix would be very difficult to implement and that we shouldn't hold our breath. AFAIK there has been no further evidence that this is no longer the case, unless you count the CF/EP nerf as evidence. I'll try to dig up the relevant blue post and edit it in: Here

I've just tested Gargoyle on the PTR, it seems to have an average coefficient of 33% of your AP now (fully talented as 32/39). With 4501 AP my Gargoyle is doing just over 1500 average, with 3175 just over 1000 average - it's also missing quite a lot, that shouldn't have changed though.

BCB looks like it's still normalized, using no weapon BCB was doing exactly 1/4 of the normal damage without diseases, only using my 1.6 speed mainhand with no procs I was seeing it doing 32.2% of the normal damage on average.

I've been playing around with various rotations for 32/39 without crypt fever and 44/27 FS. Even assuming 100% ghoul uptime and Angry Dread MH, 32/39 pulls ahead by about 100 DPS. It's very likely that I wasn't able to come up with something that properly balanced KM procs and 32 RP FSs though. I'll get to work on the item database so I can release the updated sheet, and then maybe someone smarter than me can plug in more optimal rotations.

BTW, highest rotation for 44/27 was HB-IT-BS-HB-Dump, and highest for 32/39 was IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-DC/IT-PS-HB-IT-IT-DC-DC.

That 32/39 rotation looks quite messed up, not only does it waste lots of RP but it also doesn't work like this, does it?
IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-DC
IT-PS-HB-IT-IT-DC-DC

The HB in the 2nd rotation would use both Death Runes and have a free GCD in between it and the PS, the 2 IT after it wouldn't be possible like that.

Try something like this:
IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-DC
IT-DC-HB-IT-HB-Dump

If you want to keep the IT/PS combo in without wasting the RP you'd need to change it to use a Death Rune from the beginning:
IT-PS-IT-BS-HB-DC-DC
IT-PS-BS-IT-HB-DC-DC

However you're using all GCDs in that rotation so you wouldn't have any space to fit in Rime procs without losing DC damage, so you're probably better off with the above rotation.

So just to throw a rough number out there about the gargoyle nerf, based on my last Patchwerk (your numbers will vary based on how strong your garg is):
Average strike down from 2800 to 1900, and half the duration, so gargoyle damage would go from 85k to 30k, a loss of 55k. However, you don't have the RP drain for the last 30s, so you gain back 240 RP, which with 6 3.5k DCs would be 21k. Overall that is a loss of 34k, with my total dmg being 1001k (that includes AotD and ghoul), thats a loss of 3.5%.

Make of that number what you will. Anyway, what is really annoying about the gargoyle change is that it nerfs 2h unholy and 50/0/21 blood builds as well as DW.

edit: Worth mentioning, just DCing for those 30 seconds instead of summoning gargoyle would yield 18.4k dps compared to the 30k dps of garg. That makes the one point spent on garg worth a 1.2% dps increase; using my numbers at least. Feel free to check your numbers.

If you are getting higher numbers subbing DC for FS when KM is already up with the rotation you listed, then you may want to check your modeling for errors. Remember that you are not comparing a guaranteed-crit FS minus a base-crit DC to a guaranteed-crit IT minus a base-crit IT, but with a guaranteed-crit IT minus a base-crit IT with at least a 1-GCD KM build time.

For a FS build, you will have full GoG and full Rime. In raid (assumed with your 6+k numbers), an IT immediately following a FS is still critting at around 60-65% depending on gear, while a guaranteed-crit FS is almost a non-crit DC more than a base-crit DC. There is just no way 35-40% of your non-crit IT is going to beat almost a full non-crit DC.

The modeling will change if the new KM makes it to live at 5 PPM, of course, but you will probably still want to track down the bug.

You need to be careful when using 13-GCD rotations with aggregated rune pair use in both rune sets (like in the bolded rotation above).

That rotation...

IT>PS>BS>HB>BS>fs
IT>PS>HB>IT>IT>fs>fs

...is not tight because the late aggregate on your Unholy #2 in rune set #1 (first HB) causes your rotation to go over 20 sec.


Here is an example of a tight 13-GCD rotation that uses aggregated rune pairs in both rune sets:

IT>PS>HB>dc>BB>BB(>dc)
HB>PS>IT>dc>HB>dc

The above is a "Desecration" rotation that uses IT glyph. ITx4 "Desecration" rotations want IT glyph when under Gargolye/Bloodlust but don't when GCD-limited. Unfortunately, you can't just turn your IT glyph off when not under Gargoyle/Bloodlust, so you glyph IT and run the above rotation instead of an ITx4 rotation for higher DPS when not under Gargoyle/Bloodlust. The rotation only generates 150 RP per cycle, which is 10 RP short of 4xDC, so whenever there isn't enough RP, you simply skip a (>dc).



13-GCD FS rotations can be a little tricky to build. Without Desecration, PSx2 can be a significant DPS loss (even regeared for the 2-point gain in Virulence). However, with PSx1, giving your HB sufficient KM lead time can be problematic without sacrificing a FS for a DC.

Here is an example of a tight 13-GCD FS rotation:

IT>PS>HB>fs>fs>BS>BS
HB>fs>IT>fs>IT>IT

Note that technically you can run this without RPM, but you will probably want to pick up RPM for some RP reserve with this (on a cold start you skip the second FS to build up some RP reserve).

I'm terrible with rotations. Thanks for the advice.

Grigori, the comparison you quoted involved Frost Strike versus UA spec-wise, not Frost Strike versus Death Coil rotation-wise. UA models at over 100 DPS, so you can see that the slow mainhands (and even the fast ones) did show Frost Strike as a dps increase over Death Coil. I did find some very minor bugs while triple checking my FS math though, so thanks.

I get higher numbers with the Antiseptic rotation (HB IT BS HB Dump) than your FS rotation posted, though. Probably because there's quite a bit of extra RP floating around when glyphed - I assume your rotation is for pre-patch.

without crypt fever 32/39 still beats 44/27 FS by 100 dps? interesting

Unless I misinterpreted 'ppm' the KM change is a huge nerf to DW, it outright defeats the purpose of having KM in a DW build when a slow 2H will most probably proc KM 5 times within 1 min since its only on auto attack hit and not crit.

So this mean 5 procs will be eaten up within 15-20s max leaving you KM less for the remaining minute?

Proc Mechanics

I recommend anyone who has any doubts about how PPM mechanics work to read that article.

Just a quick note while i know it's not definitive this test was put up on the EU Blizzard forums. These are not my numbers but come from another poster.

I just hit up PTR to test Killing Machine changes, and I must say that I personally find them very nice. KM seems to have individual PPM per weap, thus favoring dual wield, and seems to be set according to base weapon speed, NOT hasted speed.

I ran 3 tests as it was all I had for, each with a duration us close to 10 mins, so it isn't 100% reliable but should be a good indication.

Using a 2 hander and no haste effects:
39 procs over 9m 46s with an avrage of 3.99 PPM.

Dual wielding (2.6 mh/1.6 oh) and no haste effects:
102 procs over 10m 23s with an avrage of 9.82 PPM.

Dual wielding (2.6mh/1.6 oh) and 46.86% haste (15 UA, 25 ImpIT, 6.68 Item):
134 procs over 10m 7s with an avrage of 13.25 PPM.

This would seem to suggest that the 1PPM per point is roughly correct and that it works independantly for each weapon. It would also suggest that haste will go up quite a bit in value and Unholy presence will gain in power (though whether enough to match blood is to be tested). I'd say 10 procs per minute is a pretty good base rate and 12ppm is pretty acheivable for 4 procs per rotation.. not at all bad.

It also looks like the current preferred fast/fast combo might not be the be all and end all combo anymore. Certainly for 44/27 it looks like a slow mainhand will come back into favour for heavier frost strikes.

Gargoyle nerf is not as bad as it seems due to as stated many times but often ignored gargoyle replace rune dumps so is not as big a damage boost as most seem to think.. you lose DC/FS damage to gain gargoyle.

BCB will obviously be a small nerf but thats a fix not a balance nerf and will likely be overshadowed by necrosis damage increase.

Biggest nerf will likely be the CF/EP stacking nerf but i won't cry just yet as it's only PTR and they could still make the 3rd disease usable but not the extra CF bonus.. i won't hold my breath though :P

Did some PTR testing with the KM and Garg nerfs. To my surprise, the overall nerf was rather light. KM does proc more often than 5 times a minute. As the poster above me says, check out proc mechanics and don't listen to the idiots who are shouting doom and gloom.

Overall, from my parses on live vs. PTR, my overall crit rate on specials took about a small hit. However, the necrosis buff, Glyph of IT buff, IT Sigil, and Howling Blast being off CD (thus allowing you to actually USE those Rime Procs) almost completely counterbalance the crit loss.

The Gargoyle on live does about ~10% of my damage if he's allowed to live full duration. On PTR its about 6.5% of my damage. So yea, the nerf is a bit steep for him, but I'm sure we all saw it coming. Also, remember that Night of the Dead will allow your pet to survive in many places where he previously could not. If he does happen to die, the cooldown reduction portion of the talent allows you to bring him back out almost right away.

What is mildly confusing me is that I tested using slow/fast and fast/fast again (due to PPM mechanics on KM) and for some reason I was actually doing more with fast/fast still. For double fast I'm using double Hatestrike. Fallen Crusader MH/CG OH (haven't run with many mages lately). For the Slow/Fast I'm using Torment of the Banished / Hatestrike and tried several rune combos and still somehow lost DPS. I thought with Torment being the better weapon Necrosis would favor it, but apparently not. Is there something I'm missing? Or should I do trials that last longer than 6 minutes next time to take out the luck factor?

I read a lot the last weeks in here, but I prefer to stay in the background.

I tried a lot with 0/32/39, rotations etc. On wednesday raid I hit 6300dps PW, 6000 Noth, 8247 Anub (85 seconds kill, only Recount SS, no wws) and 6100 (faerlina solo on left side, adds on the right). I thank you all for your tips and rotations and so on. I think I realized them very good.

Today I transfered my dk on german ptr to try some rotations and some 3min dps vs. boss dummy. f/f and s/f setup.
I think I came to a positiv result.

First round: 3min f/f (dual [Hatestrike]) 3250 DPS

Second round: s/f setup (sorry I only got [Broken Promise] tank weapon) + [Hatestrike] and wow i got 3700 dps on that dummy.

That was awesome. I used every rime procc I got. Rotation was as you read here for hundrets of times IT/PS/HB/BS/BS - Dump // IT/PS/HB/IT/IT - Dump.

It would be nice to get some answers from people using 0/44/27, I never tried this specc.

Edit: All 3min tests were without gargoyle.

Edit2: No the dummy was NOT sub 35. I said the boss dummy, and I know what the boss dummy is.

Was the dummy sub 35?

Fast notes from my PTR testing today with 0/32/39:
- S/F > F/F now, yet rather dps > speed in MH weapon choice (156 fast should be still better than 143 slow for example)
- death runes on IT > death runes on HB on single target, it was obvious seeing new sigil and new IT glyph alone of course
- 0/32/39 owned 17/0/54 by about 200 dps on single target (silvermoon dummy, over 35% hp, pets used) so in reality it will be even more as it is now
- 0/32/39 now have comparable or better aoe (500dps more on 3 dummies but WP wasn't counted for unholy)
- DnD lowers DPS (even glyphed), HB + PT spam is superior
- CF/EP stacking *seems* to still not be fixed (multiple DK bug not CF+EP bonus dmg bug)
- Garg got hit in the balls and even with Necrosis buff this is like 5% total damage nerf for all specs that was using it

Overall DW will be still superior single (and aoe) dps spec and is actually more fun now with cd off HB and PT. As for 0/44/27 the problem with that build is lack of NotD but it may be viable as 2nd/3rd DK because of CF/EP stacking bug.

Given that I already have proper weapons while bosses in Naxx refuse to drop sigil and 2h axe I will most likely go 0/32/39 permanently when this go live.

P.S. Any ideas about 3rd (aside Ghoul and IT) major glyph? Cannot see anything besides BS.

EDIT: Actually the situation with EP/CF may be worse than ever, there is only one debuff allowed on target now any "lesser" ones are removed so for example 3/3 EP removed 1/3 EP or 3/3 CF, 2/3 CF removes 1/3 CF etc. Is someone able to test is "3rd disease" bug is fixed on PTR?

Guess I'll be dusting off my Angry Dread and putting Hailstorm back in my offhand.

Thanks for this. 1 less piece of gear I need to hawk a drop for.

You're missing something.

Blood-Caked Blade still favors fast weapons, unless they removed the normalization.

----

I'm very much doubting that slow and fast can create such huge gaps with eachother as some of these PTR tests are showing. I'd like to see some more extensive testing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as i can tell we have 2 variables left that favor either slow or fast:

1. Strikes, all strikes favor slow. However since all strikes are normalized this gap seriously isn't big.
2. Blood-caked Blades. Attacks are normalized so the damage of slow and fast are nearly equal, however fast weapons still get a lot more procs than slow weapons.

Now I'm guessing that these 2 nearly cancel each other out, meaning we have a very decent balance.

Another thing about the tests done on PTR, take it with a grain of salt.
From what im seeing people are doing short tests (meaning certain luck factors play a role), people use different dps weapons (like Cruisi uses a main hand with higher dps).
Also if you consider the 2 factors i mentioned above, fast weapons scale better with raid buffs.
Unbuffed the benefit of higher weapon damage per strike/Blood-caked strike is relative way higher than when you're raid buffed (since the weapon damage part is static)

So I'm not really convinced yet that slow weapons now pull the lead by such a big margin.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, slow weapons get some benefit from PPM procs like our runeforges, due to the higher proc chance on strikes. However I'm not really sure how big that impact really is. I doubt it accounts for the 500+ dps differences people are reporting.

While more testing is needed to see just what the differences between slow and fast mainhands are i think it's looking like they will be much more equal than before. It might just come down to whichever drops first. Brainstorming would suggest slow is better for 44/27 and fast for 32/39 and 20/51 but more testing is needed