Dual Wield Builds - Page 46

Deathwing · 01/09/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

This is why I was doing all my calculations with 'consumed ppm' instead of actual ppm - yes, the buff overwrites really do amount to a lot of the procs, especially with gear like his. I posted code a few pages back to calculate an estimated consumed ppm given stats, if you want to compare that to the WWS - I'm not at work right now, so I don't have it in front of my to run.

Haste is not an undesireable stat. Though it increases buff overwriting, it increases proc number by the same degree - overall effect on consumed ppm (cppm) is positive. Buff overwriting on the ptr will be exactly like the current model, except that the cppm (and the overwritten ppm) won't change with stats.

My confusion though is why buff overwriting is affecting current KM drastically more than PTR KM. Is it the change in proccing method to smooth out proc generation(though, I'm not sure how the new method is any smoother TBH)? Was it the person on the PTR using a slow MH, causing longer time between proc chances? I could maybe see slow MH making that much of a difference(but no idea how to check that), especially if used with a fast OH so that proc chances are rarely coming at the same time.

Taiyoken · 01/09/09, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

I think the new weapons choice method will shift from:
Speed > DPS > Stats
to
DPS>Stats>>Speed

Would this make Last Laugh much more desirable due to being the only 1h weapon over 156 dps despite the lack of dps stats? (other than hit)

Grigori · 01/09/09, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by kurokaze

I'm terrible with rotations. Thanks for the advice.

Grigori, the comparison you quoted involved Frost Strike versus UA spec-wise, not Frost Strike versus Death Coil rotation-wise. UA models at over 100 DPS, so you can see that the slow mainhands (and even the fast ones) did show Frost Strike as a dps increase over Death Coil. I did find some very minor bugs while triple checking my FS math though, so thanks.

I get higher numbers with the Antiseptic rotation (HB IT BS HB Dump) than your FS rotation posted, though. Probably because there's quite a bit of extra RP floating around when glyphed - I assume your rotation is for pre-patch.

It was not a spec comparison. It was a comparison between subbing a DC for a FS when KM is up and letting FS munch the already-up KM. It was directed at your post about implementing such a rotational contingency in your spreadsheet (which I tried to quote but got left out somehow), and was not directed at your quoted text below (that was quoted for the rotation you used).

You probably could have figured that out despite the missing quote if the math was a little less counter-intuitive. Try thinking of it this way: By replacing FS with a DC when KM is already up, any KM lead time from the DC to the next IT/HB is effectively wasted, and, when KM is already up, you are dealing with a contingency in which FS has a huge advantage over DC.

Yes, you deduce correctly that those were live rotations from the characteristics (6-sec HB spacing in the first rotation and only 4xFS in the second) with 6-sec HB cooldown and no 32-RP-FS glyph. Obviously with the 32-RP-FS-glyph and no cooldown on HB, stronger rotations become possible, but for live, those are two of the better ones.

Waste · 01/09/09, 5:05 PM

Pulling back from target dummies for a second, and thinking about raiding realities, is 32/39 (or 31/40) a dead raiding spec for dull practical raid composition purposes?

If you have only 1 Death Knight in your raid, it seems like consensus is that the one Death Knight should be either run 0/20/51 (if dual wielding) or 17/0/54 (if 2H). This is largely because of Ebon Plaguebringer's magic debuff and the ease with which it is quickly spread (edit: I do realize that the impact of the debuff is covered by Boomkin/Warlocks, but not with the ease or impact that a DK can spread it).

If you bring an additional Death Knight, that Death Knight would be wasting talents to spec into either Unholy Aura (which is picked up by either of the above builds) or Crypt Fever (which, as of the patch, cannot exist on a mob that holds Ebon Plaguebringer). At that point, the 32/39 build is spending 12 talent points to go up the Unholy tree to pick up Unholy Armor and Reaping.

It seems to me that you cannot consider the 32/39 build in a vacuum - you have to assume that you've either got another DK in your raid that has already trumped the deep Unholy abilities, or you've decided as a group to forgoe Ebon Plaguebringer entirely.

Obviously, the *better* fix (that GC has alluded to) is that game mechanics need to be fixed to allow an appropriately specc'd Death Knight to take advantage of that third disease (I don't mean the impact of the debuff of course, I mean the existence for BCB purposes, for example). But reality seems to be that they aren't ready to code that right now.

Until they fix that, I am hard pressed to see how you aren't effectively forced down this decision tree:

First Death Knight: Mandatory deep Unholy through Ebon Plaguebringer
Second Death Knight: Mandatory avoid deep Unholy past Master of Ghouls.

kurokaze · 01/09/09, 5:14 PM

I was going to wait until I added in a solid gear database, but it seems we've reached critical mass on conflicting napkin math and wild speculation. I have no choice but to release some harder numbers. Hopefully Grigori or someone can provide some optimal post-patch rotations so that our numbers are as accurate as can be.

I'll run some of the more recent questions and edit in/post the results next, but I think it'll be most efficient to get the tool out there ASAP.

Caveats:
**Be sure to check 'Parameters' for a few variables that swing the calculation one way or another between the two popular specs:

Desecration uptime (this just represents the amount of time standing in it vs. not assuming it's up 100%; entering 50% will result in 25% uptime if your rotation keeps it up 50%)

Bone shield and UA uptime also self-explanatory. Target snared is for Glyph of Blood Strike, activate this (up to 100, not up to 1) if you expect to have FFB mages postpatch and want to estimate based on the claim that the FFB dot activates said glyph.

Ghoul uptime given x points in NotD - this is multiplied by 2/5 if you don't take MoG, which might not be the most realistic way to model things...

Merciless uptime might be a bit low on the estimate but shouldn't change much one way or the other.

**Additionally, check 'Buffs' to ensure that the proper buffs are selected regarding Crypt Fever and Ebon Plague. Particularly, make sure to include 3 CF if you're not the EP bitch and want to estimate stacking as it is on PTR.

**Rotationwise, the options are rather a mess. I'm pretty sure I cleaned out all the impossible rotations, but I wouldn't assume the optimal rotation for whatever spec is included or anything.

**I haven't fully tested the options regarding the optimization code for accuracy or workingness. All I know is that the numbers the estimate spits out don't raise too many red flags (provided the ones listed DO NOT USE are not used) and that in theory the non-estimate should be both more accurate and hellishly slow to calculate.

orion121 · 01/09/09, 5:21 PM

Long time reader, first time poster. In response to a statement last night stating a DPS increase (over Live) when using an IT-HB-HB-BS rotation I started running some numbers to get a rough sense of how this would work out. In the process of trying to chart out the rotation I came accross a very very clean IT-BS/Pes-HB-HB Dump HB-HB-PS-BS Dump rotation that would work ideally This 44/27

My general findings are listed Here though I haven't had a chance to test them. The focal points of the rotation are it's AoE centric and very clean with rune management.

Just looking to get some feed back and/or testing on this one, unless of course it's already been done and tossed aside.

froggiess · 01/09/09, 5:21 PM

@waste: Both warlocks and boomkins can bring the same 13% spell damage debuff that is provided by EP.

Do people still think 0/20/51 is viable?
In 10 minute tests for 4 specs (specced into gargoyle but didnt pop it) on Boss Dummy I got:

0/20/51 3k
0/44/27(UA) 3100
0/44/27(FS) 3200
0/32/39(No CF) 3300

Are other people getting similar results with 32/39 still being the highest dps?

Torrential · 01/09/09, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Waste

First Death Knight: Mandatory deep Unholy through Ebon Plaguebringer
Second Death Knight: Mandatory avoid deep Unholy past Master of Ghouls.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

You're missing points in Runic Power Mastery, but I'm sure you could adjust for that without much of a loss. You still get bone shield and NotD, which in my opinion, is required if you're going to bother with master of ghouls.

Goetterdaemmerung · 01/09/09, 5:26 PM

Guile of Gorefiend

Switching to 44 frost, I was expecting a larger boost to HB damage than I saw. I did some naked tests, and over an average of 500 howling blasts per category, saw my noncrits hitting for 620, my non-GoG crits hitting for 1273, and my GoG crits hitting for 1378. Either my sample size isn't large enough, I don't understand one of the mechanics at play here, or GoG is only giving me an extra 17% to HB crits instead of 45%.

Hyperaktiv · 01/09/09, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Waste

Until they fix that, I am hard pressed to see how you aren't effectively forced down this decision tree:

First Death Knight: Mandatory deep Unholy through Ebon Plaguebringer
Second Death Knight: Mandatory avoid deep Unholy past Master of Ghouls.

We can however presume that a moonkin will be playing the part as death knight number one.

Gbyrd · 01/09/09, 6:02 PM

Are we moving to Slow/Fast now? KM now has a PPM on it 5 per minute. By Utilizing a slow MH it will now increase dps since we can no longer proc more with a fast/fast.

Torn · 01/09/09, 6:16 PM

Edit: Misunderstood you, sorry.

kurokaze · 01/09/09, 7:04 PM

Regarding 45/26, the obvious place to remove the point is Impurity. Gargoyle is still worth 3-4% DPS unless it was nerfed significantly more than 20% damagewise (20% being the number implied by the patch notes). Impurity loses some of its oomph by switching from DC to FS. Listed DPS goes up 0.26% via the switch but that's assuming optimal UA uptime and no Blood Tap use otherwise. Overall it seems like a bad change anywhere except on paper.

Regarding scaling, assuming 100% ghoul and 100% desecration uptimes respectively:

0.69 dps per gain in AP using 32/39 non-CF.
0.67 dps per gain in AP using 44/27 FS.
0.66 dps per gain in AP using 45/26.

I'm still seeing 32/39 ahead by 1.32% or about 80 DPS. Honestly though, it looks like it's close enough to where preference and intangible Desecration/Ghoul friendliness are much more important than the trivialities of the numbers.

Apply with grain of salt pending a smarter person to optimize rotations/catch bugs. Used rotations were:

32/39: IT PS HB BS BS Dump (delay rotation if RP is available, use Rime) / IT PS HB IT IT Dump (likewise)
44/27: HB IT BS HB Dump (delay rotation if RP is available, use Rime)

Edit: A slightly better 44/27 number (~10 DPS) was found by using the listed 32/39 rotation in Unholy Presence.

dukes · 01/09/09, 8:24 PM

Originally Posted by Goetterdaemmerung

Guile of Gorefiend

Switching to 44 frost, I was expecting a larger boost to HB damage than I saw. I did some naked tests, and over an average of 500 howling blasts per category, saw my noncrits hitting for 620, my non-GoG crits hitting for 1273, and my GoG crits hitting for 1378. Either my sample size isn't large enough, I don't understand one of the mechanics at play here, or GoG is only giving me an extra 17% to HB crits instead of 45%.

I've just been on the PTR to try and verify this. I did the test entirely naked except for two 1.6/1.5 swords (Red Sword of Courage / Fang of Truth) with Swordbreaking on (in order to remove the damage runes I'd been using previously). I did this with a talent spec that picked up no damage modifiers, and stopped the test / added one point of guile after approx 200 hits of Howling Blast.

Points in Guile	0	1	2	3
Average Damage(noncrit)	325	326	326	325
Average Damage(crit)	651	675	700	725
Multiplier	2.0	2.07	2.15	2.23

This makes it look like Guile is providing half of the bonus it should be to Howling Blast. From a further test with all multipliers (Black Ice, Tundra Stalker and Glacier Rot) and using Icy Touch for frost fever and damage bonus, I got 1057 / 2345 / 2.22 as average hit / average crit / multiplier respectively over a similar size test, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with multipliers messing it up.

From quick testing, Frost Strike and Icy Touch seemed to be gaining the full bonus although my sample size wasn't really big enough to tell.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem that I can verify any findings through WWS reports, having just checked. There are too many intervening factors, such as what buffs were present, if trinket effects were active during parts, if desecration was/wasn't active, and other factors.

One other thing that I noticed incidentally that I've never seen mentioned before: Chill of the Grave provides 5 runic power per target for Howling Blast, so AoEing adds with it really does provide a huge amount of runic power if you time it right (see: spider spawn at Maexxna for example, which probably generates of the order of 50 RP for one HB).

Spyware · 01/09/09, 8:43 PM

What do you guys thinks about moving 2 points from Desecration and 1 from Virulence to 3/3 Outbreak? Is Outbreak really as fantastic as it looks for AOE damage?

2nd question - Can DK's get the desecration effect from other UH DK's in the raid?

Edit - Traditional 0/32/39 Build.

Daloron · 01/09/09, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

I've just been on the PTR to try and verify this. I did the test entirely naked except for two 1.6/1.5 swords (Red Sword of Courage / Fang of Truth) with Swordbreaking on (in order to remove the damage runes I'd been using previously). I did this with a talent spec that picked up no damage modifiers, and stopped the test / added one point of guile after approx 200 hits of Howling Blast.

Points in Guile	0	1	2	3
Average Damage(noncrit)	325	326	326	325
Average Damage(crit)	651	675	700	725
Multiplier	2.0	2.07	2.15	2.23

This makes it look like Guile is providing half of the bonus it should be to Howling Blast. From a further test with all multipliers (Black Ice, Tundra Stalker and Glacier Rot) and using Icy Touch for frost fever and damage bonus, I got 1057 / 2345 / 2.22 as average hit / average crit / multiplier respectively over a similar size test, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with multipliers messing it up.

From quick testing, Frost Strike and Icy Touch seemed to be gaining the full bonus although my sample size wasn't really big enough to tell.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem that I can verify any findings through WWS reports, having just checked. There are too many intervening factors, such as what buffs were present, if trinket effects were active during parts, if desecration was/wasn't active, and other factors.

One other thing that I noticed incidentally that I've never seen mentioned before: Chill of the Grave provides 5 runic power per target for Howling Blast, so AoEing adds with it really does provide a huge amount of runic power if you time it right (see: spider spawn at Maexxna for example, which probably generates of the order of 50 RP for one HB).

If this is true, its possibly related to a stacking issue with runic focus and the fact that HB is a spell. If the bonus it provides is multiplicative rather than additive and only based on the 150% modifier for spells, then it could explain this. I notice similarly poor scaling with HB and GoG, which is one of the reasons I shied away from using the 44/27 DW build, but I never bothered to quantitatively analyze it.

Goetterdaemmerung · 01/09/09, 9:06 PM

If it's true, they've plainly balanced our DPS around that talent, broken or not. For the purposes of reporting it/getting it fixed, the talent may as well say 7 percent/point. Relevant to spreadsheets, I guess.

Foxx2405 · 01/09/09, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by r00bah-teh-n00b0rz

There has been some talk recently about the DPS difference between 1.6 speed and 1.5 speed weapons. I want to propose that the optimal DPS setup may come from one weapon of each speed.

Looking at Ren's WWS log, I noticed that his two same-speed weapons stay perfectly in sync throughout the whole Patchwerk fight, exactly as we'd expect*. This is potentially problematic for the following reason: We are not trying to maximize the total number of KM procs, but rather the density of KM procs across any given interval of time. Specifically, with two same-speed weapons, if both weapons proc KM, one proc is GUARANTEED to be wasted, while with two different-speed weapons, you have more of a chance of spreading procs out.

As it stands now, procs are already wasted. Ren had 85 melee crits and only gained KM 26 times (meaning he must have proc'ed KM while he already had the buff several times; this is statistically significant enough to show wasted procs are likely). With one 1.6 speed and one 1.5 speed weapon, there will be compression and Kaubel is a nigger rarefaction of swing times: times when the two weapon swings come close together, and times when they drift apart. This is enough for us to conclude that two different-speed weapons are strictly better than two same-speed weapons with respect to guaranteed proc losses due to simultaneous or near simultaneous procs.

A little math to illustrate the potential importance of this:

Assuming 30% crit and two same-speed weapons,

Double-KM procs will occur 2.25% of the time (0.15^2)

Total KM proc likelihood on a double swing is 27.75% (1-0.85^2)

So just over 8% of all KM procs are double procs and incur a guaranteed wasted proc (.0225/.2775)

With all of that said, as mentioned before, it's clear we are already overwriting KM procs pretty often. So how important this consideration is remains to be seen. I am thinking of ways to better model and explain it, and invite others to help out.

* Actually, they are several ms off for the first couple swings, but link up by the bottom of the first page.

Is there any point in shamelessly copying Broseph's post ?

dr_AllCOM3 · 01/09/09, 9:26 PM

Originally Posted by r00bah-teh-n00b0rz

, I noticed that his two same-speed weapons stay perfectly in sync throughout the whole Patchwerk fight, exactly as we'd expect*.

They only swing at the same time, if you start attacking when in melee range. Otherwise the offhand starts when the mainhand is halfway done with it's first swing. I checked it back then when I made my Warrior sheet.

everwatch · 01/09/09, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I said you didn't know what you were talking about because you gave numbers that were misleading and gave opinions that lack basis in reality.

Your proposal that KM have an internal cooldown like windfury would be met by a mob with torches if you said it in the shaman threads. Do you have any idea what kind of *wierd* effects that has had on their weapon choices at various points in the game?

As for the gargoyle.. Have you been reading anything I've said on the topic? Gargoyle is worth 7-8% of your dps *tops*. I know what your WWS says, but it fails to report the 11 DCs you skipped to keep the guy out - subtract them from his 'worth'.

You obviously don't understand the WF mechanics. The internal CD caused problems because they made it apply from 1H to the other at the same time. Meaning once a proc went up from one hand, the other hand was also locked out of proc'ing until the 3 seconds had passed. This would not be necessary for a DK as you are not procing an instant attack, but instead a buff. And as it is well documented here already, many KM buffs are lost due to being proc'd at the same time as a current buff (causing a dps loss). An internal CD would work, and work well. The WF issue is an entirely different issue entire because it procs an attack, not a buff. Double procs of KM for a DK would net a dps loss (not a gain like Shaman saw before the ICD was added making them do far more dps than some pure dps), which already occurs for KM procs now under a non-regulated system (PPM/CD). If anything an ICD would decrease the density of procs occuring at the same time, making it easier to use KM when it was wanted. Either way, the point is moot with the PPM change on PTR.

The numbers are well documented on various WWS/WMO parses around the net. Gargoyle's exceed DC dps by any margin availble atm. Add in to that that the Gargoyle benefits from AP buff procs (such as trinkets/weapon enchants) in addition to Heroism, a Garg popped when your AP jumps to 7k+ and then gets Heroism is not remotely comprable to dps gains from DC's. They add far more than an imagined 7% of total damage done.

Althir · 01/09/09, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Daloron

If this is true, its possibly related to a stacking issue with runic focus and the fact that HB is a spell. If the bonus it provides is multiplicative rather than additive and only based on the 150% modifier for spells, then it could explain this. I notice similarly poor scaling with HB and GoG, which is one of the reasons I shied away from using the 44/27 DW build, but I never bothered to quantitatively analyze it.

Death Knight spells crit for +100% damage, not +50% damage. Consult the Frost ability "Runic focus".

Melchior · 01/09/09, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Althir

Death Knight spells crit for +100% damage, not +50% damage. Consult the Frost ability "Runic focus".

I think that's his point - if Guile of Gorefiend is only applying the 45% increase on the "normal" 150% spell crit damage instead of the 200% Runic Focus crit damage, it might explain the discrepancy. Runic Focus may not be interacting properly with Guile of Gorefiend when it comes to Howling Blast, as Howling Blast is the only "spell" ability modified by it.

Sacerdos · 01/09/09, 11:58 PM

2.225 would be the crit damage multiplier if GoG works off the 1.5 spell crit modifier, which is exactly the multiplier implied by the previously posted data.

.5 (spell crit bonus) * .45 (GoG multiplier) = .225

2 (DK spell crit multiplier) + .225 = 2.225

2.225 rounded up is 2.23.

Indicate · 01/10/09, 1:04 AM

Runic Focus
Unlike most casters, a Death Knight's spells cause double damage on critical hits.

Ive noticed the same with GoG and Howling Blast. I believe a few spells aren't effected by Runic Focus. DnD being another one. If someone could confirm this it would be helpful. We should find out just which spells are benefiting and which aren't.
Also we might want to factor in the 3% crit bonus from the meta gem to see if that's working properly.

Pork-DK · 01/10/09, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Taiyoken

Would this make Last Laugh much more desirable due to being the only 1h weapon over 156 dps despite the lack of dps stats? (other than hit)

Last laugh is a great dps weapon IMO. Since only tanking weapons have strength on them anymore, it makes it pretty nice.Yes it has hit too. It's the only 171 dps weapon us DK's can use. I currently MH it, but my gear is garbage :[