Just a note on the discussion for slow/fast and DPS overall:
Wouldn't it be feasible to have a very slow MH [Silent Crusader] for example and stand right in front of the boss next to the tank. Dropping all expertise you will be able to make alot of runestrikes wich deliver GREAT dmg per runepower. Also these runestrikes will not interfere with any rotations. So dropping expertise and getting a badass slow MH might increase DPS? Moreover this increased parry chance will not hurt our DPS much because the 2 main dps attacks (frost fever and Howling Blast) will not be parried.
Drawbacks:
Parryhaste
Cleave
Aggro?
EDIT: Doh sometimes ideas in the morning do not seem so good in the afternoon...Nothing said :P
Rune strikes happen when you parry/dodge the boss attacks, not when he parries your attacks. DPSing from the front of the tank will not miraculously get you a lot of extra runestrikes unless the boss cleaves, in which case it is more likely to get you killed.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
Just a note on the discussion for slow/fast and DPS overall:
Wouldn't it be feasible to have a very slow MH [Silent Crusader] for example and stand right in front of the boss next to the tank. Dropping all expertise you will be able to make alot of runestrikes wich deliver GREAT dmg per runepower. Also these runestrikes will not interfere with any rotations. So dropping expertise and getting a badass slow MH might increase DPS? Moreover this increased parry chance will not hurt our DPS much because the 2 main dps attacks (frost fever and Howling Blast) will not be parried.
As there are many wild speculations about KM, here's my formula for KM affected total ability crit chance from my post in the spreadsheet thread:
KM: # of points in KM
Meleecrit: melee crit factor, e.g. 0.5 for 50%
AbilityDelay: time between the last ability that used a KM proc and the current ability, average time between KM using abilities is usually quite fine as well
MHSpeed/OHSpeed: actual MH/OH speed including all haste effects
BaseMHSpeed/BaseOHSpeed: base MH/OH speed excluding haste effects
Hitchance: your melee hit chance, 1 minus your miss chance minus your dodge chance
AbilityCrit: the crit chance for the ability excluding KM
An example:
You want to calculate the crit chance of the IT in the center (underlined) of a IT>DC>HB>IT>HB>DC rotation while having 10% haste rating and 0.1 latency. You have 25% base crit and are specced 3/3 Rime, 5/5 KM and 1/1 iIT, you have 10% melee hit and 5% expertise, your weapons are 1.6 and 1.5 speed.
So for the stats listed above the crit chance of the IT in the center will go from 71.06% pre-patch to 66.37% post-patch.
If you want to calculate the impact of Slow vs. Fast for BS and BCB, you need the weapon speed (Speed), your weapon damage per rotation (from PS/BS) (WDmg), your crit chance (Crit), your haste (Haste), your AP (AP), weapon DPS (WDPS) and Ability/white hit chance (AHit/WHit).
Total BS/PS and BCB weapon damage (assuming 2 diseases):
Damage=WDmg*(WDPS*Speed+AP/14*2.4)*(1+Crit)*AHit+10/Speed*0.3*0.5*(WDPS*Speed+AP/14*2.4)*(1+Haste)*WHit
Comparing weapons with 156.6 DPS while having 6300 AP, 31% melee crit, 30% total haste, expertise cap and 10% hit using 1 PS and 1 BS per rotation:
1.5: Damage=0.8*(156.6*1.5+6300/14*2.4)*(1+0.31)*1+10/1.5*0.3*0.5*(156.6*1.5+6300/14*2.4)*(1+0.3)*0.83=1378.0152+1418.7771=2796.7923
2.5: Damage=0.8*(156.6*2.5+6300/14*2.4)*(1+0.31)*1+10/2.5*0.3*0.5*(156.6*2.5+6300/14*2.4)*(1+0.3)*0.83=1542.1320+952.6491=2494.7811
So with the given stats, a 1.5 speed weapon would do 30.2 DPS (multiplied by armor factor) more than a 2.5 speed weapon.
What do you guys thinks about moving 2 points from Desecration and 1 from Virulence to 3/3 Outbreak? Is Outbreak really as fantastic as it looks for AOE damage?
No it is almost completely useless. Best aoe rotation is IT/PS -> PT and then spam HB + PT (switch targets to keep diseases on everyone) forever. No point of using BB with PT off cd (too small damage increase to care) and PS is a joke.
Has anyone been able to verify if the new Killing Machine causes a great DPS decrease? I browsed through this thread but I can't seem to find a satisfying answer.
As it currently stands, I'm noticing a marked DPS *increase* on the PTR while ignoring the Gargoyle. KM seems to have a similar uptime to live, but you get more uses out of it rather than the stupid proc overiding on live. Especially since now that HB is without cooldown 100% of your KM procs can go to it.
Ghostcrawler said they're going to look into it, though.
Edit: As an afterthought, the Gargoyle's DPS loss looks to be pretty substantive. Mine was only critting for ~1500 or so. And the 30 second uptime is really weak. That's probably going to be where the bulk of the 32/39 build's DPS loss comes from. Unless of course they really screw KM over and give it a ICD.
So with the upcoming stacking nerf of CF & EP, does it make sense for the 32/39 to forget about CF points all together? Something along the lines of Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
So with the upcoming stacking nerf of CF & EP, does it make sense for the 32/39 to forget about CF points all together? Something along the lines of Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
If you're not taking crypt fever because there's already an unholy DK, which their should be, then you don't need unholy aura either. And CE will be a nice ability to have for heavy AoE encounters or trash.
It sounds like something didn't work right with the Killing Machine change, because the intent was to bring down the proc rate and make it more consistent between 2H and DW. We are investigating.
Bugger, apparently the high proc rate on the PTR is a bug. Wonder how they are gonna fix it. Could be an internal cooldown.
Well I guess its only fair, dual wield is still way above most 2H builds in dps.
It sounds to me like somebody just typed like '15' in when they should have typed '5' or something like that. I don't think they were saying 'we changed it, procs went up', I think they were saying 'it's a bug'.
The numbers are well documented on various WWS/WMO parses around the net. Gargoyle's exceed DC dps by any margin availble atm. Add in to that that the Gargoyle benefits from AP buff procs (such as trinkets/weapon enchants) in addition to Heroism, a Garg popped when your AP jumps to 7k+ and then gets Heroism is not remotely comprable to dps gains from DC's. They add far more than an imagined 7% of total damage done.
Janraea's point was that the net gain in dps from using Gargoyle was around 7%. Obviously, Gargoyle does more damage than a pile of Death Coils, which is why we use it. But while Gargoyle is up, you can't cast any DCs as you normally would. So while the Gargoyle's dps contribution can be 15% on the WWS, you have to compare it to the DCs you would have been casting with that RP for the duration if you didn't use it. That's where the 7% estimation comes from.
The interesting thing with the PPM system, I think, is going to be proc management. If, while dual wielding, we get roughly 10 PPM (modified by haste as others mentioned)-- are they spaced out pretty evenly? It seems like there'd be considerably more pressure to use a KM buff within 3-4 seconds and space out the frost abilities to be more likely to absorb them.
What about, since the HB CD is being removed we change up the rotation for the 32/39 spec? Ive seen it brought up, but pretty much skimmed over. How does the HB - (rune dump) - HB - BS(IT) - IT(BS) rotation do?
using blood tap to start the fight with a death rune, you skip over PS completely (not bad since its such low dmg) and we get an extra HB per rotation. the only loss of dmg that we get is PS, PS disease, small decrease to BS (no biggie) and slightly smaller BCB. but what we gain is an extra HB per rotation.
What about, since the HB CD is being removed we change up the rotation for the 32/39 spec? Ive seen it brought up, but pretty much skimmed over. How does the HB - (rune dump) - HB - BS(IT) - IT(BS) rotation do?
using blood tap to start the fight with a death rune, you skip over PS completely (not bad since its such low dmg) and we get an extra HB per rotation. the only loss of dmg that we get is PS, PS disease, small decrease to BS (no biggie) and slightly smaller BCB. but what we gain is an extra HB per rotation.
You are also losing damage to BCB. While I find it to be an interesting theory I don't think the test will prove it to be advantageous. However on AOE trash that is a different story. I feel like I will be casting blood tap/IT/Pest/HB/HB/rune dump rinse repeat. My big question is gonna be is it time for 0/32/39 to spec out of desecration and pick up epidemic. Before I found epidemic useless bc of HB cool-down now with it off cool-down I think that may change things pretty drastically for us.
You can't build a 32/39 and skip plague strike. That drops you to one disease, no desecration, and no reason to go so deep in Unholy. While skipping plague strike may be an option for 44/27 if your Howling Blast is good enough, it's definitely not available to any build that likely will be going 5/5 desecration if any unholy DK raids with them. Remember that Ebon Plaguebringer will overwrite crypt fever now.
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
You can't build a 32/39 and skip plague strike. That drops you to one disease, no desecration, and no reason to go so deep in Unholy. While skipping plague strike may be an option for 44/27 if your Howling Blast is good enough, it's definitely not available to any build that likely will be going 5/5 desecration if any unholy DK raids with them. Remember that Ebon Plaguebringer will overwrite crypt fever now.
well if you go deep enough for 1/3 CF, you are actually sitting at 2 diseases instead of 3. right now my guild only has me, a frost tank DK, and another dps DK who is still trying out a lot of specs. as of right now i dont have to worry bout EP overwriting my CF.
Bugger, apparently the high proc rate on the PTR is a bug. Wonder how they are gonna fix it. Could be an internal cooldown.
Well I guess its only fair, dual wield is still way above most 2H builds in dps.
The devs probably forgot about DW double-dipping on PPM when they designed the KM change. They have probably intended for both 2H and DW to chug along at 5 PPM overall, but instead MH and OH are each chugging along at 5 PPM for DW. Possible fixes include giving KM an ICD, cutting the per-hand PPM when DWing to a little above half (have to take into account the higher miss rate) when DWing (probably closest to their intended design), and decreasing the OH PPM significantly (compromise solution to make DW feel less "screwed").
Originally Posted by kurokaze
Used rotations were:
32/39: IT PS HB BS BS Dump (delay rotation if RP is available, use Rime) / IT PS HB IT IT Dump (likewise)
44/27: HB IT BS HB Dump (delay rotation if RP is available, use Rime)
Edit: A slightly better 44/27 number (~10 DPS) was found by using the listed 32/39 rotation in Unholy Presence.
I don't know if your spreadsheet models this (you may be able to simulate this on Methods' spreadsheet), but rotations of the form...
HB>IT>BS>HB(>RPdump)
...use two-way cross aggregate of BS>HB, which makes it go over 20 sec when going to a 7th GCD on either rune set except when under extreme haste (as FS GCD is not affected by haste) and Freezing Fog use often results in additional idle GCDs.
Execute line 1 once, then repeat the other two lines.
There is about a 1-sec lag/hesitation leeway in this rotation to avoid a BS>HB/IT>HB Death/Frost rune order flip. Under normal execution even if you lag/hesitate into a Death/Frost rune flip it doesn't matter because it does not cause any additional delay (beyond what you lose to lag/hesitation). The two runes will automatically flip back to the proper order on the next cycle. However, if you lag/hesitate into a rune order flip and Freezing Fog just happens to proc off that IT at the same time, using that Freezing Fog causes an idle gap similar to the HB>IT>BS>HB>(HB/RPdump) Freezing Fog use idle gap. You can macro your IT and HB to cancel Freezing Fog automatically in case of a rune order flip...
#showtooltip
/run a,b=GetRuneCooldown,GetRuneType;c,d,e=a(1);c,d,f=a(2);c,d,g=a(5);c,d,h=a(6);c=e and b(1)==4;d=f and b(2)==4;a,b,e=GetSpellCooldown("Icy Touch");if e then if g or h then cff=true else if c or d then cff=nil end end end
/use Icy Touch
#showtooltip
/run if cff then CancelUnitAura('player','Freezing Fog') end
/use Howling Blast
Note that the above macros will also automatically cancel your "cold start" line 1 Freezing Fog (which greatly simplifies your startup sequence).
Alternatively, you can make it easy on yourself and just do a PS instead (remember that the PS/IT math for DW is very different from its 2H counterpart due to a number of factors), then you only have to deal with one type of Freezing Fog contingency...
on the PTR for a few goes with each rotations i was getting aprox 2375ish DPS with the first rotation and 2340ish with the 2nd rotation (was not using gargoyle for either). both rotations are very close in DPS despite the 2nd rotation getting more rime procs due having one more IT but also has 1 more 'strike' so dodged strikes slowed it down. granted, i only did each rotation for 3-5 minutes and only did each one 3 times each. all producing very similar DPS.
EDIT:
i just tried both rotations in UH presence as well, and while the first one was lower, the 2nd rotation in UH was right at about the same DPS as it was in blood. for the overall dmg done the HB dmg was lower, but the melee, IT, and BCB all increased. also the HB and IT's had a higher crit %. which would show that haste does increase KM proc rate. it also allows for using horn of winter every CD for extra RP b/c of the faster GCD.
I've done a few hours of testing numbers on dummies in order to help me decide on presences, weapon speeds and frost strike viability when combined or not combined with runic power glyphs & talents.
The spec I am choosing next patch is going to be 18 points into Unholy, and everything else into Frost. Although Impurity + Ghoul may be higher dps I feel that there are a number of goodies in the frost tree which would simply make life easier and more fun for me. But I digress, this post isn't about spec so much.
IT PS BS BS HB
HB IT IT HB
This will likely be the rotation for my spec and for 0/44/27 and it's varients.
As you can see it generates 165 runic power glyphed/talented, 135 with either talent OR glyph, and 105 with nothing.
To begin my tests I did some groundwork, Slow/Fast and Fast/Fast (Using Fang + Crypt Blade, so not much dps difference) in both Blood and Unholy presence. I did these tests without using any runic power abilities so that I could then 'add on' the dps they would give using seperate data and information based on what GCD I had combined with the Runic Power available.
This was done on live realms, so the second part of the rotation is IT IT IT HB. Replacing a HB for an IT. The overall dps will be lower than on ptr but the trends should remain.
SLOW/FAST BLOOD
1900
SLOW/FAST UNHOLY
1665
FAST/FAST BLOOD
1900
FAST/FAST UNHOLY
1505
I then proceeded to get data for death coil & frost strike. This data was collected without KM procs and without Merciless Combat for the sake of FS.
Slow weapon:
DC = 1297 average
FS = 1154 average
Fast weapon:
DC = 1300 average
FS = 1062 average
Using these figures and the base stats gathered from the earlier tests I added them together based on the GCDs and Runic Power available like so:
SLOW/FAST BLOOD + 3 Frost strikes per 20 seconds
(No need for Chill of the Grave or Icy Touch glyph, but Frost strike glyph and 3 x FS beats 2.5 x DC per 20)
1900 + 3*Slow_FS/20 =
2073
SLOW/FAST UNHOLY + 5 frost strikes per 20 seconds
(In unholy presence we have plenty of GCD time, so there is no reason not to fully glyph/talent up and use 5 FS per 20(
1665 + 5*Slow_FS/20 =
1953
FAST/FAST BLOOD + 3 frost strikes per 20 seconds
(No need for Chill of the Grave or Icy Touch glyph, but Frost strike glyph and 3 x FS beats 2.5 x DC per 20)
1900 + 3*Fast_FS/20 =
2059
FAST/FAST UNHOLY + 5 frost strikes per 20 seconds
(In unholy presence we have plenty of GCD time, so there is no reason not to fully glyph/talent up and use 5 FS per 20(
1505 + 5*Fast_FS/20 =
1770
If I also take into consideration my HB does about 3.3k on average, 3 IT per 20 would yield roughly !.85*.85*.85 = ~40% chance to proc a free HB per 20, or 60-70dps to Unholy Presences as they would be the only ones capable of handling it.
Conclusion:
From my tests I found that even utilizing the extra GCD time to it's fullest potential as well as including the chances of using HB procs - Unholy presence could still not match the dps of Blood; using no IT glyph or Chill of the Grave. I also found that slow/fast vs fast/fast seemed to be almost indistinguishable in terms of dps.
I will be using Blood presence with 0/2 Chill of the Grave, No Icy Touch glyph. I will use Frost Strike Glyph and use the basic 105 RP per 20 for 3xFS.
Can anybody see any large errors in my data or theory?
Also, I hope this information is of some use to you guys. Feel free to delete it if not.
My understanding of rotation design and mechanics appears to be far below yours, as my eyes glaze over a bit when reading things like "two-way cross-aggregate". Then when I try your rotations on my spreadsheet the DPS appears far below that of a simple rotation like HB HB [BS IT] Dump or IT PS HB BS BS Dump / IT PS HB HB Dump. I'm not sure what to make of it, except that somehow the slightly simplified RP model I use is at fault.
I'd like to outline the capabilities and caveats of my system so that you (or someone) can explain where it needs to be improved so that it can produce a rotation that is optimal in both theory and practice. As this is somewhat off topic I will post it in the spreadsheet thread; please check there.
im using the 44/27 and still having trouble finding a good rotation ive seen lot on the forums but a hb it bs hb doesnt to seem to work cause I spend my RP on a FS or two...when I go for the second HB its still on cooldown... I was wondering if anyone could help me out
You should have points in NotD regardless if you're going 32/39. And as for corpse explosion, it does give you more aoe, but that is usually more for trash than bosses, so its benefit is up to the individual.
has anyone looked at the PPM for cinderglacier?
for a 32/39 would cinderglacier/cinderglacier be good, or a bad idea?
Or should it be crusader/cinder ? I know cinder/cinder do not stack, but does it double the procrate?
has anyone looked at the PPM for cinderglacier?
for a 32/39 would cinderglacier/cinderglacier be good, or a bad idea?
Or should it be crusader/cinder ? I know cinder/cinder do not stack, but does it double the procrate?
Procrate is not doubled as your mainhand procs cinder off yellow attacks therefore your mainhand procrate is higher than offhand procrate. Also even if it doubled the proc you would not have double the amount of usable procs due to a high chance of overwriting a previous proc and wasting it.
This is one of those questions that crops up a lot and the simple answer is right now always mainhand crusader, cinder or razor on offhand is a matter based on your raid composition.
01/10/09, 5:45 AM
Similar Threads
