[Sorry for my english.] I have few questions. If Ariastrasza did 7200 dps with rotation
IT-PS-HB-BS-BS
IT-PS-HB-IT-IT
1. Do we can told that it's best pre-patch rotation? Many ppls are using another rotation with 32/39 but his dps is still top record?
2. Isn't he using RP dump or just he doesn't mention that.
3. So I'm using that rotation but I want to ask that if I have to use the same rotation whole fight? NO changes? [except when garg is up] Because with this rotation and blood presence is HB out of CD few seconds each rotation and HB is the biggest dmg per hit, then isn't better to use it sooner? Or just fit HB to KM procs? Because after half of rotation [IT-PS-HB-BS-BS-RP dump what is 2x DC usualy] are diseases still active and HB is ready to use so why use diseases before HB and spend KM proc on IT?
After 3.0.8 I guess most will be using NotD unless they only want to see highest possible dps figure at Patchy.
Afrer 3.0.8 you get 3 free points from CF as it will be completely useless given you have Unholy DK in raid. He will also have UA so here are your 5 points for Desecration easily.
Any specific reason why you main hand (1.5) Hailstorm vs (1.6) Greathammer? I switched my 1.6 (widow) to main and hail to off, figuring the weapon speed would increase my damage a bit (bloodstrikes).
Right now i'm seeing you MH the greathammer with razorice and OH the hailstorm with FC. You should switch the runes around so that your most powerfull rune (FC) is on the mainhand. Melee specials (BS, PS) can also trigger your MH rune proc, giving a slightly higher uptime (not as high as 2h unholy sadly). OH razorice is enough to keep it up 100% of the time easily.
(this all was assuming the armory updated your items properly ofc)
Right now i'm seeing you MH the greathammer with razorice and OH the hailstorm with FC. You should switch the runes around so that your most powerfull rune (FC) is on the mainhand. Melee specials (BS, PS) can also trigger your MH rune proc, giving a slightly higher uptime (not as high as 2h unholy sadly). OH razorice is enough to keep it up 100% of the time easily.
(this all was assuming the armory updated your items properly ofc)
What's the general consensus on Cinderglacier vs Razorice?
I remember reading this post by Ren and choosing Cinderglacier for personal DPS, but if theory (and hopefully some practice) proves that they are equally effective I'll switch to please our mages.
What's the general consensus on Cinderglacier vs Razorice?
I remember reading this post by Ren and choosing Cinderglacier for personal DPS, but if theory (and hopefully some practice) proves that they are equally effective I'll switch to please our mages.
Cinderglacier is better for your personal dps then Razorice, just like ren wrote earlier, but not more then 5% mage damage. Thus the logical result still holds:
- Use Cinderglacier (Mainhand or offhand) when there is no mage present, or when you want to boast about your own dps numbers (some raid leaders apparently still look to these numbers instead of raid dps added).
- Use razorice (always Offhanded) when there are one or more mages or frost- based (2H frost and DW) DK present.
Razorice can only have 1 stack of 5 on each enemy. So, only one DK in the raid needs it. No other class can supply this debuff.
Now what I am really interested in is wether FC or CG is the best MH rune. I know this is almost absurdly difficult to test due to a very large amount of RNG variables boosting either case.
Some fast math using Ren's WWS:
- Ren had 7 Cinderglacier procs in 2,34 min. (154 sec.) I will assume 1 CG overwriting itself and each CG proc affecting 1 HB and 1 IT (smart priority rotation, pretty optimal situation), thus 6 HBs and 6 ITs.
- Razorice was not present on the boss.
HB hits: 5, 33% of total (2 CG procs), benefit from CG = 2/5*20% = 8%
HB crits: 10, 67% of total (4 CG procs), benefit from CG = 4/10*20% = 8%
8% of HB hit dmg = 5*4062*0.08 = 1624 dmg
8% of HB crit dmg = 10*12,543*0.08 = 10034 dmg total estimated benefit from CG on HB: 1624 + 10034 = 11659
Doing the same for IT:
IT hits: 7, 27% (= 1.6 CG procs), benefit from CG = 1.6/7*20% = 4.6%
IT crits: 19, 73% (= 4.38 procs), benefit from CG = 4.38/19*20% = 4.6%
4.6% of IT hits = 7*2553*0.046 = 822 dmg
4.6% of HB crits = 19*5382*0.046 = 4704 dmg total estimated benefit from CG on IT = 822 + 4704 = 5525 dmg
Total dmg benefit from CG = 11659 + 5525 = 17,184 dmg
The benefit from razorice on his dmg would be:
(HB + IT + FF dmg) * 1.05
Taking the HB and IT figures from Ren's WWS, substracting the CG benifits from them and adding 5% gives the following numbers:
Perhaps Icy reach to futher increase aoe/range radius or even 2 points in subversion for threat reduction and +crit to BS.
If you're regarding to Howling Blast with the Icy Reach radius part, the talent only increases it's range while radius stays the same unless I'm mistaken.
[Sorry for my english.] I have few questions. If Ariastrasza did 7200 dps with rotation
IT-PS-HB-BS-BS
IT-PS-HB-IT-IT
1. Do we can told that it's best pre-patch rotation? Many ppls are using another rotation with 32/39 but his dps is still top record?
2. Isn't he using RP dump or just he doesn't mention that.
3. So I'm using that rotation but I want to ask that if I have to use the same rotation whole fight? NO changes? [except when garg is up] Because with this rotation and blood presence is HB out of CD few seconds each rotation and HB is the biggest dmg per hit, then isn't better to use it sooner? Or just fit HB to KM procs? Because after half of rotation [IT-PS-HB-BS-BS-RP dump what is 2x DC usualy] are diseases still active and HB is ready to use so why use diseases before HB and spend KM proc on IT?
1. It's a simple rotation that makes it virtually impossible to fudge stuff up if you don't deviate from it. And clearly it works well on that particular fight.
2. Well yeah, he'll be using DC obviously. If he hasn't mentioned it it'll be because it should go without saying. It's probably being used either right before or right after his HB, generally.
3. IIRC he posted a WWS parse so check the number of HB compared to PS and that should tell you. If he's following the rotation to the letter rather than using a priority system then they should be pretty much equal.
If you're regarding to Howling Blast with the Icy Reach radius part, the talent only increases it's range while radius stays the same unless I'm mistaken.
Bad wording from me, meant range, not raidus of course.
Since I have not had the chance to try 32/39 on PTR and how they plan on keeping Km proc from main hand only, has anyone tried using 32/39 or 44/27 with a 2hander?
Would the heavier hitting BS and PS and FS (if 44/27 was used) and less auto attack misses outweigh the necrosis/bcb benefits that dw gets?
p.s. I haven't considered yet where we would put the 3 talent points from not using nerves of cold steel.
I've heard conflicting reports on if haste effects KM Procrate, so I went over to the PTR today and did a "napkin math test."
Method: Auto-attacking boss, slamming plague strike and blood strike. Only casting Icy touch when KM proc'd. In essence using recount to total KM procs based on number of icy touch casts.
Time: Both setups were tested for 3 minutes at a time, and 5 times overall. Results are the average km procrate.
Setup 1:
Regular gear, unholy presence. attack speed of 1.13 on each hand.
Km Procrate = 93 procs over five tests of 3 minutes each. = 18.6 procs for 3 minutes. Average 6.2 PPM
Setup 2:
Wearing only weapons, in blood presence. 1.43 speed on each mainhand (min haste i can get while spec'd 32/39)
Km Procrate = 81 procs over five tests of 3 minutes each. = 16.2 procs for 3 minutes. Average 5.4 PPM
Conclusion:
Haste does in-fact make KM proc more often.
Further testing:
I'm in no way a math man, if someone sees a horrible error in my testing method please let me know.
Open question:
Has anyone tested if blood strike or plague strike can proc KM? I tried to build a quick macro to cancel the auto attack feature after using a strike, but it doesn't seem to work and I'm basically macro retarded. My assumption is that they do, but it would be great to know for sure.
Your results match the ones I saw when I first posted about it the night the latest PTR build went up as far as haste & KM proc rate.
As far as Blood & Plague Strike, I am pretty sure they do not but I can jump on and double check. You would see a pretty noticeable difference were any melee strikes capable of proccing this ability, though.
32/39 dw fast/fast is still the best dps post patch for the following reasons
if you use a 2hander sure the 2hander has more dps than a 1hander but when you dualwield your combined dps from two 1handers isnt much off, but you gain 50% more bonus from your attack power because both of your weapons get stronger with your AP, instead of just one 2hander
i dont wanna do the math rite now, but even if a dualwielder avoids getting +hit completely and focuses on strength/ap like a 2h user, he still scales better and the extra bonus he gets from his Attack Power still outclasses the 2h user even when you include his higher chance to miss. strength/ap is the most important stat for DW DK dps because it increases the dps of all of our abilities / spells / dots. hit and crit come second.
dw does more necrosis damage than a 2hander
fast/fast is better because blood caked blade is a normalized attack. if two weapons have the same dps, and one has a weapon speed of 10 seconds and the other has a weapon speed of 1 second, over 100 seconds the slow weapon will see 3 BKB procs and the faster weapon will see 30 BKB procs. you may think the difference in damage of the BKB procs might make them equal, but because BKB is normalized that means the faster weapon will be treated as slower weapon when it comes to how much your attack power increases the damage of the blood caked strike.
in a nutshell, two weapons with equal dps will not deal equal bkb damage. the faster weapons will deal more bkb damage.however this difference is negligable at best, so a weapons DPS/strength/ap are the most important qualities. dont worry about speed too much.
32/39 dw fast/fast is still the best dps post patch for the following reasons
if you use a 2hander sure the 2hander has more dps than a 1hander but when you dualwield your combined dps from two 1handers isnt much off, but you gain 50% more bonus from your attack power because both of your weapons get stronger with your AP, instead of just one 2hander
i dont wanna do the math rite now, but even if a dualwielder avoids getting +hit completely and focuses on strength/ap like a 2h user, he still scales better and the extra bonus he gets from his Attack Power still outclasses the 2h user even when you include his higher chance to miss. strength/ap is the most important stat for DW DK dps because it increases the dps of all of our abilities / spells / dots. hit and crit come second.
dw does more necrosis damage than a 2hander
fast/fast is better because blood caked blade is a normalized attack. if two weapons have the same dps, and one has a weapon speed of 10 seconds and the other has a weapon speed of 1 second, over 100 seconds the slow weapon will see 3 BKB procs and the faster weapon will see 30 BKB procs. you may think the difference in damage of the BKB procs might make them equal, but because BKB is normalized that means the faster weapon will be treated as slower weapon when it comes to how much your attack power increases the damage of the blood caked strike.
in a nutshell, two weapons with equal dps will not deal equal bkb damage. the faster weapons will deal more bkb damage.however this difference is negligable at best, so a weapons DPS/strength/ap are the most important qualities. dont worry about speed too much.
What about slow/fast? Isn't the increased damage on PS/BS worth more than the BCB damage? What about going 44/27 slow/fast and using glyphed frost strike instead of dc? There are a number of possibilities you aren't considering, and without including hard calculations, it's difficult to assert anything with much certainty at this point.
What about slow/fast? Isn't the increased damage on PS/BS worth more than the BCB damage? What about going 44/27 slow/fast and using glyphed frost strike instead of dc? There are a number of possibilities you aren't considering, and without including hard calculations, it's difficult to assert anything with much certainty at this point.
increased damage on ps/bs mean almost nothing.
however slow/fast might be good, because fast offhand BCB procs may actually cause your mainhand to be calculated in the damage, so a faster OH to proc more MH BCB procs (if it does work like that) sounds pretty sweet.
it probably doesnt work like that though
honestly though the best way to know is next patch, do patchwerk one week with 32/39 then do it next week with a different spec and compare dps
I would say that the superior dps of 32/39 spec is the result of carefully taking KM procs with every HB possible, together with great pet control and uptime. (anecdotal evidence: I had ~86% crit with HB on last patchwerk, with only 1 hit, 1 miss, and rest crits.)
Necrosis and BCB are only 3-4% damage, nice perks I'd say, but they don't make or break the 32/39 dw build.
I would say that the superior dps of 32/39 spec is the result of carefully taking KM procs with every HB possible, together with great pet control and uptime. (anecdotal evidence: I had ~86% crit with HB on last patchwerk, with only 1 hit, 1 miss, and rest crits.)
Necrosis and BCB are only 3-4% damage, nice perks I'd say, but they don't make or break the 32/39 dw build.
i think on fights like patchwerk and even mobile fights, desecration is much more valuable than most think
and its a bunch of these 4% things which add up a lot
but i guess best way to know is test both builds one week and the other
I would like to know for post patch which should be today I hear:
For 32/39 or (my fav) 44/27 what amount of hit to you want to cap at. Previosly I was under the assumption that you wanted no more then 450, and 450 was exactly where you wanted to be for DK dw specs. Any more and your gimping your ap and crit, any less and you were jsut missing to much. Is that still the same post patch, and even more so is that even right pre patch? If not, what amount of hit do you want to stop at? Thanks
Desecration has been argued over this and unholy thread a lot. It's not a bad talents, but it's not a really good one either.
Even if you have 100% uptime on Desecration, like on Patchwerk, it's still not 5% increase in damage, because it has shorter duration that the space between two PS in the typical dw rotation. Even in this scenario it's worth less than 1% per talent (blizz measurement).
Add some movement to the fight, breaks in rotations, possible postponing of PS (for HB when KM is up, dodged PS), etc.. and value of Desecration goes further down.
The thing is blizz stated 32/39 is a broken spec atm, and nerfs to stop it consist of KM nerf and Garg nerf.
Gargoyle nerfing has been expected for a while, and Killing Machine nerf is directly pointed at fast/fast DW builds because almost every HB is a crit (and many IT's too).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but not with IMOs, but some facts.
I would like to know for post patch which should be today I hear:
For 32/39 or (my fav) 44/27 what amount of hit to you want to cap at. Previosly I was under the assumption that you wanted no more then 450, and 450 was exactly where you wanted to be for DK dw specs. Any more and your gimping your ap and crit, any less and you were jsut missing to much. Is that still the same post patch, and even more so is that even right pre patch? If not, what amount of hit do you want to stop at? Thanks
Nothing changes with hit rating in the patch (read patch notes). Actually you want no more than 8% for specials (and raid buffs should cover the rest).
What kind of sigil is everyone going to be useing when the patch is live? The IT one looks pretty nice, but like 5% crit with the new sigil badge oen is alot of crit rating. So it would be better for IT sigil for 32/39 and badge sigil for 44/27 correct?
however slow/fast might be good, because fast offhand BCB procs may actually cause your mainhand to be calculated in the damage, so a faster OH to proc more MH BCB procs (if it does work like that) sounds pretty sweet.
This has been fixed on PTR. From what I see, if your OH procs BCB, it will be based on your OH's damage now.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
So it looks like the patch is today. For those of you that have been on the PTR, is 0/32/39 still the highest DPS spec, or should we be looking at a different spec for max DPS now?
Has anyone tested if blood strike or plague strike can proc KM? I tried to build a quick macro to cancel the auto attack feature after using a strike, but it doesn't seem to work and I'm basically macro retarded. My assumption is that they do, but it would be great to know for sure.
With your numbers I would say "No".
KM 5/5 is a 5 ppm according to blizz. With 1.5->1.43 its a 4.8% speed increase which gives a theoretical boost to 5.25 ppm and with 1.13 thats a 33.7% boost to a theoretical 6.64 ppm. Considering the small sample size your numbers are pretty close to that.
With base 1.5 weapon speed you do 40 attacks each minute.
Now if KM would proc of specials and you were spamming them (which means 2 PS and 2 BS every 10 secs, or 24 attacks in one minute. Which should also all use the autoattack chance per special. So instead of 40 attacks per minute you would have 64, all with the same chance per attack to proc KM. Which would result in a over 50% higher KM procrate. At the 1.43 speed tests you would have had instead of 5.4 ppm something in the area of 7-8 ppm.
Best way to test that for sure would be simply to autoattack the dummy for a few mins and see if doing that gives you a lower ppm than you get when spamming PS/BS in addition to autoattack.
01/19/09, 7:50 AM
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