This questions was asked before but I didn't see an answer.
Where is BCB falling for you guys? Is it significant for you at all? With a two hander, I don't see it as particularly impressive, but I thought with a pair of one handers and significant haste, its damage would be considerably more impressive. Not sure how that would for everyone, though...
@Above posters:
Impurity is one of the strongest 5-points-talents in a spell-based build, 25% more scaling from AP is very strong, no matter how you turn it. DW specs are spell-based because your weapon damage is pretty low so it's logically a very strong DW talent.
Originally Posted by Hidden
Even as DW hit isn't really a good stat when you're spell hit capped. So if you're not speccing Master of Ghouls, Virulence is the superior talent unless you're spellhitcapped without speccing Virulence or gemming/enchanting for hit.
Keep in mind that as you add more +haste, your white swings become a higher and higher percentage of your damage, and therefore +hit becomes more and more valuable. With my +haste, haste talents, and Unholy Presence, I'm guessing that white damage makes up roughly 30% of my damage (but this number isn't backed by logs; I need to do a WWS session). The more haste you get, the more important it is to hitcap your autoattacks.
I'm currently speccing 3 points into Virulence for the simple reason that I'm not spell hit capped without it. In my DW build you'll want to go for the spell hit cap, not the autohit cap. Even as DW hit isn't really a good stat when you're spell hit capped. So if you're not speccing Master of Ghouls, Virulence is the superior talent unless you're spellhitcapped without speccing Virulence or gemming/enchanting for hit.
You're also wrong saying that I lose 5% Icy Touch crit, with Killing Machine giving a 100% crit buff, the 5% crit won't apply to most ITs anyway. So another point into that talent wouldn't increase my average IT crit chance from 90% to 95% but rather something like from 90% to 91%. Also all the benefits you listed are worse in a pure DPS scenario than one single point in Gargoyle, two points in Impurity or one point in Master of Ghouls - in my build you're getting Gargoyle, 5 points in Impurity and Master of Ghouls if you want it. The spreadsheet shows my build as hundreds of DPS ahead of that DPS compendium build.
These two things seem kind of counterintuitive. If +hit is a high-value stat until you get to the spell hit cap, why would you put your most limited resource (talent points) into boosting just spell hit (Virulence) when you could instead just stack more +hit to reach the spellhit cap, and spend the talent points elsewhere? If Virulence was a straight +3% hit it'd be a no-brainer, but I would certainly not take gear that had 'only spell hit' on it. Why take a talent that does?
Killing Machine doesn't have 100% uptime, and Howling Blast has a 6s cooldown. You'll often be doing two Icy Touches in one rotation, and one of them won't get the Killing Machine proc. Or both of them won't, because Howling Blast will have taken in. Or you won't have Killing Machine up yet, because you're using Icy Touch at range or at the start of combat. +crit to Icy Touch doesn't seem worthless.
These two things seem kind of counterintuitive. If +hit is a high-value stat until you get to the spell hit cap, why would you put your most limited resource (talent points) into boosting just spell hit (Virulence) when you could instead just stack more +hit to reach the spellhit cap, and spend the talent points elsewhere? If Virulence was a straight +3% hit it'd be a no-brainer, but I would certainly not take gear that had 'only spell hit' on it. Why take a talent that does?
Killing Machine doesn't have 100% uptime, and Howling Blast has a 6s cooldown. You'll often be doing two Icy Touches in one rotation, and one of them won't get the Killing Machine proc. Or both of them won't, because Howling Blast will have taken in. Or you won't have Killing Machine up yet, because you're using Icy Touch at range or at the start of combat. +crit to Icy Touch doesn't seem worthless.
Remember, the comparison was about 14/31/26 and 15/37/19, in both builds there is no Master of Ghouls (my Master of Ghouls modification doesn't have 3/3 Virulence) so it's mostly 3% spell hit vs. 3% Strength, I prefer capping my spell hit over having an additional 30 Strength.
As both builds don't have a Death Runes talent, both don't use multiple Icy Touches in a row and so nearly all IT/HB are affected by Killing Machine, making the 5% crit talent pretty weak.
@Larry:
I'm sure there will be no point in WotLK where you have that good gear that you'll have hit rating as the highest rated stat. Other DW classes benefit much more from white hits and in Sunwell with the new talents no class had hit rating as the strongest DPS stat after being yellow-capped until they were autohit capped.
Pretty impressive. Appearently he is Dual-wield tri-spec (the classic one).
Do you even know Sartharion without Drakes up? When you do Sartharion without Drakes, it's practically Patchwerk where a DK can AoE at the same time - the perfect DK fight. I've easily done >4k DPS in the first week of WotLK there.
Do you even know Sartharion without Drakes up? When you do Sartharion without Drakes, it's practically Patchwerk where a DK can AoE at the same time - the perfect DK fight. I've easily done >4k DPS in the first week of WotLK there.
Looking at Wow Web Stats makes me think he didn't aoe at all on Sartharion besides Howling Blast.
3.8k single target is OK, but still not overly impressive, I just noticed he's in full enchanted level 80 epic gear besides his two rings. He's nearly got the spec I've been promoting here all the time though - not the classic one as suggested above.
3.8k single target is OK, but still not overly impressive, I just noticed he's in full enchanted level 80 epic gear besides his two rings. He's nearly got the spec I've been promoting here all the time though - not the classic one as suggested above.
Ah yes, he changed his spec a bit. If you see a few posts later on that thread he has.
Remember, the comparison was about 14/31/26 and 15/37/19, in both builds there is no Master of Ghouls (my Master of Ghouls modification doesn't have 3/3 Virulence) so it's mostly 3% spell hit vs. 3% Strength, I prefer capping my spell hit over having an additional 30 Strength.
As both builds don't have a Death Runes talent, both don't use multiple Icy Touches in a row and so nearly all IT/HB are affected by Killing Machine, making the 5% crit talent pretty weak.
I getcha. I would definitely have 3% spellhit over 3% Strength right now, too, although that might change when the next tier of raiding opens and hit rating becomes less scarce.
I noticed in your spec you went with lichborne instead of another point into annihilation. Lichborne is really only useful if your tanking, putting the extra point into Annihilation will give you a nice boost in your dps. Also what is your rotation with this spec? If your using IT as your main dmg ability then you dont need to get Epidemic and should put more points into Virulence until you get the spell hit cap. The Unholy Aura talent isnt really useful in raid environment IMO so instead I would put 2 points into Night of the Dead since your probably going to lose your ghoul several times in a raid and this would keep your Ghoul down time to a minimum. Since you specced for a perma-ghoul then keeping him up at all times in a raid will up your dps as well.
I didn't really see any direct mention to my question about this spec that I have so here it is again. Sorry if posting it again is a pain. Just wanna know if it's viable or not and what's good or bad about it.
If a magical damage rotation using Blood Presence is wanted, this may be a rotation to use:
First off, this assumes you take both Chill of the Grave and Epidemic. You use the Icy Touch glyph and use Blood Tap prior to the opening salvo. I'm assuming you start at 0 runic power and that you summon your ghoul to start the fight to begin with 20 runic power using the Glyph.
You get 4 Icy Touchs, 4 Death Coils, 2 Howling Blasts, 2 Blood Strikes, and 1 Plague Strike. You generate 170 runic power and use 160.
Since most duel-wield builds go into Unholy for Blood-Caked Blade and most go deep enough for Howling Blast in Frost, this rotation seems ideal for a magic based arsenal. Ten of thirteen abilities used don't take weapon damage into account making it ideal for a duel-wielding setup.
Last edited by Orlgin : 12/06/08 at 3:51 AM.
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I noticed in your spec you went with lichborne instead of another point into annihilation. Lichborne is really only useful if your tanking, putting the extra point into Annihilation will give you a nice boost in your dps. Also what is your rotation with this spec? If your using IT as your main dmg ability then you dont need to get Epidemic and should put more points into Virulence until you get the spell hit cap. The Unholy Aura talent isnt really useful in raid environment IMO so instead I would put 2 points into Night of the Dead since your probably going to lose your ghoul several times in a raid and this would keep your Ghoul down time to a minimum. Since you specced for a perma-ghoul then keeping him up at all times in a raid will up your dps as well.
BS and PS are only a very small part of my dps, around 6% on fights where i can focus on my runes and not moving around to much, so an additional point in annihilation is a very very small dps increse. I am currently over the spellhit cap even without talents wich is why i dropped a few points in virulence. And yes lichborne and scourge strike are only nifty talents ive picked up later wich makes this specc a decent tank specc aswell. I should have linked my old specc but it was late so i just took the specc im using atm. Putting points into night of the dead was something i completly missed and will have to look into it, but unholy aura is far from useless imo and ive seen calculations saying it adds 350-400 raiddps, wich is about the same amount of dps my ghoul does.
But discussing personal tastes wont lead anywhere =P Thanks for the feedback though, it will help me improve my specc. Im using rune of the fallen crusader on mh and rune of razorice on my oh weapon.
I have not fully read each post but I’ve taken a look at the suggested builds and the talent discussion in this thread.
As soon as I have two good 1h weapons I am going to try a dw spec. Having read the dps compendium I feel (like many others here) that the suggested dw build is far from optimal.
I recently opened a thread for dw stat weighting discussion in the german DK forums that has brought up some good thoughts for dw builds.
The build suggested by the dps compendium focuses too much on improving Obliterate. Using Obliterate in a HB dw build as the default attack seems wrong with the lower dps of 1hand weapons as HB will always do more damage with Frost Fever. Even with Ulduar weapons I doubt Obliterate would ever do more damage. The other problem with this build is that HB and DC aren’t improved through Impurity and that you miss a powerful Ghoul.
Judging from BC experiences with dps classes, the builds that profit the most from gear also scale best. This build is for now and the future unless big nerfs to key elements are made. In the case of phys dps dealers, focusing on white dam is the best way to scale with gear. The good thing about the DK is that his spells also scale very well, especially with 5/5 Impurity.
This build only uses HB in the following rotation:
PS – IT – BS – BS - HB - (OB if Rime was up) – DC
Instead of improving Obliterate, maxing out Rime and Dark Conviction I use the points for the Gargoyle and buffing my DC und HB (like some other builds). I only put 1/3 in Virulence. With me being overcapped anyway and a SP in our raids, that will work out just fine. I’m going for something around 400 hit to improve my white dam.
As you see this build uses a permanent, improved ghoul. I figured this was worth giving up 2% crit (I almost have 30% unbuffed now, more than enough) and 2 pts in Rime for a “real” Ghoul. An unbuffed, unskilled Ghoul does what…around 250 dps? With it permanently active, scaling with it’s owner and buffed by talents the dps from these few points should be much bigger than anything else I could spec.
What I am still thinking about is Rime. First of all, is there enough free space in the rotation for an additional HB? If not, I’ll go with Deathchill instead. If there is, there might be a dps issue. How much dps would I lose without 2 more points in Rime, considering it also buffs IT? Of course I could just use HB from Rime and then OB with runes, as it doesn't matter if the diseases are gone at the end of a cycle.
I would appreciate some info on if the ghoul talents outweigh the dps lost by not maxing out Rime.
One more word on builds that do not go deeper into blood for dw: A large amount of dw build’s dps is white. Bladed Armor massively increases this damage and is an even greater boon with 5/5 impurity. I see no way around taking 5/5 Bladed Armor.
Also, how would this build compare to a HB/BS Frost/Unholy build with death runes? Is my build competitive? I don’t have a good spread sheet or any at all, so I need to rely on you guys to to the math .
P.S. Runes would be Cinderglacier/Razorice? And excuse my “rough” English, I’m german .
Even if you're only using it "when Rime procs", it seems a little silly to use Obliterate in that rotation since using it will eat your Frost Fever for the HB to follow, don't you think? I don't see why you wouldn't simply take Acclimation.
Originally Posted by Apate
Yeah, I'm barely OK with myself being in the room while I have sex
This is my first post on these forums, and I have been perusing this thread for quite some time now, and was wondering if anyone could tell me about what hit rating or percent would be optimal for a build such as this one:
What I mean to ask is would it be worthwhile to stop after reaching the spell hit capped or would it be worthwhile to go for as much hit as possible to maximize your offhands hits?
Thanks for any help or answer to my questions.
Edit: Basically what I am asking is would it be worthwhile to gem for hit past both hit caps or would it be more beneficial to gem for straight 16 strength gems?
I just saw a hint on a change that would be exceptionally nice for DW builds that use Blood of the North/Reaping.
Howling Blast's cooldown is too long and it's damage is too little, please buff it
In the beta, we found that it was hard to get Frost knights to use both Howling Blast and Obliterate. Too often they just went with Howling Blast over and over. The numbers may have changed enough since that time that it’s no longer a problem.
This would mean that instead of using OB on a Rime proc we could continue to use HB. And with Death Runes we could put two or three in the second rotation.
Even currently, IT and PS are always much more powerful uses of those runes than OB. So I dont see why you would use OB at all unless you are worried about GCD. Although it seemed to me like most are using unholy pres for this reason?
If HB had its cd removed, then that would be extremely interesting. Then I think epidemic would be worth it since HB is the best use of those runes. But somehow I cant see this happening, as that would make frost AOE extremely overpowered. That post seems confusing to me, because he never really states what hes trying to say there.
@killavx7: hit rating's value drops significantly once you hit the spell hit cap; while additional hit isn't a waste, I'd prefer strength or crit once I'd reached that point. Don't overlook expertise, either–it's a very valuable stat until you've got enough to prevent enemy dodges.
I've just been browsing through the whole thread again. Is there any solid data yet on what is best:
1) FS+Guile of Gorefiend+Garg
2) DC+Guile of Gorefiend+Garg+Impurity+Master of Ghouls
3) DC+Bladed Armor+Garg+Impurity+Master of Ghouls 12/32/27 (this is what I currently use, 4400 DPS @ Patchwerk)
From a pure dps standpoint I would love taking 0/44/27 and have FS, Guile, Garg, Impurity and Master of Ghouls...but I guess i'd be overaggroing permanently.
Concerning the presence discussion: After testing unholy and blood presence on the nemesis dummy with my build each for 4mins the difference in dps is about ZERO. I guess stacking more haste would go in favor of blood presence, stacking more hit for unholy presence. blood will scale better with gear. For testing I used Fallen Crusader / Cinderglacier.
I've just been browsing through the whole thread again. Is there any solid data yet on what is best:
1) FS+Guile of Gorefiend+Garg
2) DC+Guile of Gorefiend+Garg+Impurity+Master of Ghouls
3) DC+Bladed Armor+Garg+Impurity+Master of Ghouls 12/32/27 (this is what I currently use, 4400 DPS @ Patchwerk)
From a pure dps standpoint I would love taking 0/44/27 and have FS, Guile, Garg, Impurity and Master of Ghouls...but I guess i'd be overaggroing permanently.
Concerning the presence discussion: After testing unholy and blood presence on the nemesis dummy with my build each for 4mins the difference in dps is about ZERO. I guess stacking more haste would go in favor of blood presence, stacking more hit for unholy presence. blood will scale better with gear. For testing I used Fallen Crusader / Cinderglacier.
Can you link the 12/32/27 build? I'm really curious about this since I've been toying with a 0/44/27, but want to make sure that I'm picking the "best" build out there, or at least one of the most competitive.
12/05/08, 11:25 AM
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