I w as the cookie cutter dw spec of 0/32/39 with IT Sigil and Blood Pressence last night and was testing my dps on the boss dummy in Ebon Hold. My rotation was...
PS IT BS BS HB DC
PS IT IT IT HB DC
and it produced approx. 2200 dps
I changed my rotation to...
PS IT BS BS IT DC
PS IT IT IT IT DC
and it produced 2350 dps
I was wondering if anyone else had the same results? If so, would a tri-spec like 12/20/39 be viable? My guild has a unholy dk raiding with us every night so I took 0/20/51 into consideration already.
What about using the same spec, but only popping HB when KM procs?
if a DK has 3/3 CF, and there's no DK in the raid that has EP, but there's a moonkin in the raid.
the end result will be 30% more disease damage AND 12% more spell damage to the whole raid, which is equal to having EP
then why even bother to get EP
Yes, but u dont get the 3% crit chance with weapons and spells. In addition to, you cant spread ebon plague over all targets, which is very usefull in aoe-situations.
Here's my latest tests:
I've done 0/20/51, 0/32/39 and 0/44/27 with both DW and 2H for comparison.
All tests were done with Fast/Fast Fallen Crusader/Razorice with a friend of mine supplying 3/3 cryptfever & 3/3 ebon plague. (I think we can all be 99% sure of having those up in a real raid situation regardless of spec).
2H 0/20/51 - 2503dps
DW 0/20/51 - 2531dps
2H 0/32/39 - 2876dps
DW 0/32/39 - 2960dps
2H 0/44/27 - 2879dps
DW 0/44/27 - 2992dps
I was very surprised to see the 0/44/27 build high up on dps, and with a fast main hand for Frost Strikes!
I will have to find a slow main hand and try 0/44/27 more I think.
Here's my latest tests:
I've done 0/20/51, 0/32/39 and 0/44/27 with both DW and 2H for comparison.
All tests were done with Fast/Fast Fallen Crusader/Razorice with a friend of mine supplying 3/3 cryptfever & 3/3 ebon plague. (I think we can all be 99% sure of having those up in a real raid situation regardless of spec).
2H 0/20/51 - 2503dps
DW 0/20/51 - 2531dps
2H 0/32/39 - 2876dps
DW 0/32/39 - 2960dps
2H 0/44/27 - 2879dps
DW 0/44/27 - 2992dps
I was very surprised to see the 0/44/27 build high up on dps, and with a fast main hand for Frost Strikes!
I will have to find a slow main hand and try 0/44/27 more I think.
Were these tests done after the patch? Since getting the patch, someone in my guild mentioned that they removed the chance for an offhand weapon to proc Killing Machine and that slower weapons have a higher chance of proccing KM. Is it safe to assume that fast/fast, while a good combination, shouldn't necessarily be the primary speed set of a dual wield spec? I'm still trying to figure out exactly which spec will put out the most DPS for me, so any input about these tests you've run - gear level, weapons you're using, etc. would be very helpful to me. Thanks!
Yes, but u dont get the 3% crit chance with weapons and spells. In addition to, you cant spread ebon plague over all targets, which is very usefull in aoe-situations.
P.S. It is 13% more spell damage
but in order to get 3/3 EP, you lose desecration. for example this build: link
but without EP you get 5/5 desecration in addition to 3/3 WP as well: link
so the tradeoff is
3% crit and 30% disease damage and 30% damage from PS/bloodboil
vs
5% damage and 60% more disease crit damage
assume this build is a IT spam build, frost fever ticks is ignorable
only disease damage is from blood plague
let's assume it accounts for 5% of overall dps
let's also assume PS hits for 3% of overall dps
and lastly a typical DW DK has about 30% melee crit rate
in ideal situation
first build gives about 3%+1.5%+1% = 5.4% overall dps increase
second build gives about 5%+2% = 7% overall dps increase
on single target fights the disease spreading is irrelevant (which is most of the case)
not to mention: this build pairs up perfectly with this build, a typical 2h dps build with unholy aura
and the gap is even closer because the 2nd dk provides CF
Last edited by seraphthrone : 01/21/09 at 2:30 PM.
Were these tests done after the patch? Since getting the patch, someone in my guild mentioned that they removed the chance for an offhand weapon to proc Killing Machine and that slower weapons have a higher chance of proccing KM. Is it safe to assume that fast/fast, while a good combination, shouldn't necessarily be the primary speed set of a dual wield spec? I'm still trying to figure out exactly which spec will put out the most DPS for me, so any input about these tests you've run - gear level, weapons you're using, etc. would be very helpful to me. Thanks!
Offhand can proc KM. The definition of PPM is that slower weapons have a higher chance because they swing less...Thus regardless of what weapon speed you are using, you get the same amount of procs.
Also, I was no impressed with 44/27 2h spec. I pulled 4300 on patch with flask/food (without sunders/enhance shammie, however). I was able to pull 4800 over 3:30 pre patch, something around 5.5-5.7 if it was 2:30.
Here's my latest tests:
I've done 0/20/51, 0/32/39 and 0/44/27 with both DW and 2H for comparison.
All tests were done with Fast/Fast Fallen Crusader/Razorice with a friend of mine supplying 3/3 cryptfever & 3/3 ebon plague. (I think we can all be 99% sure of having those up in a real raid situation regardless of spec).
I'm not sure how fair of a test that is. If you're going to provide EP for 44/27, you should probably provide Icy Talons for 20/51.
I'm not sure how fair of a test that is. If you're going to provide EP for 44/27, you should probably provide Icy Talons for 20/51.
That's a very good point, I totally forgot about that. We can give a rough estimate based on what we know my melee % was as those specs - between 15% and 22% depending on 2H vs DW. It'd probably add a good 5% overall dps at least, but it's still not enough to start beating down the other specs, I think.
I have been thinking of a new build because of the nerf to HB. I was thinking, why spend an extra 22 points in Frost when the skill isn't that attractive? I was thinking about people spamming IT and rotations and stuff. All of the rotations start out with IT and PS. It seems that IT only has about 4-5 skills attached to it. IIT, Glacier Rot, and Black Ice are the major ones. Where as PS has almost the whole Unholy tree attached to it VS, Epid, Outbreak, Desecration, NotD, Rage, CF/EP can be thrown in too). Which led me to think, why not spam PS instead of IT?
I need some help with this. Everything seems to be GREAT in my head, but in-game they sometime suck. I haven't tried any testing...this is 100% theorycrafting.
Here is the build that I have come up with 0/10/61
I am having trouble with the rotation and would love for this to be a DW build, but may be best as 2hd:
Time (sec) 2B/2F/2U/0D RP RP totals Reset time (Sec) Reset Runes
0 PS 2B/2F/1U/0D 15 15 10 U
1 IT 2B/1F/1U/0D 20 35 11 F
2 BS 1B/1F/1U/0D 10 45 12 D
3 UB 1B/1F/1U/0D -40 5
4 SS 1B/0F/0U/0D 20 25 14 UF
5 BS 0B/0F/0U/0D 10 35 15 D
6 Open
7 Open
8 Open
9 Open
10 PS 0B/0F/0U/0D 15 50 20 U
11 DC 0B/1F/0U/0D -40 10
12 SS 0B/0F/0U/0D 20 30 22 BF
13 Open 0B/0F/0U/0D 0 30
14 SS 0B/0F/0U/0D 20 50 24 UF
15 PS 0B/0F/0U/0D 15 65 25 B
16 DC 0B/0F/0U/0D -40 15
17 Open
18 Open
19 Open
20 PS 0B/0F/0U/0D 15 30 30
Sorry about the formatting:
I was using these numbers with the IT, Ghoul, & PS Glyphs. Like I said, I'm not quite sure about this rotation and even if this is feasible. I am pretty much throwing this idea out there to see what people think. Anyway, pound away...I won't take offense.
I have been thinking of a new build because of the nerf to HB. I was thinking, why spend an extra 22 points in Frost when the skill isn't that attractive? I was thinking about people spamming IT and rotations and stuff. All of the rotations start out with IT and PS. It seems that IT only has about 4-5 skills attached to it. IIT, Glacier Rot, and Black Ice are the major ones. Where as PS has almost the whole Unholy tree attached to it VS, Epid, Outbreak, Desecration, NotD, Rage, CF/EP can be thrown in too). Which led me to think, why not spam PS instead of IT?
Is this meant for DW because one flaw I already see is that PS and SS will do more damage with a 2hander.
Ok Everyone, Critisism is much welcomed. <stuff about plague strike>
I've reported your post for being a spec post (see the announcements if you're wondering why), but I feel the need to clarify why this spec would be so ridiculously bad that it's not even worth considering:
- Plague strike is 30% weapon damage, modified by armour.
- Dual wield uses two one handed weapons which do less damage individually than a single two handed weapon, instantly making this of less worth to DW than 2h.
- Icy Touch/Howling Blast are spells, being completely independant of weapon damage (see above point), which is why most dual wield builds focus on them.
- The only reason plague strike is worth considering normally is due to the disease. You're refreshing the disease every 5 seconds in your rotation, which makes it deal even more pitiful damage.
The more I think about it, the more I think your post is actually a troll.
Also, can people please not quote entire page posts when replying. It makes the forums very unreadable, and seems to happen a lot in both this post and some of the other DK threads.
Offhand can proc KM. The definition of PPM is that slower weapons have a higher chance because they swing less...Thus regardless of what weapon speed you are using, you get the same amount of procs.
Also, I was no impressed with 44/27 2h spec. I pulled 4300 on patch with flask/food (without sunders/enhance shammie, however). I was able to pull 4800 over 3:30 pre patch, something around 5.5-5.7 if it was 2:30.
So the patch didn't kill offhand procs? I must have been lied to. In anycase, I'm trying to find the best build for DPS output for dual wielding. I have fast/fast (Avool's sword and Grasscutter) and 2 greens that need replacing, but other than that i'm in heroic blues and emblem/raid epics. Can see my build through my armory.
I've reported your post for being a spec post (see the announcements if you're wondering why), but I feel the need to clarify why this spec would be so ridiculously bad that it's not even worth considering:
- Plague strike is 30% weapon damage, modified by armour.
- Dual wield uses two one handed weapons which do less damage individually than a single two handed weapon, instantly making this of less worth to DW than 2h.
- Icy Touch/Howling Blast are spells, being completely independant of weapon damage (see above point), which is why most dual wield builds focus on them.
- The only reason plague strike is worth considering normally is due to the disease. You're refreshing the disease every 5 seconds in your rotation, which makes it deal even more pitiful damage.
The more I think about it, the more I think your post is actually a troll.
Also, can people please not quote entire page posts when replying. It makes the forums very unreadable, and seems to happen a lot in both this post and some of the other DK threads.
I really don't think he's a troll. Take a gander at his armory.
Having a good armory in no way reduces your responsibility to follow the rules of posting (i.e. no 'check out my untested spec' posts). There are lots of people trying to figure out what spec's are the best after the changes of the 3.0.8 patch. Since yesterday this thread has been filled with questions which basically boil down to:
"Tell me what to spec plz"
The valuable posts will be those that provide new WWS parses and rotations, testing specs, rather than asking for new ones. The best way for us to move the process forward is to conduct testing yourselves, post your gear/spec and numbers. Only then will we be able to find our new raid viables specs.
So the patch didn't kill offhand procs? I must have been lied to. In anycase, I'm trying to find the best build for DPS output for dual wielding. I have fast/fast (Avool's sword and Grasscutter) and 2 greens that need replacing, but other than that i'm in heroic blues and emblem/raid epics. Can see my build through my armory.
I believe there was a bug of some kind in the last PTR build that was causing the OH not to proc Killing Machine. I doubt you were lied to, they were probably just misinformed.
This is a DUAL WIELD BUILD thread...I was just throwing a build out there.
BTW many of the 32/39 and 44/27 builds use weapon based spells.
Thank you for the replies though.
No, no, I was commenting on slow oh fast mh. But though that was admittedly not a constructive comment, I do have to agree with the previous arguments against your spec. Plague strike is arguably the weakest skill in a death knight's arsenal, and while there are plenty of enhancements you can make to PS, none of them make it viable as a main DPS skill. There are too many cons when you look at it-- plague strike is mitigated by armor, the enhancements are based on a percentage of a pitifully weak skill to begin with, and besides all that, it's simply just weak. If it has the same rune cost as IT, but does far less damage AND you have to waste countless talent points enhancing it just to make it approach from a distance the DPS provided by IT, why bother?
as 32/39, maxed epidemic(>.<), I came up with the following on the boss target dummy:
PS-IT-HB-BS-BS-dump-HB-IT-PS-DC-HB-dump with horn+garg and using rime procs during rp dump, blood presence, I pulled 2890dps over 3 minutes.
Same rotation using unholy presence:
2855DPS (mega surprised at this)
IT priority, using HB on rime procs, BS when blood runes are up, PS as last priority (only use when not enough rp for dc/no blood runes up)
2828dps- blood presence
2811dps- unholy presence.
I was really surprised at how closely unholy presence compared, and I'm willing to bet if I had better weapons (dual hatestrike right now - last laugh/hailstorm or similar would be preferable) that unholy presence would pull ahead on the test dummy do to increased autoattack damage.
Without Night of the dead talent, your pet is guaranteed to die during fights with most of raid bosses. Also from limited test (malyos/sarth), night of the dead seems to affect the gargoyle as well. So when you do your tests, don't use your pet if you are spec'ed 44/27. Or calculate reduced uptime for ghoul and reduce the overall dps.
Someone already mentioned and I aggree; night of the dead is one of the best talents available to deep unholy point per point. You can resummon pet after 10 plague strikes and use army of the dead every 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes. It means you can use aotd for every boss.
When comparing 44/27 and 32/39, please keep that in mind.
So many undocumented changes in the Last patch, I am still trying to incorporate them into my build.
Foremost, the changes to Glyph of the Ghoul (now uses 40% of your STR instead of 20% and adds 40% stam to boot), and the increase to Necrosis damage (doubled from 10% at 5/5 to 20% at 5/5)
I have moved to a Slow/Slow build for testing now that KM has moved to PPM. Rationale being that even though the majority of damage in my spec (variation of 32/39) comes from non-weapon based attacks, BCB blood strike and plague strike are all based on weapon damage.) The only CON I can think of is increased time to stack the Frost vulnerability debuff from my offhand.
I did want to bring up a few questions regarding rotations for HB reliant specs.
I had seen a mention earlier in this thread that potentially you could rotate HB in every 5s. As far as I know the only way to do this would be to swap to unholy presence, which I have found to be a dps decrease for my rotations. I could have sworn that haste did not affect the melee GCD, so even if you could stack enough haste to bring your spell based attacks (HB, IT, BB, Pest, DC) to 1s, you would still have to contend with the 1.5s GCD on Plague strike, and bloodstrike.
Am I missing something here? or is there a way we can actually take advantage of this new 5s cooldown, without having to delay attacks to hit HB on every cooldown. As far as I can see there is virtually no difference from it having a 6s cooldown. In most portions of a rotation I end up delaying HB past its 5s refresh to avoid idle time in my rotation (and later refresh on my runes)
Is it feasable for us to reach a level of haste (including generic haste from frost) that we can fit in full dps rotations AND utilize the 5-6s cooldown of HB?
01/21/09, 1:47 PM
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