Boldin

I want to use a 0/33/38 spec but there are no other unholy DK's in the raid so UA and I think CF would be useful (ive been blood since 55 so not sure on UH stuff).
Is there anyway to incorporate those things into this build? Or is there a deep unholy DW spec that is still viable post patch? Would love for someone to help me out here, im going to level my 1hand mace skill right now :p

 

Winco

Its been mentioned many times, the 0/20/50 build will get you EP. You can't get HB and EP at the same time.

Its hard to say with HB not displaying the CD properly, but as far as I can tell I was hitting it on every CD.

 

Boldin

Can you link this spec? I've been searching the thread and can't find a link for it. search doesnt work with 0/20/50 either

 

Furiousk

How?

Internal cooldown on abilities before haste is 1.5s, even with the frost haste bonus your looking at 1.4s+ refresh or so and that does not incorporate abilities whose GCD cannot be reduced (melee attacks, unless this has changed?)

How do you fit in 4 attacks between each HB refresh? the alternative is you do three attacks, and have a small dead space before your HB on cooldown.

Are you in unholy presence? do you have a huge amount of haste stacked?

 

Winco

I didn't say I was. I said as far as I could tell, I was. Its hard to judge when Howling Blast always shows that it is ready. And I was in Blood Presence.

@Boldin - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

Janraea

The usual incarnation is:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

 

Nerub

Exactly, for a non-simulated raid situation 32/39 is very likely still superior when you look at the overall damage of all bossfights.

The only concern I have with Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow is that currently the highest DPS one-hand weapon is Last Laugh (Wowhead is not working for some reason) which is pretty fast. Unfortunately I have no acceptable slow MH so I can't do any comparison tests if the speed difference is worth the dps difference.

 

Gbyrd

Has anyone else Necrosis doing 1 damage? Is this what its suppose to do? I never noticed it before the patch but i am noticing it now any ideas? I'm guessing its broken.

 

opacita

I like that people are showing their dummy test results with their gear selection - That's a start in the right direction. I should mention, however, that testing dummies are actually a pretty bad measure of dps. Dummies should only be used to get rotations down pat, not as an accurate measure to your raid dps. Every spec scales differently with raid buffs, sometimes up to 200% from your dummy dps. Let's quit with dummies and talk about patchwerk please.

 

RADRyanD

WoW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

That's a link to Naxxramas last night as 0/32/39. MH was Angry Dread at the time. Still managed to put out some great numbers on Patchwerk (Was my highest to be put out {5200} since I was tanking last week). This is in response to my original post for people that was curious for the parse.

 

Furiousk

Its not broken, it does its correct damage (20% of your damage as shadow) on anything but a targeting dummy.

As a few ppl have said dps on dummies are not an accurate representation of your damage. Case in point, targeting dummies only take 1pt of damage per necrosis hit (for me it hits for in the neighborhood of 180-200)

Walk outside, smack a mob, check your log.

Its working fine.

 

RADRyanD

Using the same standard 0/32/39 rotation with the /cancelaura Freezing Fog macros.

IT>PS>HB>BS>BS>DC(x2)
IT>PS>HB>IT>IT>DC(x2)

When popping Garg after the pop the same rotation but DC's get cut to 1 for the duration. This is a parse of Patch 3.0.8.

 

dukes

For those wondering about tracking the howling blast cooldown, check my attachment. I actually made it for HB pre-patch, because I wanted to know the actual cooldown, not the cooldown which potentially is modified by rune cooldowns. I've changed the timer to 5 seconds for post-patch. You'll need to tell WoW to load out of date addons as I haven't updated the toc file.

The addon originally comes from Geeks Hidden Cooldown on Curse which I've modified to pick up the Howling Blast spell firing (originally written for eclipse/ilotp). It's a simple box with a timer in it which shows you the exact cooldown left on HB. All credit goes to the original author.

Attached Files

GeeksHiddenCooldown.zip (3.3 KB, 427 views)

 

hellens

Recently hit 80 (I know, I know...I had a rough RL stretch in holidays! Leave me be!) and am researching all avenues to maximizing my DPS. I've been leveling in standard 2h Blood and Unholy builds anxiously awaiting 3.0.8 so all the testing can come in on how the nerfs affect the DW builds. I'll be trying them all, as I'm not the type to say "someone tell me what I should spec!"

Back on topic: In looking at the pre-patch standard 0/32/39 builds and some of the 0/33/38 builds, the main difference seems to be dropping CF for NotD and then spend the extra point in Deathchill. Most of you seem to have another Unholy DK to run with, making that choice a no brainer. However, even if you didn't have someone to cover CF for you, wouldn't NotD be worth it anyway? Granted, coming from my noobish experience I can't bring stats to the conversation, but from what I've been reading here, Ghoul survivability and more AoDs look like a better boost to dps than CF.

Feel free to slap me if it's a bad observation.

 

Boldin

Is there a rotation for this or mainly priority? There are so many damn pages in here I can't find anything.
I'd really like to have UA for the raid but this 0/20/51 spec seems pretty inferior to the one in the quote.

 

aldy

Just two things of note since the patch:
1) Ghoul has auto-gnaw on rather than auto-claw. Unbuffed on a test dummy that was a difference of 260 vs 360 dps, so check on that and change it.
2) Dodged/missed death runes now 1-sec refresh as death runes rather than changing back to blood runes (confirmed for SS, IT, HB).


Thanks for the CD addon dukes.

 

Grigori

You essentially need enough haste to fit 8 GCDs into 10 sec in order not to have idle time when running 4xHB rotations. This is not like going from 6 to 7 GCDs in 10 sec where you start with the leftover time from 6 GCDs in 10 sec and the WoA totem. Going from 7 to 8 GCDs is raw haste rating. That kind of haste is simply not feasible for DKs because you are giving up too much AP.

It is mathematically impossible even to run a tight 3xHB+3xIT rotation without enough haste to go essentially 7 GCDs in 10 sec. The 5-sec HB cooldown makes 3xHB rotations a bit more haste-friendly, but your HB options remain essentially the same as pre-patch: 3xHB+2xIT for a spare GCD, or 2xHB+4xIT. Now if the cooldown was changed to 4 sec, it would have made a difference.

The sad thing about the loss of 4xHB rotations is that, for the first time, we would have had a decent excuse both to dump Desecration (annoying talent, but hard to skip; would have traded it for for Outbreak and Unholy Aura, since we wouldn't need Epidemic with 2xIT and no PS) and to chuck the entire rotation from range (4xHB+2xIT+2xBB).

Improved Icy Talons only adds to melee haste, even though its tooltip says simply "haste."

 

stormcraft

For comparison:

Gear:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...on&n=Morbidius

Spec:

0/20/51

Blood pres.
Rotation: Priority System (PS if no BP> IT>BS for blood runes>dump)


Pre patch: 2,2k on dummy

post patch: 2,4k on dummy

Best in nax10 tonight: 3,9k on noth with garg and army

Overall: significant DPS increase for me

 

jxfaith

After a whole bunch of sandboxing and investigation, I did some work with some pascal triangles and spreadsheet maths, and worked out some numbers on PPM mechanics of dual wielding for you guys. Mainly S vs F mainhand.

So as we all know, PPM mechanics work on unhasted weapon speed in terms of deciding the procrate of abilities, and the original numbers are based in a fixed "expected" proc rate. Does this mean all weapons are created equally? Not necessarily.

In my numbers run, I used fixed proc's for slow weapon (2.7 speed = 22.5% proc chance per hit) as well as a fast one (1.6 speed = 13.333% proc chance per hit).

My tests were conducted as such. I took the row of a pascal triangle corresponding to each weapons attacks per minute, rounding slighly to account for variance of haste (assumed 132.2% haste, improved icy talons and 5% base haste on gear, though rounding likely cuts this 5% base haste out of the equation. Both weapons came out decimal (29.4 and 49.6 attacks for slow/fast respectively.) so I took rows 29 and 49 of the triangle.

Following that I used the equation (don't know how to use the forum code equations so stay with me here, lower case is essentially a subscript)

For:
At = number of attacks in sequence
Pc = proc chance
Pe = procs experienced in particular sequence
S = number of possible strings that can yield particular sequence

P = Pc^Pe*(1-Pc)^(At-Pe)*S

This gives me the probability of a string where Pe number of procs are experienced.

Running this through, I found the following interesting numbers.

A 2.6 speed weapon would experience 0 to 10 procs per 60 seconds 95.58% of the time, with 6 procs occuring most commonly at 17.53% probability.

A 1.6 speed weapon would experience 0 to 10 procs per 60 seconds 81.92% of the time, with 6 procs occuring most commonly at a 14.48% probability.

What does this say? It's basically best interpreted as such: Slow weapon in the main hand will create more reliable (read: less deviance from 6 ppm) source of killing machine, while a fast weapon in the main hand will result in a higher chance of deviation to >10 PPM (read: luck can create more dps for you).

I guess the question remaining is this:

Does BCB normalization with more RNG KM procs outweigh more reliable procs with harder hitting FS and other strikes?

EDIT: Ah hell, let's tackle it.

Normalization will provide 17.14% AP scaling to both strikes and BCB.
Angry Dead vs Hailstorm MH results in a 150.5 gain to angry dead before multipliers.

Blood presence 15%, Black Ice 30% (we're comparing frost strike here), and a +13% magic debuff
Roughly 254.2 harder frost strikes
Hasted to 132.3% (imp IT and 5% base haste)
Angry dead hits 1.89 Aspd, yielding 9.524 Blood caked strikes per min at 2143.97145 bonus from wep dmg
Hailstorm hits 1.13 aspd, yielding 15.929 blood caked strikes per min, totalling 157% extra AP as damage in one minute, as well as 2152.406125 bonus from weapon damage.

At those rates, it's clear that hailstorm will beat angry dead in terms of BCB damage.

FS maths for comparing AP scaling

HB rotation (PS IT HB BS BS, PS IT HB IT IT) with IT glyph yields 25 RP, HB yields 15, BS 10. Not counting rime procs, that's 170 RP, when glyphed that is 5.3125 FS per rotation, round down to 5 GCD, that rotation will take 22.5 seconds to complete, yielding 13.333 FS per 60 seconds.

Angry Dead would gain 3389.2486 damage per minute on FS, but loses out on 8.5 damage from BCB, coming to a total of 3380.7486 damage gained.
Hailstorm would still hold 157% of its AP over angry dead per minute. To make the damage greater with hailstorm, you would need to get at least 2159 attack power. This means that with a howling blast rotation, fast MH 'always' outscales a slow one.

IT rotation (IT IT BS BS, IT IT IT IT-- PS every time the debuff falls) with IT glyph yields 170, a rime will occur on average every 1.5 (actually 1.6, rounded for simplicity) rotations, meaning you do 3 rime rots with 1 non. This averages out to a per-rotation gen of around 173.75, or 5.43 glyphed FS. The rotation takes 1.666 gcds for PS, .75 for rime, total of 10.5 GCD, we can use 4.5 FS per 22.5 seconds, yielding 12 FS per 60 seconds.

Angry Dead would gain 3050.4 damage per minute on FS, but loses out on 8.5 damage from BcB, totaling 3041.9 damage gained.
Hailstorm still holds 157% of its AP over angry dead per minute. To make the damage greater with Hailstorm, you would need to get at least 1943 attack power. This means that with an IT rotation, fast MH 'always' outscales a slow one.

 

Furiousk

Awesome, thanks Grigori this lines up with my conclusions and napkin scriblings for refresh and GCD over a full 20s rotation.

The 6 to 5s refresh is a non issue, it doesn't open up any new rotations for us. There is some more flexibilty at the end of a rotation, or perhaps during some extra hasted period from proc or bloodlust, but otherwise its business as usual.

Until such a time as Unholy Presence is competitive dps wise with Blood Presence, we are going to see no extra utility from a 5s HB that we dont already get from a 6s cooldown.

Agreed with the rotations, I dont take Desecration at all (long story, but short form is it spams up the raid with extra circles that confuse some of our melee dps during fights like globulus) so this change would have been fantastic for me. Im dubious of talents that require you to be in a single position at any rate.

Also frustrating that the icy touch talent doesnt improve spell haste, since the DW frost build relies so heavily on IT and HB.

Thank you for the answers.

 

Grigori

Well, strictly speaking, it does. This is because with 4xHB+2xIT, idle time does not necessarily decrease your DPS since there is time leftover after spending all resources available.

You can still run something like this in a 0/32/39 non-Desecration all-ranged spellchucker build:



The problem is that this sequence has no lag leeway (you are essentially chaining 4 CDs back-to-back without any room for delay). Even though theoretically this is a 20-sec rotation, in practice it always results in the rotation going over 20 sec when you track it with an addon over multiple cycles. Still, this has obvious advantages that may very well be worth the DPS loss.

 

Faithplusone

I've been reading about canceling Freezing Fog, but I haven't understood why yet. Could anyone explain, please?

By the way, is 0/32/39 still the best specc for DW? I've been reading alot about 0/44/27, 10/10/51 and 10/31/30, but 32/39 seems to be the best specc by looking at the posted WWS and WMO-logs.

 

Furiousk

Makes sense, I could see where you are forced into a position where melee combat is not feasable (air phases etc) this would be a very good thing to have available.

 

reflexdk

Freezing Fog allows a Howling blast without using runes. This simply means that once you've cast the Howling Blast, you're stuck with essentially another Frost and Unholy rune to use up, and by doing so you tend to disrupt your rotation from being "pure".

Therefore people cancel freezing fog before casting HB, to ensure they use the Frost and Unholy rune and keep within their rotation.

To do this, is a simple macro:

#showtooltip Howling Blast
/cancelaura Freezing Fog
/cast Howling Blast

With regards to spec, it's a bit too early to tell, but the suggestion is that 44/27 has a very slight advantage over 32/39 - but I suspect this is quite gear dependent

 

Sabbs

So to make a long story short - my dps isn't as high as all these 5k guys using the 0/32/39 dps. I have the gear, which means my cylce is jacked up. So I've been talking to a lot of DK's (and reading information here) and one thing I've noticed is that everyone says this:

A couple of the DK's that I've been talking too, have told me this:

IT>PS>BS>BS>HB> RP
IT>PS>IT>IT>HB> RP

To be blunt, I'm borderline frustrated and confused. I've been doing 2.5-3.5k dps in nax (last night, we were switching out weapons / switching between blood and unholy but overall my dps was 2.5k (just a few examples: Noth was 2.6k, Heigan 2.2k, patchwerk was 3.4k). I was doing the cycle I posted during this (I'm hoping I can go back and do the 'normal' cycle next week and try that out).

My question is; why is HB better to go before BS? (like the 'standard' cycle listed here?) and should I still be dpsing in blood or unholy with 3.08? They both seem about equal (I wish I had kept track of which fight was which - my bad )

I'm trying to become a better raider; and thus far I'm striking out :/