Dual Wield Builds - Page 68

armiq · 01/22/09, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by Falya

That sounds very promising. Especially if you add in the nature of the killing machine nerf in combination with the higher slow/fast dps. If you throw the bigger benefit for slow weapons from frost strike/blood strike in and mix it with the fact that there is no good third glyph for the 32/39 spec but a mediocre glyph for frost strike it sounds even better. I also like the stronger death rune generation in trash groups and on bosses with adds like Noth, Maexxna or Faerlina where AE damage helps to get the adds down(in cause of Pestilence and Blood of the North).

The only thing i don't like is annihilation. It only helps to improve about 15%(PS, BS, FS) of your damage potential with 3% extra-crit. On the other site...if you use rime and throw in some extra obliberates to get the rotation done annihilation could be quite nice, too.

I think it would be a rotation like this one:
it ps hb fs bs bs RP-dump
it ps hb fs it it RP-dump

If rime is active just add an Obliberate after the HB. It shakes the rotation a little bit, but doesn't completly destroy it. Btw: I think its a good idea to put FS after HB to eat all that runepower up. FS works better with slow/fast, too. With IT-Glyph you'll get 25 RP by Icy Touch, 20 from Howling Blast and 30 from Obliberate(with T7 Set Bonus). That's a lot of runepower. I'm quite sure that you can easily pay the the gargoyle-upkeep while you still use FS and probably even some DCs.

The problems are:
-the rotation is quite long
-watching for rime-procs sucks
-32/39 has more raid utility if you spec unholy aura and crypt fever
-the disease-durations are not long enough to be sure that they are 100% of the time applied. One point in epidemic is needed.

I think i'll give this version of (0/45/26) a try because im quite sure that 32/39 does not completly use the full potential of a slow mh-weapon.

What do you think? Are there any errors in my assumptions?

Yes deeper unholy is better support for raid. But I have many active DKs in guild and they all are unholy... So 44/27 is best for me atm.
I did find a new solution

44/27 drop FS for UA and use DC as RP dump

advantages:
-no stealing KM procs as it is with FS
-DC is doing larger dmg
-UA will rise dmg of DC and ALL other skills
and small plus is range of DC...
if someone know a reason why use FS is better, post it please

And if someone know that if +10% str for 20s from UA with naxx25 gear is worth of 1GCD/frost rune or that 1 point can be placed at better place?

few screens with testing of FC/DC dmg both w/o UA
2x FS

2x DC

slow/fast both with 156 dps
Yes FS got more crit procs but its because of KM. This will be more effective with IT and HB what is possible with DC rp dump.
Maybe here was little advantage of 32/39.

Bahamas · 01/22/09, 7:54 PM

Edit: Skip this post as its not part of the DW theorycrafting discussion. If some mod could move it to UI forum, that would be great.

Hey.

I saw a couple of pages back that people were tired of watching for different stuff to proc, and it was suggested to use Powerauras Classic for example. I did that myself, but I always found the graphics to be abit annoying, so I decided to use sounds to notify myself when the different things procced. I found this great addon, written by Anubis2k8 on curse.com, called Sound Event Handler 4. Using this addon I recorded myself and made a few sound clips to be triggered ingame when shit happens. Works pretty well for me anyway.

The addon is very easy to use. So far I use it for 5 occations.
km.mp3 - Killing Machine proc.
ga.mp3 - When Reflections of Torment procs (pop Gargoyle).
hwl.mp3 - Horn (of Winter) lost. When Horn fades and needs to be refreshed.
bsl.mp3 - Boneshield lost. When Boneshield expires and needs to be refreshed.

I also got ff.mp3 in there for Freezing Fog procs, since they promised us HB off any cooldown, but you're probably just better off doing cancleaura on that one. The wav sound quality isnt much to brag about, but dodgy headset mic is to blame for that. Also beware that the clips are fairly loud. This is because I play wow with the ingame sound turned way down to hear stuff on Ventrilo better.

http://myth.as/files/seh4.rar
There are only sound and textfiles in there, but do a virusscan if you feel you have to =)

Once again I would like to thank the author and project manager of the addon, Anubis2k8. Great work.

Goetterdaemmerung · 01/22/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bahamas

I saw a couple of pages back that people were tired of watching for different stuff to proc, and it was suggested to use Powerauras Classic for example. I did that myself, but I always found the graphics to be abit annoying, so I decided to use sounds to notify myself when the different things procced. I found this great addon, written by Anubis2k8 on curse.com, called Sound Event Handler 4. Using this addon I recorded myself and made a few sound clips to be triggered ingame when shit happens. Works pretty well for me anyway.

MSBT and Power Auras Classic can both give you sound without any graphics, if you prefer that. In any event, let's talk about this in the UI thread instead.

Unstopbubble · 01/22/09, 9:01 PM

I just tested all possible weapon combinations besides slow/slow. All tests were done for 3 minutes in Blood Presence keeping icy talons up and 175 base haste rating. KM was used immediately after it proc'd.

Slow Main Hand / No Offhand - 6.00 PPM (18 total)
Slow Main Hand / Fast Offhand -5.73 PPM (17 total)

Fast Main Hand / No Offhand -7.98 PPM (23 total)
Fast Main Hand / Slow Offhand -3.61 PPM (10 total)

Fast Main Hand / Fast Offhand -4.26 PPM (13 total)

No Main Hand / Slow Offhand -2.00 PPM (6 total)
No Main Hand / Fast Offhand -3.73 PPM (11 total)

2H Weapon - -5.00 PPM (15 total) < The only one that seems correct

With that said I believe for Dual Wield the whole PPM concept is totally messed up. I believe it to be bugged because within the same combination test I noticed sometimes it would take 30 seconds for a single KM to proc and sometimes it would proc 3 times within 6 seconds.

I know 3 minutes isn't considered enough time to be conclusive but the whole idea of implementing PPM onto KM was that it is restricted to a maximum number. For instance if it's 10 PPM you should always get 10 PPM no matter what speed weapon.

-Please give your insight.

shopshopshop · 01/22/09, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by armiq

using DC over FS:
-no stealing KM procs and cinderglacier as with FS

.

Death Coil does shadow damage and will therefore use up Cinderglacier procs, which boost shadow as well as frost damage sources.

• Embar · 01/22/09, 9:12 PM

3 minutes is definitely not enough. Even PPM converts over to a % chance, which can be affected by RNG as well - you could get an extremely lucky streak with 10 procs in a single minute, or you could end up with significantly less. Without testing over long periods of time it's hard to confirm whether your results are outliers or not.

Unstopbubble · 01/22/09, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by Embar

3 minutes is definitely not enough. Even PPM converts over to a % chance, which can be affected by RNG as well - you could get an extremely lucky streak with 10 procs in a single minute, or you could end up with significantly less. Without testing over long periods of time it's hard to confirm whether your results are outliers or not.

I disagree. Killing Machine procs even when you miss. Therefore, Killing Machine should always be static and produce the same results. The implementation of PPM should mean that it will proc up to this many times per minute.

• Embar · 01/22/09, 9:27 PM

Originally Posted by Unstopbubble

I disagree. Killing Machine procs even when you miss. Therefore, Killing Machine should always be static and produce the same results. The implementation of PPM should mean that it will proc up to this many times per minute.

Please read up before you post inaccurate things like this - there is a TTT article about proc mechanics. The anomalies in your initial report can be explained by invoking RNG.

Also quoting from WoWWiki: "An understandable misconception is that procs per minute guarantees that exactly some amount of procs will occur each minute of combat. This is not the case, as procs per minute is merely a statistical average, not a guarantee."

Unstopbubble · 01/22/09, 9:39 PM

my mistake. But I still think something is messed up RNG or not.

Faithplusone · 01/22/09, 11:32 PM

Been thinking about enchanting Berserker on my Off-hand, but I'm not sure yet. Is it better than Razorice or Cinderglacier? I haven't seen any DK use Berserker yet so I'm thinking either everybody has forgotten that there are other enchants available or it's just simply not worth it.

Jeager · 01/22/09, 11:48 PM

44/27.. I've seen 2 variations of the spec, DW and 2h. Would DW still hold the advantage over 2h for this, or would frost strike as a RP dump scale enough for 2h to do more damage?

Psychout · 01/23/09, 12:24 AM

I have been trying to follow up on the forums here, unfortunately there are just too many theorycrafting discussions going on at the moment...So firstly I'd like to request that someone post a new thread that perhaps has the most relevant and pertinent dps specs for patch 3.0.8 if possible. Secondly I have been doing some messing around in game and was wondering what people were thinking on this spec... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ...I have had some trouble deciding what to do with the 2 points needed to be able to access BotN, so I just put them into Deathchill and Annihilation assuming that the 2% increased crit is better than any other options. Also I put into master of ghouls and gargoyle instead of epidemic due to the fact that my experience shows a valid rotation for most fights does not require epidemic and the dps from a gargoyle and ghoul out dps the added bonus of perhaps another HB, BS, or whatever in a rotation. Any thoughts appreciated.

furiousmike · 01/23/09, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by Psychout

Secondly I have been doing some messing around in game and was wondering what people were thinking on this spec... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft ...I have had some trouble deciding what to do with the 2 points needed to be able to access BotN, so I just put them into Deathchill and Annihilation assuming that the 2% increased crit is better than any other options.

This spec is pretty close to what I am using and can't say it's bad at all. As for your 2 points needed to be able to access blood of the north, I went for 3/3 in RPM instead because with close to a full RP bar with the new Frost Strike glyph you can throw in 4 FS instead of 3.

dunsparrow · 01/23/09, 1:51 AM

Hey guys, I've tried the 32/39 spec a few times since the patch and for some reason my DPS in raids is simply AWFUL compared to 17/0/54 2h and I know I must be doing something wrong, but I cant put my finger on what it is.

As 17/0/54 2h unholy, I do right around 5k dps on patch. As 0/32/39 I do about 3.5-3.8k dps. As 2h I use Armageddon, and as DW I use Silent Crusader MH and Hailstorm OH. I've tried Razorice MH and FC offhand as well as FC MH and Cinderglacier OH and my DPS is similar both ways.

My gear set was designed with 2h Unholy in mind, but my DW set has 9% chance to hit melee, 19 expertise, 3255 AP, 29% crit, 2.2% haste, 5% ArP.

My rotation is

PS, IT, HB, BS, BS, RP dump
PS, HB, IT IT, IT, RP dump

I use a /cancelaura Freezing Fog macro on my HB and I DPS in Unholy Presence. Any glaring issues? Do I need to max hit and expertise in leiu of strength? Is my rotation solid? I just dont see what I'm doing wrong. Unfortunately, the guild I was in until recently did not do WWS so I have no parses to offer. Any insights or thoughts would be helpful.

Psychout · 01/23/09, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by furiousmike

This spec is pretty close to what I am using and can't say it's bad at all. As for your 2 points needed to be able to access blood of the north, I went for 3/3 in RPM instead because with close to a full RP bar with the new Frost Strike glyph you can throw in 4 FS instead of 3.

Thanks, I was thinking about that, thanks for the advice...Im looking forward to trying that out.

atomicgate · 01/23/09, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by dunsparrow

I use a /cancelaura Freezing Fog macro on my HB and I DPS in Unholy Presence. Any glaring issues? Do I need to max hit and expertise in leiu of strength? Is my rotation solid? I just dont see what I'm doing wrong. Unfortunately, the guild I was in until recently did not do WWS so I have no parses to offer. Any insights or thoughts would be helpful.

Use Blood Presence instead of Unholy.

dunsparrow · 01/23/09, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by atomicgate

Use Blood Presence instead of Unholy.

How could I possible spend all my RP if I'm in Blood Presence? Am I suppose to just sit RP capped the entire fight or not use my runes once they've cooldown down until I've DC'd it all away?

Convulsion · 01/23/09, 2:55 AM

Just finished 25 man Naxx for the night using 0/32/39 (same spec I was running pre-patch, but with points shifted from crypt fever to NotD and corpse explosion). It seems like in general I lost several hundred dps on single targets. Went from first in dps on seven bosses the week before the patch (Gothik, Faerlina, Maexxna, Patchwerk, Noth, Gluth, Kel'thuzad) to first on only Noth this week (the hunter who was beating me every boss DCed). Despite this loss across the board on bosses, my dps overall for the run went up from about 3.9k to 4.2k. Anyone else noticing a potential DPS increase via the changes to corpse explosion and howling blast?

It just strikes me as rather odd that Blizzard would feel the need to nerf us, and yet gives us that damage back in another way.

armiq · 01/23/09, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by furiousmike

This spec is pretty close to what I am using and can't say it's bad at all. As for your 2 points needed to be able to access blood of the north, I went for 3/3 in RPM instead because with close to a full RP bar with the new Frost Strike glyph you can throw in 4 FS instead of 3.

But why u ppls want to do so many FS? Imo its just wasting of GCD...

And why u all want to use FS? As i writed at top of page DC is doing higher hits he got nice boost from impurity and FS isn't ideal skill for build where ppls need save KM proc for IT and HB chiefly now post-patch because of lower HB CD and IT sigil.... DC ftw.

Konata · 01/23/09, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by armiq

But why u ppls want to do so many FS? Imo its just wasting of GCD...

And why u all want to use FS? As i writed at top of page DC is doing higher hits he got nice boost from impurity and FS isn't ideal skill for build where ppls need save KM proc for IT and HB chiefly now post-patch because of lower HB CD and IT sigil.... DC ftw.

FS does 100-200 more damage than DC for me, plus it is more damage per RP. Also is easier to hit cap FS than DC.

I am using FC & razor ice with fast/fast though.

armiq · 01/23/09, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by Konata

FS does 100-200 more damage than DC for me, plus it is more damage per RP. Also is easier to hit cap FS than DC.

I am using FC & razor ice with fast/fast though.

It is possible. As I see u got only 2100 AP. When u reach about 3000 then impurity will be higher boost for DC. Hit cap isn't problem. If u are missing DC then u are missing HB/IT too and its big dps loss for u.

Some other ppls with same experiences as konata?

lovelord · 01/23/09, 5:31 AM

Hi all,

long time reader over here, seated while lurking information and now that i got a respectable gear set (click here) i can do some affermation and probably ask something to all you.

Now testing [Silent Crusader](RFC) as MH + [Split Greathammer](Razorice) as OF

-unbuffed-
my hit rating is: 396 + 3/3 Virulence
my crit is: 25.25%
my ap is: 3031

0/32/39 2 points in NotD + 1 Plague | Blood presence + AP Flask + Pork got on Patch like 4-4.3 dps down from ~4.8 dps pre-3.0.8 nerf.

Got a lot of noise for HB icon bug becouse cannot understand on the fly if it is in cd or less.

Now i've got on AH for 10k gold (i'm still crying...) my brand new [Nobles Deck] son on February 2th i'll get a [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

At the moment got [Grim Toll] + [Mirror of Truth] and i'm asking what is best combination between :

[Grim Toll] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

or

[Mirror of Truth] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]

Asked for this, i've got some other weapons to choise with, like

[Widow's Fury] [Titansteel Bonecrusher] but i think best combination at the moment is what i get on hands, waiting probably for Noth's [Angry Dread] (if this is always the best slow MH for us).

What to you think ?

PS: Corpse explosion , after these 2 days testing, is resulted as a valid spell to get or less?

Many thanks all,

great work!

Crucius

Konata · 01/23/09, 5:44 AM

Looking at your screenshots your FS is actually doing alot more overall damage compared to DC. Its doing ~2k average hit overall compare to ~1.7k of your DCs.

Other advantages of FS is it has a much higher crit rate(even without KM, for you have about ~29% crit with melee compared to 19~% for spells like DC) than DC, and does more crit damage since it has more talents effecting it. Like Glacier Rot(+10%), Black Ice (+30%), Merciless combat(+12%), Guile of Gorefiend for the full + 45% damage.

Also if you have another DK with razor ice in the group FS can be effected by both razor ice and your own Cinderglacier.

I think FS actually scales better with AP than DC too, someone else posted here a comparsion of the two. Since DC only has +30% from morbidity and impurity +25% of 10%.

But mostly it GoG and higher crit rate which should put FS over DC. Plus you can cast more FS than DCs (5 FS to 4 DCs, which should have 5 FS > 4 DC)

armiq · 01/23/09, 5:50 AM

Originally Posted by lovelord

What to you think ?

I got same weapons but with CG and trinkets too. U have enough hit so u can change grim toll for deck. Grim toll isn't right trinket for DK... that chance on hit is crap. Yesterday a tank druid does ninja loot my good dps trinket in naxx10

So I have to w8 a bit more for better trinket as grim toll.

lovelord · 01/23/09, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by armiq

I got same weapons but with CG and trinkets too. U have enough hit so u can change grim toll for deck. Grim toll isn't right trinket for DK... that chance on hit is crap. Yesterday a tank druid does ninja loot my good dps trinket in naxx10

So I have to w8 a bit more for better trinket as grim toll.

So u think as me that best combo is Mirror of Truth (~10% proc rate) + Greatness card (~33% proc rate),

in this case i'm going down from 396hit to 313hit + 3/3 Viru and NocS

U think that i can get out some points from viru to epidemic or Corpse Explosion or let all as is?