I'm still wondering why some people keep claiming that slow offhand weapons are good.
The only variable that has effect on the offhand is, unless I miss one, Blood-caked Blades. Which does more damage with a fast weapon. (Unless they removed the normalization).
You're calculating haste incorrectly. It should be (Base Weapon Speed) / (1 + Haste %); ie, a 2.5 with 20% haste is reduced to 2.5/1.2, or ~2.083 weapon speed. I'm unclear why you would assume that slow weapons would have the advantage if there is nothing else at play - haste increases the speed of fast and slow weapons by the same %, there is no increased effect of haste on slow weapons. In your example...
2.5 weapon speed becomes ~2.083 weapon speed with 20% haste, yielding ~28.8 hits per minute, with the original 20.83% chance to proc, resulting in roughly ~5.99PPM.
1.6 weapon speed becomes ~1.333 weapon speed with 20% haste, yielding ~45 hits per minute, with the original 13.33% chance to proc, resulting in roughly ~5.99PPM.
I believe it's been demonstrated earlier in the thread that KM only procs off of auto-attacks - there is nothing to indicate that yellow/special attacks can proc it. As far as KM is concerned, assuming that the 5PPM mechanic is working properly, than base weapon speed no longer has any real effect on increasing/decreasing KM procs.
Demonstrated pre 3.0.8 or post? The wording was changed and it no longer specifies auto attacks in the tooltip, although that may still be the case. If you're right that specials don't proc it then speed is irrelevant. If they do proc it, then slower is better.
KM only procs from auto attacks and that is what I'm doing with my tests. I am auto attacking in blood presence for the same amount of time and preforming numerous tests because I know PPM is a statistical average so sometimes you will get more and some times you will get less.
Oh and even Ghostcrawler himself said KM does NOT proc from your off hand.
KM only procs from auto attacks and that is what I'm doing with my tests. I am auto attacking in blood presence for the same amount of time and preforming numerous tests because I know PPM is a statistical average so sometimes you will get more and some times you will get less.
Oh and even Ghostcrawler himself said KM does NOT proc from your off hand.
Thats good to know. It also changes nothing I said about haste, even though my math wasn't exactly on. Haste raises your PPM.
Thats good to know. It also changes nothing I said about haste, even though my math wasn't exactly on. Haste raises your PPM.
Yes I believe that as well. People have shown that in unholy presence as well they get more PPM. I think it has closed the gap between DPS'ing in Blood or Unholy Presences. I still like blood because the 4% healing received back and my rotations get jammed while in Unholy Presence.
So I was dps'ing on the dummies before and I learned two things. First and foremost my damage in unholy presence is just better. Theres no ifs and or buts about it - its better. Maybe KM proccing more with haste is why i'm not sure.
Second, I seemed to do more damage with Angry Dread MH and Last Laugh OH
It would seem that i SHOULD be doing more with it the other way around as necrosis and BCB are both even if not even favoring last laugh in the MH. The blood strike / plague strike damage should be negligible.
However it's just clearly not the case and i can't figure out why.
Originally I had though that i'd get a second last laugh and be a beast. However, after my testing today i'm thinking maybe not.. and also I don't see anyone else using last laugh - isn't it the best weapon in the game for us?
So I was dps'ing on the dummies before and I learned two things. First and foremost my damage in unholy presence is just better. Theres no ifs and or buts about it - its better. Maybe KM proccing more with haste is why i'm not sure.
Second, I seemed to do more damage with Angry Dread MH and Last Laugh OH
It would seem that i SHOULD be doing more with it the other way around as necrosis and BCB are both even if not even favoring last laugh in the MH. The blood strike / plague strike damage should be negligible.
However it's just clearly not the case and i can't figure out why.
Originally I had though that i'd get a second last laugh and be a beast. However, after my testing today i'm thinking maybe not.. and also I don't see anyone else using last laugh - isn't it the best weapon in the game for us?
I use Last Laugh in my off hand. Not quite sure how big the difference is using Last Laugh in the main hand and Angry Dead in the off hand but It probably isn't too much.
I haven't tested the Unholy vs Blood Presence since the patch but Unholy presence have definitely closed the gap from what I've read. Further tests between these will be interesting. I am currently working on KM PPM tests.
Guys, I have a weird question. I recently specced from tanking, so my DPS gear is a bit poor.
The only epic 1H weapon I have is [Hatestrike], which is enchanted with Razorice in my OH.
I currently use [Reaper of Dark Souls] in my MH with Fallen Crusader. Poor I know I do however have a [Broken Promise]. Would that actually perform better? It's got slightly less AP on it, less hit (although I need to upgrade my Hit Rating gems to blue quality anyways so that would cover it), and no Critical Rating. It does have more DPS though.
If it helps, I run with 0/33/38 (like 0/32/39 without Crypt Fever and Unholy Aura), so I don't use Frost Strike for RP dump.
It mainly comes down to the DPS of the weapons. Before patch, I actually was using [Broken Promise] MH and [Widow's Fury] OH. It worked out just fine. MH The BP, OH the Hatestrike.
I have been following this thread & hope to get some advice on a dual wielding build. I have been doing dps as a blood & an unholy build previous to this...but want to take a shot at DW dps for a change. My current character information can be found here:
First & foremost...is there is basic spec that we should be following? I have seen a lot of links for 32/39 & 33/38 builds...but a lot of them vary in a lot of ways. Are there specific glyphs that are a must for this build? Is there a specific hit cap that I need to get to above the 296 for 2H builds?
What is the basic philosophy when it comes to weapon selection? Am I looking for dps, weapon speed, stats, etc.? As I have been primarily been using 2H specs...I have no epic quality one handed weapons saved up. I do have 2 [Crypt Lord's Deft Blade] that I did manage to collect while running heroics. Are there any other weapons in heroics that I should try to get while I wait for some drops in our guild raids? Is the [Grasscutter] available through Emblems of Heroism a decent alternative until I can get better?
And most importantly...what if anything has changed in patch 3.0.8 that would alter the philosophy of anything that I may find in the early pages of this thread? I plan to read through the entire thread some time tomorrow to try to answer most of the questions above for myself (if I can)...otherwise I would appreciate any insight or advice that anyone may have. Thank you for your time.
its late, and i dont feel like making a link of the build for you atm (my apologies, ill get to it in the morning) but if you can find the normal 0/32/39 build
rotation:
PS-IT-BS-BS-HB-DC
PS-IT-IT-IT-HB-DC
glyphs:
not many really, raise dead, ghoul, are useful if any, i have to look at IT glyph, hopefully someone else can answer that part better, i have to go back and look at my major glyphs
hit:
aim for 350ish, however i've noticed many of the high hitters in the 250 area, expertise, of course, is unecessary
weapons: Well as a beginner, im still gearing my DK, i am using Reaper of Dark Souls MH and Fang of Truth OH (slow/fast) generall with the new KM slow/fast is better thought of now (might be wrong lots of math going on)
the patch hasnt changed too much honestly, the garg nerf is balanced by the necrosis buff it seems, and slow/fast is now a viable option for the spec.
this maybe vague, and i apologize i really cant remember all the details atm.
-Windrune (if you want an idea of how you may want to go gear wise (seriously i recently switched mains and the dk is still under construction) look me up on the armory, windrune-whisperwind
hit:
aim for 350ish, however i've noticed many of the high hitters in the 250 area, expertise, of course, is unecessary
Actually after 11% spell hit (288.53 hit rating), hit rating drops dramatically in usefulness, becoming the least wanted stat, apart from maybe Agility. This is if you have Virulence 3/3.
With the content difficulty level being what it is currently, I found myself with enough free time to roll a DK alt to raid 10 man content with some old friends in addition to raiding 25s on my warlock main. I've enjoyed the DK thus far, largely in part because of the fine work many of you guys do here on these forums. Last week, after a merge with another guild, my friends decided to also start hitting 25s. Here is some data from last nights Naxx clear:
The Build: 33/38 - I picked up Deathchill and macro it to HB. I also pick up Unholy Aura, NoTD, Bone Armor and CE since I had a point to burn on my way to bigger and better (more on that in a second).
The Gear: Mournhold - Picked up [Angry Dread] as a new MH last night, but I ran with [Maexxna's Femur] MH with FC and [Hatestrike] OH with Razorice the whole evening. (Fast/Fast this week with the plan to move to Slow/Fast next week.) I also use the new IT sigil. I glyph with the Bone Shield, IT and Ghoul majors and the Horn, Pestilence and Raise Dead minors. I gear for 8% melee hit, and 11% spell hit with 3/3 Virulence.
The Plan: I was 32/39 pre-patch and used the fairly standard rotation of PS-IT-BS-BS-HB-DC, then PS-IT-IT-IT-HB-DC. I started out post-patch doing the same thing, but what I noticed was that on single targets my IT seemed to be hitting in the same range as my HBs did. What I decided to do was modify the set rotation for single targets and replace HB with IT, and then hit HB any time I had a Rime proc. This ended up turning into more of a priority setup rather than a full rotation, but it definately felt more fluid given that HB still has a cooldown. DC was still my main RP dump, unless I found myself knee deep in multiple mobs up and HB was on cooldown, then I'd hit Corpse Explosion instead (macro'd to not blow up my own Ghoul if I hit a modifier key).
The Result: Here is the WWS Report from last night's full Naxx 25 clear. In the end it looks like I was incorrect about replacing HB with IT as much as I did, given that the average damage does seem higher for HB over the course of the evening. I'm glad I stuck with the plan though since it did give me a whole raid worth of data to review.
I did ok for the night, better in fact than the numbers I put up the week before (Naxx was split into two different reports over two nights last week or I'd post them as well). A lot of that though I attribute to the apparent strength of the [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] over the badge sigil for this particular build.
I won't draw any more conclusions than I already have because I'm certainly no expert on the class. I just wanted to offer up my data to others out there in this thread who are far more experienced with DKs than I am in the hopes that maybe they can use it to help determine where we should go from here.
Has anyone else found themselves with too much RP while dps'ing in blood presence? I'm sure my dps isn't as high as it could be because I keep jamming myself up with too much RP and throw myself off trying to dump it all :\
Has anyone else found themselves with too much RP while dps'ing in blood presence? I'm sure my dps isn't as high as it could be because I keep jamming myself up with too much RP and throw myself off trying to dump it all :\
"Too much RP" isn't really a problem because there aren't any "good" uses for that RP. By good, I specifically mean anything that can compete with HB or IT for damage. If your RP rots, it means you're giving up a deathcoil or two - practically the weakest part of one's rotation.
This is the same reason why blood presence is better than unholy for DPSing -- sure you can fill the extra GCDs, but you are filling them with weaker abilities than HB or IT and are weakening those two skills in the process.
"Too much RP" isn't really a problem because there aren't any "good" uses for that RP. By good, I specifically mean anything that can compete with HB or IT for damage. If your RP rots, it means you're giving up a deathcoil or two - practically the weakest part of one's rotation.
This is the same reason why blood presence is better than unholy for DPSing -- sure you can fill the extra GCDs, but you are filling them with weaker abilities than HB or IT and are weakening those two skills in the process.
Ah I understand what you're saying, it just feels counterintuitive to let my RP rot. I'll definitely try to not worry about it so much.
After playing around with a few specs, I'm convinced that 32/39 (or its slight variants) are still very good builds - but I find myself asking whether it is necessarily a Dual Wield build any more.
I ran a number of 3-minute practice dummy tests. Half were Dual Wielding Widow's Fury and Split Greathammer. The other half were 2H with an Ancient Claymore of Power. Each followed basically the same priority system. The 2H outperformed the DW weapons every time.
The main point of DW was to maximize Killing Machine procs. Now that it is MH-only and PPM-based, I'm not getting a big difference on that front. Using a big slow 2H gives you the same number of KM procs, but also buffs your BS and PS damage. Whatever necrosis/blood-caked blade advantages there still are to DW (and many posters in this thread have suggested they are negligible), they seem to be more than offset by having stronger PS/BS hits.
This is probably more true of this spec, since the bulk of damage from 32/39 is off Howling Blast and Icy Touch, supported by various non-weapon talents (Impurity, etc.). I just don't see what DW does for that focus any more, and you can additionally shuffle around the three Nerves of Cold Steel talent points to some mix of Deathchill, Runic Power Mastery or Icy Reach, whatever benefits your playstyle.
I started down this line of thinking when everyone realized fast/fast was going to be outperformed by slow/fast - the whole point of fast/fast was to maximize KM procs. Isn't the next step in that thought process to rationally consider whether 2H will out-perform slow/fast for exactly the same reasons? Especially in a world where Blizzard hasn't really given us a i226 "slow mainhand" option, but they have given us a i226 2h option. I'd have to think that using a BoH with a 32/39 build is going to outperform almost any other weapon combo.
@ Waste: You have a very interesting point. 32/39's spell damage component, which is very large, is virtually unaffected by weapon choice now that KM is on a PPM system. You also have a great point that ilvl226 1-handed weapons are scarce, and this has very real implications for current scaling.
You ask why dual-wield with 32/39, and I agree that it needs more testing. Even without NoCS, DW autoattack damage scales much better than 2H. After the added miss percentage is factored in, you gain about an extra 25-30% contribution from your attack power to autoattack related damage over 2H. There is no question that BCB and Necrosis benefit more from DW, and I suspect your tests ignored the contribution from Necrosis completely. I suspect DW is more competitive than you give it credit for because of this. Another thing to consider is the presence of a second rune enchant -- given mages in your raid, the ability to stack Razorice should not be overlooked.
That said, your post made me think of something else to consider: if the procs per minute are calculated assuming 100% chance to hit, 2H will have more KM procs than DW by about 15% (due to the DW miss penalty). This could be another reason why you're seeing more DPS with 2H, and ought to be tested.
Sorry I'm kind of new here, and this maybe a stupid question ( if it was answered before, because the thread is kind of long), but why wouldn't a 44/27 build such as Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
put out similar dps to the 32/39. With duel-wielding.
I put in frost strike for lack of other talents, I know you probably wouldn't be using it if you're duelwielding.
Also could a weapon switch be viable? I know this is far out, and it would be wierd to gear for this (because of hit, and etc) but maybe there could be some insane rotation which switches to Two-handed for strings of blood strikes and frost strikes =/.
What do people suggest instead of desecration for the 32/39 build? I'm already moving 2 out of CF into NotD but I'm not sure what is better than 3/5 desecration.
Hi guys, last time i looked into this thread was at page 40 or something so don't be angry if it has been mentioned.
For AoE i usually go with
Dnd>IT>Pest>Rune Tap>HB
DnD deals pretty good dmg and is even over HB if u didn't have KM up.
If Rune Tap is on CD you obviously use the normal AoE rotation.
What do people suggest instead of desecration for the 32/39 build? I'm already moving 2 out of CF into NotD but I'm not sure what is better than 3/5 desecration.
If you wanted out of Desecration, Epidemic might not be a bad choice, or Corpse Explosion, even. CE is pretty exclusive to trash, but as someone had pointed out earlier (I believe in the CE thread), trash clearing is still important. The faster you get through it, the faster you get to the bosses (not to many other choices anyways, right?), which to me seems like a valid argument. If I'm reading right it sounds like you are going to go 1/3 Crypt Fever, if not, the other point could go into Deathchill.
The lack of other choices are why most (including myself) just went with Desecration.
I've asked before but did not receive a reply. I was wondering if there is new stat weights for the 3.0.8 patch? I believe Haste, Hit and Expertise values should be different with the new changes brought into KM, and Necrosis. The stat values should be higher due to these changes. Thank you in advance for your time and help! [I am not very good at the math]
I've asked before but did not receive a reply. I was wondering if there is new stat weights for the 3.0.8 patch? I believe Haste, Hit and Expertise values should be different with the new changes brought into KM, and Necrosis. The stat values should be higher due to these changes. Thank you in advance for your time and help! [I am not very good at the math]
I've asked before but did not receive a reply. I was wondering if there is new stat weights for the 3.0.8 patch? I believe Haste, Hit and Expertise values should be different with the new changes brought into KM, and Necrosis. The stat values should be higher due to these changes. Thank you in advance for your time and help! [I am not very good at the math]
Why would Hit and Expertise change? From what I've seen and what people have said, Killing Machine procs on misses/parries/dodges/blocks also so those wouldn't change. Now haste on the other hand might.
01/24/09, 4:49 PM
I do however have a [Broken Promise]. Would that actually perform better? It's got slightly less AP on it, less hit (although I need to upgrade my Hit Rating gems to blue quality anyways so that would cover it), and no Critical Rating. It does have more DPS though.
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