@ Hyperaktiv and Kyruski..

Hit and Expertise will affect Necrosis as stated in my post. ^.^

This post inspired me to try a 32/39'ish build with a 2hander, and I think you've really hit on something. I ran this tonight and came out #1 on every boss in naxx 25, as well as trash. Ive got recount screenshots but dont have time to post them right now.

I dont have numbers but I could swear this is the case, because I was proccing KM a bit more often than when I was DW'ing post-3.0.8.

I still have some kinks to work out -- im not sure whether obliterate is worth using when there's one mob, or if it's better to find something else to do (2x IT, wait for HB, etc) And I realy wish I had 3 talents to put into subversion...

While it's venturing offtopic for this specific thread, I'm really wondering if swapping Nerves of Cold Steel for Annhilation and a 2H will yield better results for 31/40 or 32/39.

Immediately tried this after reading. Went so far as to do 2 3-minute runs on Ebon Hold dummies.

Demise + Blood Pres capped out at 2443

Demise + Unholy Pres capped out at 2538

Angry Dread + Hailstorm + Blood Pres capped out at 2973

Angry Dread + Hailstorm + Unholy Pres capped out at 2855

PS {IT HB} BS BS
PS {HB IT} IT IT

No FF Cancel, should be the same gear as my armory (Orionknight-Eredar: 3k AP, ~10% haste, ~22% crit)

Barring the large gap in the weapons of choice it seems that the difference in melee damage alone was enough to pull the DW set ahead in these tests.

I was more pointing him towards the haste question. That post indicates that haste is in fact a highly useful stat (stated before) since it doesn't subtract ppm values, but rather strengthen them. This is true even post-patch.

Hey guys, usually I don't participate in those theorycrafting things, so tell me if I just wrote something extremely stupid.

What if you do the normal [IT PS HB BS BS IT PS HB IT IT] rotation, but with OB instead of HB. If you have a KM proccs, you just switch to HB, if Rime proccs you do the same, but followed by an OB to use the runes. This could be very viable in Unholy Presence, don't you think? I didn't test anything, just a thought. This is with 33/38 or something similar. Maybe someone could test this? I'll try if i have some free time. Could be interesting.

If I understand correctly, DW just scales better in terms of white dmg now. But does OB hit harder than HB noncrit with a 2hander? If the answer is "yes", than this could be viable.

PS: Sorry my bad english, it's not my first language.

/edit: My bad, never used OB. It hits for way less than HB, but i don't know if Sunder Armor/Raid Buffs could change that.
WIth 2 T7, Rime and Annihilation, OB has +23% Crit chance if I'm not mistaken. Obviously Glyph of OB will be taken, so OB could very well come out on top.

Ahhh, I forgot about the Necrosis change and was just thinking about KM procs. My bad. Though with the new Necrosis, the usefulness of Hit and Expertise shouldn't change drastically. I know it will increase white damage, Necrosis, and BCB but it's still somewhat of a miniscule increase imo with the usefulness of increasing Hit and Expertise. The bulk of your damage will still come from your Magic output if I'm not mistaken.

Did a little testing on this with a low level DK, spent about 5 minutes swinging against a boss target dummy and did not proc KM once. So I can be reasonably sure that misses, parries, and dodges do not proc KM.

Also did some testing regarding haste and the ppm for KM. Using a base 3.4 speed weapon:
5% haste (weapon speed 3.24): 197 hits, 44 procs. ppm of 4.04 (95% CI of 3.04 to 5.25)
25% haste (weapon speed 2.70): 278 hits, 72 procs. ppm of 5.76 (95% CI of 4.76 to 7.01)

Not conclusive, but does seem to indicate that the ppm effect is scaling with haste in 3.0.8.

These are my numbers on a 3 minute run on a test dummy as 44/27 2h spec.
I have been testing different rotations, this test was IT PS HB BS BS RP dump (frost strike) IT PS HB IT IT RP dump.

2539 personal dps
362.5 ghoul dps
883.9 gargoyle dps

I had 24 KM procs for roughly around 8 ppm.



I am still waiting on a good OH for DW but seeing as they are making KM a MH only proc of 5 ppm, I think I might stick with this spec. Its a cleaner rotation, more mobility, and we already have a full unholy dk in the raid so I dont need to get UA and CF. I also like Annihilation in this spec for when rime procs, so I can throw in a free HB and OB without messing with my rotation.

The gap does indeed make a difference, as well as the fact that dummies aren't raid-debuffed. They don't have Sunder Armor, for example, which would benefit Oblit.

That said, I think you're correct that 2H 32/39 is inferior to DW 32/39, especially on a single target.

I spent a few hours today testing the idea in Dr_allcom's spreadsheet. No matter what I tried, I could not get it to show higher DPS on a 2H 32/39... DW always won out. The original poster of the 2H 32/39 idea made a valid point, that with the changes to KM, there is much less of a difference between 2H and DW. There is still a difference.

I wanted to see exactly where it was that 2H was failing, and here are the DPS results for equivalent gear:

DW:

White damage 930.69
Yellow damage: 2330.68
Necrosis + BCB: 326.18
Ghoul: 290.37
Summon: 181

2H

White damage: 762.71
Yellow damage: 2334.46
Necrosis + BCB: 227.31
Ghoul: 302.65
Summon: 188.33

Everything is essentially the same, except 2H is inferior in white damage and Necrosis+BCB. On a single target, that breaks the deal.

Dr_allcoms' sheet also confirmed that with a 32/39'ish spec, HB does more damage than OB even with 2h, making the 3 points in annihilation when 2H'ing give you far less total dps than 3 points in Nerves of Steel would when DW'ing.

This post probably restates a lot of what everyone knows but I think it pretty much lays 2H 32/39 to rest, in my mind anyways..

EDIT: or not..

I'm testing this on a dummy and I cant get DW to outperform 2H. I can easily gain 2-300 dps by swapping to a 2H. Now, I know I'm missing necrosis damage, but I'm also missing sunders. I think there's a flaw in orion's testing because he isn't using obliterates (and consequently the sigil and glyph). Gonna go 2H tonight and see how it goes.

Don't forget that Obliterate has a far far higher critrate then HB, even without the blood talents, which makes it a lot better then HB. Save KM procs for ITs, it adds more dmg per proc then when u use it on a HB which takes an OB spot (and OB already crits like mad on its own). Only use a KM proc on HB when Rime procs.

Another often overlooked difference between 2H and DW is that DW gets an extra rune weapon enchantment. Cinderglacier adds quite a nice amount of dmg (and sadly favours HB over OB).

P.S.: im wondering why your ghoul does more dmg when you wield a 2H. Im guessing you took a 2H with str on it and DW weapons without str?

Raid buffs/debuffs do not favor OB over HB to an aneurysmally dramatic degree.

The raid buffs/debuffs scalable to AP:

PHYSICAL
Sunder Armor + Faerie Fire: ~1.22 multiplier
Blood Frenzy: 1.02 multiplier
LotP: 5% crit bonus
BoK + MotW: ~0.5% crit bonus (HoW assumed for the test)

MAGICAL
Ebon Plague: 1.13 multiplier
Moonkin Aura: 5% crit bonus
Improved Scorch: 10% crit bonus
Misery: 3% hit bonus

Having an Arms Warrior in raid is not very common these days, so you essentially have 1.22 multiplier, 1.02 multiplier (sometimes), and 5.5% crit bonus for physical versus 1.13 multipler, 15% crit bonus, and 3% hit bonus for magical. Overall the buffs give a slight edge to OB, but nowhere enough to flip a 400 DPS loss on the boss dummy.

The problem with his test was that he probably wasn't using the Obliterate glyph (aneurysmally dramatic difference), 4-piece bonus (a potential game-changer, but not an aneurysmally dramatic difference here given his rotation), 3% crit bonus from Annihilation, and Sigil of Awareness. That was probably why his results were so far off conventional wisdom.

Remember also that traditional Frost 2H has Subversion and Two-Handed Weapon Specialization, which shifts things much more significantly in OB's favor than raid buffs/debuffs. Without the 4-piece bonus, I see higher numbers from IT+PS in Unholy Presence over either HB or OB in Blood Presence for 0/44/26+1 2H (Ghoul glyph for IT+PS and HB, Obliterate glyph for OB).

The point is that, even when you are using HB instead of OB in a 0/44/26+1 2H build, it still does more than a 0/44/27 DW build. Given that those DW and 2H builds have similar utility, I just don't see a good reason to go 0/44/27 DW. At least 0/31/38+2 DW variants have NotD.

The weakest part of your rotation when you have excess RP is usually your Blood Rune (commonly BS+d-IT pairs). Of course, lowering your Blood Rune use frequency reduces your RP generation, so it usually takes multiple rune sets to do a single RP-for-Blood-Rune-use sub (which is a DPS increase whether it is on BS or d-IT, unless you know combat will end shortly). Usually only good priority systems take advantage of this, but more complex rotations can do it also.

It seems to violate any logical theorycrafting. You have 6 points in Obliterate talents for a Dual Wield build, where Obliterate is of quite minimal use. You also have 3 points in blood tap, which will not provide a DPS increase. You have 6 points in Death Rune talents, to what end? You don't even have 5/5 black Ice for spamming icy touch. Your melee damage is 44% of your damage, which seems unreasonably high, you could be doing much more damage elsewhere. You IT 4 times, what exactly are the death runes doing?

It's also a 30 second report judging by 3k DPS and 90k damage, so you either blew all your cooldowns for the quick shot, or got ludicrously lucky for a quick burst on the RNG.

I've been following the 2H discussion on this thread, and I'm wondering what I'd give up if I went 0/44/27 instead of 0/32/39. There is already an Unholy DK in the raid that I could count on to spread Ebon Plague. The only downfall apparent to me is missing out on Night of the Dead. The more I look at it, the more benefit I see to going 0/44/27 instead.

With all this speculation at a 32/39 2h build, I wonder, would a rotation like this one be viable?

Blood Tap -

IT BS OB HB

BS IT OB HB

etc. would make this build capable of an actual rotation, and you could use freezing fog procs effectively by adding in another OB whenever you get one.

Example:

IT (Freezing Fog) BS OB OB HB

BS IT (Freezing Fog) OB OB HB

Of course the above rotation is assuming lucky RNG, but meh. It sounds promising.

Some info:
Unholy presence
MH: [Torment of the Banished] Fallen Crusader
OH: [Hatestrike] Cinderglacier
Rotation: IT,PS,HB,BS,BS,RP dump - IT,PS,HB,IT,IT,RP dump
Gargoyle popped after 5 flight stacked + mirror proc

So I finally got to test my 31/40 build after the new patch. Looking at recount after we cleared it, I was on #1 spot in overall dmg (mainly due to Howling Blast on trash <3).
I definitely love NotD, my ghoul survived on every boss without problems except sapphiron where he died once.

Now when I analyzed my dps on bosses I reached 4k dps on most bosses which i'm happy with (considering the nerf to DW). During some bosses I messed up my rotation from time to time so I guess my dps can be higher with more practice.

But I'm not happy about my dps on patchwerk. Only got to 4.5k dps & looking at the 'Finding Top DPS' thread below here, it looks like i'm lacking behind with 500-700dps although my gear is pretty much equal compared to others with +5k dps.
Any tips about what I'm maybe doing wrong are welcome.

I already respecced to a new build: 32/39
I removed one point from Crypt Fever & took 2/2 Merciless combat. This should increase my dps by a bit imo.

WWS from naxx run: Wow Web Stats

Obviously my dps is lower on WWS here cause of no ghoul :<

[quote=Squished;1073765]That said, I think you're correct that 2H 32/39 is inferior to DW 32/39, especially on a single target.
QUOTE]

I was testing my Cryptfiends Bite today vs my Silent Crusader / Split Greathammer combo. Using a standard 0/32/39 spec and a HB>PS(if disease down)>IT>DC>BS>PS preference order I was coming up 2-300 dps lower with the 2-hander consistantly (roughly 2700-2800 for duel wield, 2500-2600 with the 2-hander). Seems to me like duel wield is still better for this build.

To get more than 20 points in blood, you essentially have to 5 waste points.

I came up with a similar spec a while back in hopes of a build that would grab Abomination's Might. It would work similar to that of a deep Unholy build, using Icy Touch for damage, and Obliterate to create Unholy Runes for additional Icy Touches. It seemed like an interesting idea, but ultimately discarded it, since it seemed that the use of Obliterate would better suit a 2 Hander, and the useless talent points to achieve Abomination's Might. Lack of Night of the Dead wasn't to attractive either. Though I wouldn't be opposed to anyone giving it a go.

@Shmuk: Unless it has changed, Blood Pres should still be better than Unholy which might be a little bit of your problem.

Well I got the same question... already got 1 [Last Laugh] and thinking about the second one... Please advise us if this item worths fight with tanking dudes when KT will drop it... anyway it is highest dps 1h weapon we can use...

Thanks

Mate do more then 94k dmg done in test and then post your screen... If test isn't longer then 3 minutes then it's nothing...
I can do 3000+ easy with any random specc if I can stop at 94k dmg. Your specc can't do high dps because I see 900 avg dmg and 2000 avg crit dmg there what's for main skill realy low... Just DC or FS in 44/27 or 32/39 can easy beat your obliterate which need to be main skill with top dmg hits

My character tab tells my i have 11.67% spellhit.

I didn't pop AoTD, can do that next time but it wont make a 500dps increase.

I posted my rotation at the beginning of my post (IT,PS,HB,BS,BS,RP dump - IT,PS,HB,IT,IT,RP dum). It's a fixed rotation, no priorities.

I tested blood pres & unholy pres on the boss dummy for some hours & found that unholy pres works best for me. Maybe in raids that blood pres comes out on top, i'll try it next raid and see what the result is.