They're not the only ones =\

Most of us come here to avoid as many repeat questions and naive statements as possible, yet this thread seems full of them.

This thread has made me far more apathetic about theorycrafting than I've ever been. Not because of dumb posts and not wanting to sift through them...it's simply because it seems the final result of all the discussion is "it depends". Obviously everyone is coming here to help find the ideal to shoot for, and because they find DW builds fun, but as has been pointed out, there are SO many variables when it comes to DK dps it's far more difficult to model/discuss than any other class. Therefore, I believe everyone should try to be a lot less definitive in their statements...what you think is "hard evidence" might not be.

Also, although there obviously exists an optimal situation to reach, I think the game has finally reached a point where all things being equal, facerolling is within a few hundred dps of the maximum. It's kind of liberating and depressing at the same time, but given that I've been playing for 4 years I'm strangely fine with it.

Random question but does anyone else have problems with aotd not showing up on recount or wws? I was "top" dps in my raid tonight and I was going to use the wws report to post up here, but unfortunately its lacking the 100k of damage I had on MY recount. Does aotd not show up in it?

My spec has retained its 0/31/40 set up as it still has functioned the best for me. Rotation wise i'm honestly not set in stone with one yet, its more priority on what I feel like using...once I can actually figure what that all is i'm going to make a bit more in-depth post.

I did have a question on weapons; i've since switched up to using the Broken promise and hailstorm as my mainhand/offhand setup. I've found it to work better for me than fast/fast with my melee damage increasing quite a bit. Again i'll have more parsed info to look at once I can find a worthwhile thing to use, im new to this.

AotD does show up on recount, but WWS currently has difficulty handling it. You could try WoWMeter, as it appears to be capable of handing the swarms of ghouls.

Well I agree with Dukes. Dummy test is result of lack statistics for different DW setups in real raids... But i cant afford to equip random weapons and go to Patchwork 25 to test them, because my guild master will be unhappy with such tests

2 Fargom: Its a great idea to refresh the old DW specs post and make normal post with stats, gear, rotations for 3.0.8

Testing in raid is the same as dummy maybe little worse. DPS in raid is affected by too many aspects. And one important aspect is other dps members. Their high dps = your high dps. So players can't compare their dps if they aren't in the same raid and dps can be very different with same gear, specc and rotation. And another thing is that one player can't compare his own dps from first and second raid week because of changes in raid composition. Maybe you can get the same buffs but a change in dps members is change in your dps too. At the dummy u can have the same buff as another players and u aren't affected by another dps in party...
That low dps on dummy is very small affected by lack of raid buffs so if players want to compare their dps and new ideas than this way -=>>> dummy
For example my top dps in naxx25 at patchwerk is just crapy 5100 and its the top dps in our raid too... no one pass 5000 dps at PW in my raid just me... I'm sure that in better raid I'll hit 6000+ whats really big difference

As a long time reader (over 3 years) from the perspective of multiple classes, I must completely agree. While test dummies may provide raw data, most of us here are aware of raw data. What we're not aware of are the aspects that are not readily identifiable, which require acknowledgment from the poster. All of which include:

Rotation, Talent Build (with link!), weapons, runes, etc.

When I read I usually prioritize what I"m looking for. Rotations and specific talent builds fall on top. If you post a talent build, be sure to link the actual point allocations along with the rotation as well. There's nothing more frustrating then seeing a helpful post, but not being able to replicate it because you're not sure what talent points to spec and what rotation to use...

The point is this: ***Do not assume that everyone reading has been doing so since page one. Not everyone is familiar with every single standard build. Links are necessary.***

Forusak
And how paradoxal was that statement? Why would someone go for the dummy if it is actaully a worse reference? You are just shooting yourself in the foot here. Dummies are only viable references if you want to test rotations and look for procs.

You are missing the point. A spec isn't getting justified by one test with all CD blown on a dummy, boss, whatever.... The relevance lies within a whole instance run and data gatthered from AOE fights, boss fights, movement fights, static fights, procs, buffs etc etc with X or Y spec in mind (and not just the spec name but the spec in detail). The longer parses, the better result.

That doesn't tell us anything. And Patchwerk is not a way to describe how viable your spec is.

I'm 0/32/39 for a while now but I'm still not sure what the best aoe rotation is. Right now, my rotation is IT->PS->Pestilence->HB. But somehow, it doesn't feel right, not to use DnD. Maybe you can help?

I'm pretty new to death knights myself, but if i've been reading and executing correctly, your regular rotation IS your aoe rotation. HB does a hell of a lot of aoe damage. So your'e looking at

IT>PS>HB>BS>BS>Dump
IT>PS>HB>IT>IT> Dump

Actually Pestilence is rather good for AoE/trash, particularly if you have the glyph. Also, BB is more appropriate in this situation than BS. So I would suggest IT-->PS-->Pestilence-->HB-->BB-->DC as a basic rotation, adjusted as needed based on KM/FF procs. I do not use D&D except on mobs with low HP, such as some packs in the Spider Wing or either of the gauntlets in Naxx.

I agree here. Also, if you have picked up CE, the AoE damage can really pile up.

IT > PS > Pest > HB > BB > CE -- really burns down mobs.

I had a question about Str vs. AP in DW build

I know str is better because it scales with kings and Shadow of Death and Ravenous Dead, and because ghoul gets a % of str.

Are there any numbers to say approx what amount of AP compensates for what amount of str? I don't know if I worded that appropriately, but an example:

bracer enchantment:
12 str vs 38 AP (i know there is a 50 AP as well, which i would assume would be far better, so lets use 38 for arguments sake)
Which one would be better?

It would seem, with BoK, SoD, RD would be +15%
so 12 * 1.15 = 13.8 str
13.8 * 2 = 27.6 AP

so the 38 AP seems better, but how does the ghoul figure into this? how much extra str does he gain and how much does that str affect his dmg?

Also, I agree with the previous poster who said there should be a Post 3.08 DW dps thread

Might I recommend something more along the lines of:
IT > Pest > HB > BB > DC (7.5 sec.; tab to an off target)
HB > Pest > IT > BB/BT+HB > PS > DC (should be able to repeat)

The idea being you HB as soon as you have FF on all targets, at the 3rd GCD (4.5 sec + latency). By then letting the unholy run rot for, your frost rune from the leading IT becomes available right at 10 sec (0.5 seconds after the HB CD is up).

The U/F pair then leads off every rotation thereafter (if there's anything left at that point), and is a global ahead of your last Pestilence, making it fairly easy to keep disease up by simply tabbing to a new target each time. With Blood Tap, you get 3 HBs in the first rotation as fast as possible.

There may be an alternate way to do this better, of course. I just thought I'd quickly mention the rotation I've seemed to fall into here lately.

Caveat, I don't have Desecration at the moment, and I did pick up Outbreak (trying BB instead of BS, thanks to my 6.5% dodge chance with the latter, v. my almost zero miss chance of the former). So this does change my priorities a bit.

The most important point regarding Pestilence though is that HB does double damage against targets afflicted by Frost Fever, and 10% more via Glacier Rot.

I asked this a little bit ago but I don't know if anyone noticed. It'd be nice to see a comparison of a 0/20/51 build to a 0/32/38+1 or 0/44/27 build when the 16% haste buff from a Windfury Totem (if not 20% from an Enh Shaman or another DK's IIT) is included for the 0/20/51 build in terms of DPS. I don't think I would be capable of doing the math on it without messing up somewhere and I don't know if I'd be able to get a good WWS report quickly because my guild tends not be good on attendance...
The reason why I'm asking this is because people tend to forget to include the Haste bonus when doing calculations so I'd be interested in seeing how these builds perform against each other in an actual raid situation (buffs).

I think what he's trying to say is that dummy can result the same data as raid bosses IF you have raid buffs/raid debuffs.

Also I don't know why many people here are against dummy testing. Although it is quite different from actual boss, but the missing buffs/debuffs are pretty much either constant value or constant percentage. One can easily get a number from a dummy, then factor in the raid buffs.

According to a blue, in a typical ideal raid, there will be these buffs/debuffs that affect DK

# Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor---- 3925
# Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness---- 1260
# Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)---- 2%
# Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem---- 20%
# Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage---- 5%
# Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might---- 550
# Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage---- 10%
# Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem---- 5%(uncertain if this affects GCD)
# Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath---- 5%
# Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill---- 10%
# Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements----13%
# Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery---- 3%
# Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution---- 3%
# Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution---- 3%
# Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath---- 3%
# Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings---- 10%
# Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild---- 37 stats and 750 armor
# Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter---- 86

In addition there is Hysteria, Bloodlust, etc.

If one is to do a dummy test, you can either try to get all these buffs, or do it without and factor them in after your number.

The finalized damage for the second option will look something like this:

(dummy test dps + flat raid buffs/debuffs)*percent raid buffs/debuffs.

I'm not quite familar with some of the stats to percent conversion (armor for example), so I won't try to come up with a formula here unless someone can enlight me.

So the only thing left to be done is to fill the puzzle on each of the buffs/debuffs listed above

The problem with you trying to do a flat percentage multiplication on the dummy DPS is it doesn't work that way - some raid buffs only affect spells, some raid buffs only affect strikes, some affect both depending on spec. The main sticking point is people concluding that, in a test case without all these buffs, X skill is better than Y skill; except that in a raid, the reverse is quite likely to be true (most commonly seen when comparing Obliterate and Howling Blast as UF dumps for a 2H deep frost build, or even FS/DC as a RP dump).

Two things. For one, this is about DW DPS. I'm not saying Unholy presence is worst for *all* DK specs, I'm saying it's suboptimal for the DW Frost/Unholy hybrids people have been talking about for pages and pages here.

Second, how on earth do you get a rotation using Plague Strike twice per rune set being optimal? This is precisely what I was talking about. Turn the second PS -> IT into a Howling Blast and you gain DPS, even before the 15% blood modifier. Also, with a two hander why on earth would you use BB over BS? The only way BB has a shot of coming out above BS is when
A. Your BS doesn't hit hard because you're DWing
B. There's an advantage in BLOOD PRESENCE because BB gets a lower GCD due to Haste while BS doesn't and
C. Blood Boil doesn't miss, which is again moot with a 2H


Is there a theoretical point where Unholy could be better than Blood? Sure. In practical terms is Unholy better than Blood? Hasn't been seen... and coming up with lower DPS builds just to make Unholy better than Blood for an inferior build is kind of pointless.

That's definitely not what the formula will end up to be, it is only what it should LOOK like, in a fairly simplistic view. Of course when it comes down to detail multiplication, each spell should at least uses its own formula considering the difference between talents and coefficients.

So in the end it should, again LOOK something like this:

Total dps in raid = (melee damage on dummy +/- constant)*multiplier + (howling blast on dummy +/- constant)*multiplier +....

And if you did a dummy test, you can simply plug in the number you get on the dummy on your own to figure out how your dps should look like in raid.

Oh and another thing to mention is to not double count the buffs you get from yourself. In DW's case, imp icy talon and ebon plague

When you mention OB vs HB, of course sunder and ebon plague has to be taken into account. I'm not saying people should compare numbers from their recount screenshot next to each other. All I'm saying is, testing dps on dummy is viable.

This is my frist time really posting on theorycraft stuff so forgive me if i come off dumb about a few things =P
My friend and I came up wit ha dual wielding spec and was wondering how it would do in a 10-25 man, this spec is
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The idea of this spec it to use pretty fast weapon,s much like hatestrike, maexxnas femur, splitstrike hammer if that is the name of it, etc... Do to the very fast attack speed of the weapon, as well as the 25% haste alone from frost, is already about 1.2 seconds. What will do a good percent of the damage is the necrosis and blood caked blade, since due to the attack speed will proc alot. The rotation is as follows..

PS->IT->BS->BS->FS->FS(if you have enough runic power)-> then HB.

The reason for doing howling blast instead of obliterate is because of all the talents that contribute to its damage, Impurity, Black Ice, and Glacier Rot. Im not to sure on how much a ghoul and gargoyle will add to a DKs dps, so if there is something i could do with those two talents, please let me know. Also, im having trouble with finding a third glyph, theres glyph of frost strike-reduces runic power cost of frsot strike by 8, glyph of icy touch-increases the runic power generated from you icy touch ability by 10, and the third could be Glyph of the ghoul-your ghoul recieves an extra 40% stamina and strength of yours

Like i said, this is my very first theorycraft post so if i left other things out please let me know so i may edit this.

Well I guess I'll be the first to take a stab at this build...

If you aren't going to be using OB, then why put points into Annihilation. I know about the 3% crit it adds but the points are better spent elsewhere. I personally would put those 3 points into Runic Power Mastery which will be able to throw 4 Frost Strikes when your RP is full.

Also your rotation should be so tight that you won't need Epidemic. I don't know why you didn't pick up Virulence because most of your DPS is from spells so switch the points in Epidemic and Outbreak into Virulence 3/3.

What do you know, we have a cookie-cutter 0/44/27 Build.

As for Rotation, do something like
PS > IT > BS > BS > HB > FS Dump
PS > IT > HB > IT > IT > FS Dump

As for weapon speeds, you might want to go slow/fast to increase FS (and PS and BS) Damage. Though if all you have are fast weapons, those should still do fine.

With Glyphs, you'll want the IT, FS, and Ghoul Glyph.

Also you might want to read through this whole thread before posting. There have been many posts of 0/44/27 builds and why each talent is chosen and what's best.

The first reason is that PS+IT generates 35 RP while HB generates 20 RP (remember that there is no 4-piece bonus for HB). When you are using Unholy Presence, you are not comparing HB to PS+IT, you are comparing HB to PS+IT+0.46875xFS, including IT's 15% chance to proc Freezing Fog.

The second reason is that HB has a cooldown. If you use HB in your regular rotation, you get the 5-sec cooldown back-to-back-to-back latency leeway problem when you chuck your Freezing Fog HB, akin to what you get with 4xHB rotations (like the one I described in my last post).



The exact numbers depend on how you deal with a Blood rune dodge/miss (which in turn depends on how you model latency/GCD leftover leeway). In principle, a Death-rune-generating Blood rune dodge/miss impacts DPS more than just subtracting the damage done by the Blood-rune ability itself (see earlier posts in this thread for more details on this effect; in practice, you are riding the latency leeway edge in Unholy Presence at between 17 and 18 GCDs).

In Unholy Presence, this effect is often amplified because there is often no "RP leeway" characteristic of Blood presence, with which small amounts of reduced RP generation up to a point does not affect DPS (because you are generating more RP than you have GCDs to use). In Unholy Presence, a dodged BS can cost more than half a FS from just the reduced RP generation, before you even consider the lost Blood/Death damage average and the potential interruption to your rotation.



A week and a half into the patch is too early to hand out the "top DPS" trophy to one and the "lower DPS" consolation ribbons to everybody else.