What many people fail to consider with all these builds is that Merciless Combat will be active 100% of the time, because the dummy is at 1 hp always. Necrosis will also deal 1 damage, instead of 20% of your weapon damage, for the same reason.
Furthermore, say a spec doesn't get the haste buff from Imp. Icy Talons (total of 25% haste) they will still have Windfury in a raid (16-20%) which wont show up if you are sitting there DPSing a dummy by yourself. Same thing with the AP buff from from blood. In a raid you will almost certainly have that, even if not spec'd for it.
The list goes on. The point is that in a raid you will basically have ALL the buffs that can assist your damage, while on a dummy you'll have only the buffs you spec for. This does not even include the DEBUFFS on the mob itself: Major/minor armor debuffs, Ebon Plague, Imp. Scorch, Blood Frenzy, etc. etc.
These buffs and debuffs all stack and/or interact with each other and vastly increase your dps. There's a reason you do 2.5k on a dummy 3.5k in a 10-man and 5k in a 25-man raid.
The first reason is that PS+IT generates 35 RP while HB generates 20 RP (remember that there is no 4-piece bonus for HB). When you are using Unholy Presence, you are not comparing HB to PS+IT, you are comparing HB to PS+IT+0.46875xFS, including IT's 15% chance to proc Freezing Fog.
The second reason is that HB has a cooldown. If you use HB in your regular rotation, you get the 5-sec cooldown back-to-back-to-back latency leeway problem when you chuck your Freezing Fog HB, akin to what you get with 4xHB rotations (like the one I described in my last post).
The exact numbers depend on how you deal with a Blood rune dodge/miss (which in turn depends on how you model latency/GCD leftover leeway). In principle, a Death-rune-generating Blood rune dodge/miss impacts DPS more than just subtracting the damage done by the Blood-rune ability itself (see earlier posts in this thread for more details on this effect; in practice, you are riding the latency leeway edge in Unholy Presence at between 17 and 18 GCDs).
In Unholy Presence, this effect is often amplified because there is often no "RP leeway" characteristic of Blood presence, with which small amounts of reduced RP generation up to a point does not affect DPS (because you are generating more RP than you have GCDs to use). In Unholy Presence, a dodged BS can cost more than half a FS from just the reduced RP generation, before you even consider the lost Blood/Death damage average and the potential interruption to your rotation.
A week and a half into the patch is too early to hand out the "top DPS" trophy to one and the "lower DPS" consolation ribbons to everybody else.
Unholy doesn't give you 3x time casting speed to be pulling PS -> IT -> 1/2 a FS in the time that blood puts out a HB. The entire point of the Blood > Unholy argument is that you're cherry picking the most effective uses of your time. Even if it generates runic power, you're still using up a one second GCD on Plague Strike. In Blood, HB's cooldown will end up being lower than 1.5 due to haste.
Your argument for BB is interesting, but it's entirely dependant on missing BS. As your gear gets better, your miss rate on BS goes down and I can't imagine that the miss rate is high enough to make BB come out on top. Further, you're arguing for a Frost Strike build where I'm fairly sure 2H would have the advantage overall anyway... and again, would prefer BS.
I'm not crowning one spec the best and the rest inferior. I'm saying that what we currently know to be true and have seen empirical evidence of (Each spec that has a thread here, pretty much) lie in contradiction to what you're saying. And if you're not claiming that this is an improvement on the old specs, why are you bringing it up?
What many people fail to consider with all these builds is that Merciless Combat will be active 100% of the time, because the dummy is at 1 hp always. Necrosis will also deal 1 damage, instead of 20% of your weapon damage, for the same reason.
Furthermore, say a spec doesn't get the haste buff from Imp. Icy Talons (total of 25% haste) they will still have Windfury in a raid (16-20%) which wont show up if you are sitting there DPSing a dummy by yourself. Same thing with the AP buff from from blood. In a raid you will almost certainly have that, even if not spec'd for it.
The list goes on. The point is that in a raid you will basically have ALL the buffs that can assist your damage, while on a dummy you'll have only the buffs you spec for. This does not even include the DEBUFFS on the mob itself: Major/minor armor debuffs, Ebon Plague, Imp. Scorch, Blood Frenzy, etc. etc.
These buffs and debuffs all stack and/or interact with each other and vastly increase your dps. There's a reason you do 2.5k on a dummy 3.5k in a 10-man and 5k in a 25-man raid.
Heroic dummy has HP and merciless combat is not up 100% of the time and necrosis works fine on it. This is what people are testing on...
It fine for testing, all the buffs/debuffs you can add on to your DPS and get and approximation of where your DPS would be in a raid.
The point is to do this in unholy presence. that with an enhance sham will gave 35% haste alone, not including gear that will give you more and the GCD reduction allows for a lot of death coils, especially off of sudden doom procs. Gargoyle is of course the main runic power dump, but with the long CD death coil serves fine until it is up. The most intriguing aspect of this spec is the way it scales with STR. You get 13% more STR and when coupled with Kings, among other raid buffs, goes over 20% and im not sure but should be more like 24-25%. Not only does that scale with gear, but that means your spells (gargoyle, DC & diseases) also scale great. Add in the fact that when you are above 75% HP you do 19% more physical dmg, 10% more spell dmg, and have utility in that you have hysteria, mark of blood and a glyphed rune tap means party heals. Im not sure about blood worms, but with DW they will pretty much always be up, and for only 3 points you add around 100 dps and heal you in the process can't be too bad.
Rotation:
IT>PS>HS>HS>OB/DS
IT>PS>HSx4
Obviously, you want to use DC whenever you can, especially in the first rotation because OB isn't talented and will cancel diseases, or if you want to just leave diseases up you can DS instead, it will still activate DR's. The beauty of this is that you can pretty much spam death coil and not run out of runic power. generally SD procs 2-3 times per full rotation, and because of the reduced GCD that means you can cast 6-7 of them easy. Being able to cast DC like this is what makes using unholy presence the better option, even though you do less damage per hit you get in a lot more hits. Plus moving around faster helps too.
The main problem is this: the rotation can get messy. I haven't quite been able to come up with one that works all the time because SD can proc any moment. Also, i talented diseases to last longer, so it almost seems like a waste to do them again at the beginning of the second half of the rotation. any thoughts or help or stats will be appreciated, i want to find a way to make this work.
I have tried something similiar to that build, but it was a while back. I would say that it can be fun in a raid environment (tried it on 10man naxx and few heroics) it is far below the standards of a typical DW build. Heart strike hits for less than what an Icey touch would do in a raid buffed area. My Icey touches hit for around 3k unbuffed while heart strike and obliterate hit for around 2-3 k crit.
I'll have more on details about it, when I have more time.
The point is to do this in unholy presence. that with an enhance sham will gave 35% haste alone, not including gear that will give you more and the GCD reduction allows for a lot of death coils, especially off of sudden doom procs. Gargoyle is of course the main runic power dump, but with the long CD death coil serves fine until it is up. The most intriguing aspect of this spec is the way it scales with STR. You get 13% more STR and when coupled with Kings, among other raid buffs, goes over 20% and im not sure but should be more like 24-25%. Not only does that scale with gear, but that means your spells (gargoyle, DC & diseases) also scale great. Add in the fact that when you are above 75% HP you do 19% more physical dmg, 10% more spell dmg, and have utility in that you have hysteria, mark of blood and a glyphed rune tap means party heals. Im not sure about blood worms, but with DW they will pretty much always be up, and for only 3 points you add around 100 dps and heal you in the process can't be too bad.
Rotation:
IT>PS>HS>HS>OB/DS
IT>PS>HSx4
Obviously, you want to use DC whenever you can, especially in the first rotation because OB isn't talented and will cancel diseases, or if you want to just leave diseases up you can DS instead, it will still activate DR's. The beauty of this is that you can pretty much spam death coil and not run out of runic power. generally SD procs 2-3 times per full rotation, and because of the reduced GCD that means you can cast 6-7 of them easy. Being able to cast DC like this is what makes using unholy presence the better option, even though you do less damage per hit you get in a lot more hits. Plus moving around faster helps too.
The main problem is this: the rotation can get messy. I haven't quite been able to come up with one that works all the time because SD can proc any moment. Also, i talented diseases to last longer, so it almost seems like a waste to do them again at the beginning of the second half of the rotation. any thoughts or help or stats will be appreciated, i want to find a way to make this work.
That's pretty close to how the 2H Blood specs are running. There's no reason to DW when your main damage is Heart Strike and Obliterate. Just hop on over to the 2H Blood thread and you'll find this discussed heavily.
When creating a spec think about:
- What you're giving up to get what you're getting
- How much damage your major attacks will do in comparison to major attacks from other specs.
If you cannot approximate what kind of damage particular attacks will do, then either try the spec or theorycraft what kind of damage you'll do. Saying "oh you get this talent and this talent and this talent" is no good without considering what you're giving up to get those talents.
Also consider why you're proposing this as a dual wield build. The major attack you're looking at is heart strike, which does damage based upon a portion of your weapon damage. There is no reason why the spec you're proposing is better for dual wield than two-handed. The dual wield builds generally specialise in Icy Touch / Howling Blast / DC based builds, as they're all spells which take no portion of your weapon damage into account.
You also state that Sudden Doom will generally proc 2-3 times per full rotation, when it's a 20% proc chance on a heart strike - you're using 6 HS per cycle you'll get 1.2 procs average per rotation. Trying to create a rotation for this is probably the wrong thing to do as dual wield anyway, because death coil will crit harder than anything else you do as that spec so a priority system is likely to be of more benefit than a straight rotation.
It's not fine for testing, I have yet to see anyone add or approximate their DPS after doing a dummy parse. It's not easy and it's prone to errors.
Someone failing at considering the buffs/debuffs on dummy testing doesn't mean it is not viable. Like I said in my post, if one can come up with a formula for dummy test(which is doable, given we know pretty much all the difference between an ideal boss fight and a dummy test), whoever tested his dps on a dummy can just plug in the number and estimate the raid dps. I myself will try to come up with that formula once I get time to get all the conversions(armor to dps, AP to dps, etc.), but you guys can help too you know.
Hey, I recently did some testing after seeing this spec being used by Amisme. I noticed he used a priority rotation instead of just a static rotation (which I was attached to due to 32/39) But it slowly became a 'common occurrence' of leaning towards PS > IT > BS > BS > UB > PS > IT > IT > IT > IT (Weaving Death Coils of course) Usually finishing with 2 DC's at the end - as I have only tested this spec for about an hour I am still pretty shaky on rune management, what I aim to (and hopefully others contribute towards) is keeping most (if not all) runes on CD and dumping RP during IT cooldowns.
I find this build preforms excellent AoE dps, also the dmg it puts out seems to revolve the high amount of spell dmg from Icy Touch. Running this build as Fast/Fast due to the fact it doesn't contain Killing Machine and getting more Necrosis/BCB.
As I am very new to this build I am unsure about Blood vs. Unholy presence - the reason I am unsure is if in Unholy, will I be able to weave Deaths Coils in more often between Frost Rune CD's and being able to preform skills quicker will I reach the runes fast enough to make a noticeable (+15% dmg) difference?
Priority is as follows: Keep diseases up, unholy blight up, dump runic power after 80% as to not cap it and keep runes on CD as much as possible.
And of course I tested the dps on a Heroic Training Dummy, did this in Thunder Bluff due to the lack of people, the dummy has full HP = Necrosis procs. When I tested this build against the traditional 32/39 this surpassed it by about a 200-500 margin (varied), AoE dps was a LARGE jump up - but who cares about trash dps amirite?
Like always, any feedback/comments on this is much appreciated!
Hey, I recently did some testing after seeing this spec being used by Amisme. I noticed he used a priority rotation instead of just a static rotation (which I was attached to due to 32/39) But it slowly came towards a 'common occurrence' of leaning towards PS > IT > BS > BS > UB > PS > IT > IT > IT > IT (Weaving Death Coils of course) Usually finishing with 2 DC's at the end - as I have only tested this spec for about an hour I am still pretty shaky on rune management, what I aim to (and hopefully others contribute towards) is keeping most (if not all) runes on CD and dumping RP during IT cooldowns.
I find this build preforms excellent AoE dps, also the dmg it puts out seems to revolve the high amount of spell dmg from Icy Touch. Running this build as Fast/Fast due to the fact it doesn't contain Killing Machine and getting more Necrosis/BCB.
As I am very new to this build I am unsure about Blood vs. Unholy presence - the reason I am unsure is if in Unholy, will I be able to weave Deaths Coils in more often between Frost Rune CD's and being able to preform skills quicker will I reach the runes fast enough to make a noticeable (+15% dmg) difference?
Priority is as follows: Keep diseases up, unholy blight up, dump runic power after 80% as to not cap it and keep runes on CD as much as possible.
And of course I tested the dps on a Heroic Training Dummy, did this in Thunder Bluff due to the lack of people, the dummy has full HP = Necrosis procs. When I tested this build against the traditional 32/39 this surpassed it by about a 200-500 margin (varied), AoE dps was a LARGE jump up - but who cares about trash dps amirite?
Like always, any feedback/comments on this is much appreciated!
Sounds like an interesting spec, At least you didn't bother getting Scourge Strike since it wouldn't deal too much damage any way, but what are you doing for the big "damage" hitting spells/attacks? Per say DW normally has the HB that can crit for 10-13 k depending on the boss, what do you have for that build that will deal equal amount of damage? I only messed with the unholy blight for a little bit and wandering plague, but we have a full 2h unholy DK in our guild and from what he has mentioned, those two spells deal 5-6% of his overal dps. Whether this is accurate or not I have no idea.
Another thing I noticed, is a lot of people are skipping out on the desecration for reasons that some fights require moving around. I myself would probably spend those points in outbreak with a combination of epidimec, or maybe the unholy aura for a raid buff of movement speed. but mainly outbreak for the blood boil increase.
In my rotation I hardly ever use Blood strike, and I would think that with a fast/fast build your blood strikes probably don't hit too hard. Maybe switching it with blood boil with outbreak may increase dps. (since blood boil is a spell and wont be mitigated by armor like BS and it has its other minor benifits with impurity and what not. It may not scale for much but it can be worth it in the end I've had bb crit for 1200 just like a standard BS would do.)
It sounds like a good spec to try out, but I feel a bit awkward not taking in the Dual weild specialization, it helps those OH necrosis/BCB and melee damage slightly at least. Perhaps I'll look into it more.
Right now I have a spec of 10/31/30 and it seems okay so far, I am comfortable with it, depsite my pet dying often, it doesn't bother me that much, it a dps lost but I can get it back easily
And of course I tested the dps on a Heroic Training Dummy, did this in Thunder Bluff due to the lack of people, the dummy has full HP = Necrosis procs. When I tested this build against the traditional 32/39 this surpassed it by about a 200-500 margin (varied), AoE dps was a LARGE jump up - but who cares about trash dps amirite?
As has been previously discussed, did you factor in the buffs/debuffs that you gain/lose between specs? As deep unholy you take ebon plaguebringer (13% magic damage) and crypt fever (30% disease damage), while as frost/unholy you get improved icy talons (and as deep unholy you should consider taking Unholy Aura unless there's another DK with that in your raid). Dependant on raid setup, one or the other could be of major benefit if you don't otherwise have it, and your dummy DPS needs to be adjusted for each dps setup dependant on these differences.
Sounds like an interesting spec, At least you didn't bother getting Scourge Strike since it wouldn't deal too much damage any way, but what are you doing for the big "damage" hitting spells/attacks? Per say DW normally has the HB that can crit for 10-13 k depending on the boss, what do you have for that build that will deal equal amount of damage? I only messed with the unholy blight for a little bit and wandering plague, but we have a full 2h unholy DK in our guild and from what he has mentioned, those two spells deal 5-6% of his overall dps. Whether this is accurate or not I have no idea.
Another thing I noticed, is a lot of people are skipping out on the desecration for reasons that some fights require moving around. I myself would probably spend those points in outbreak with a combination of epidemic, or maybe the unholy aura for a raid buff of movement speed. but mainly outbreak for the blood boil increase.
In my rotation I hardly ever use Blood strike, and I would think that with a fast/fast build your blood strikes probably don't hit too hard. Maybe switching it with blood boil with outbreak may increase dps. (since blood boil is a spell and wont be mitigated by armor like BS and it has its other minor benefits with impurity and what not. It may not scale for much but it can be worth it in the end I've had bb crit for 1200 just like a standard BS would do.)
It sounds like a good spec to try out, but I feel a bit awkward not taking in the Dual wield specialization, it helps those OH necrosis/BCB and melee damage slightly at least. Perhaps I'll look into it more.
Right now I have a spec of 10/31/30 and it seems okay so far, I am comfortable with it, depsite my pet dying often, it doesn't bother me that much, it a dps lost but I can get it back easily
Your right about desecration, it probably only really shines on static fights ie. Patchwerk and Loatheb, but the 5% dmg seems significant - I guess it depends on what you feel comfortable with.
Yeah when I saw this build I questioned the lack of Nerves of Cold Steel, but unless it adds more dps than Bladed Armor (Tier 1 Points are pretty much useless) then I can't see it as being a higher priority unless the lack of hit will efect it THAT much. I should be the only Unholy DK in the raid anyway due to the stacking nature of Crypt Fever/Ebon Plague. I chucked the remaining points into Outbreak really just as a filler and/or if you are right, Blood Boil being superior (I have NO clue lol.)
About the lack-of a 'special attack', as I did not create this build I can only assume that this lost dmg is made up elsewhere. I am still sceptical of its power sources for dps, that's why I have decided to take this from someone's dps post into theory crafting to help develop ideas on it =]. I am in no way some class mechanics genius like some guys in this thread, just a random DK who wants to improve dps lol.
Originally Posted by dukes
As has been previously discussed, did you factor in the buffs/debuffs that you gain/lose between specs? As deep unholy you take ebon plaguebringer (13% magic damage) and crypt fever (30% disease damage), while as frost/unholy you get improved icy talons (and as deep unholy you should consider taking Unholy Aura unless there's another DK with that in your raid). Dependant on raid setup, one or the other could be of major benefit if you don't otherwise have it, and your dummy DPS needs to be adjusted for each dps setup dependant on these differences.
Well for my guilds raid setup there is always a shaman so that helps the Windfury/Icy Talons case (Though I do lose 5% personal haste). Also, I took your advice on the whole Unholy Aura thing as you can see.
Heroic dummy has HP and merciless combat is not up 100% of the time and necrosis works fine on it. This is what people are testing on...
It fine for testing, all the buffs/debuffs you can add on to your DPS and get and approximation of where your DPS would be in a raid.
The problem with dummies is that due to lack of buffs/debuffs it has huge inflation on certain aspects.
You CAN NOT use a dummy to get a clear view of which spec / rotation is better than the other. Actually you see the same happen with these 2 minute patchwerk kills. Due to the huge inflation on pets (gargoyle in particular) you get very skewed results.
Im not saying that the data you can get from dummies is worthless, and the data from patchwerk is quite valuable if you keep the inflation factors in mind.
However you can not simply account for it with a simple formula. Accounting for all buffs, debuffs requires quite some calculation. Every ability used on the dummy has to be recalculated using these factors. The only way to do this realistically is to calculate it with a PC, and basically what you get then is a spreadsheet or a simulator.
A lot of people here know that you have to take dummy results with a grain of salt. But its unbelievable how many people start to believe in misconceptions because of these dummy tests.
A guy I know did the same thing, he was testing his 2H frost build, and practiced some rotations on the dummies in Ebon Hold. He claimed to have found a great rotation, and started using it in raids. Still his dps want too great, and when i inquired about his rotation it turned out he had some weird rotation which uses like 3 howling blasts per 20 seconds, because "it did more damage than obliterate on the dummy", because the dummy isn't sundered and faerie fired.
Misconceptions are easily made if you forget that a dummy and a raid siltation are miles and miles apart.
Heroic dummy has HP and merciless combat is not up 100% of the time and necrosis works fine on it. This is what people are testing on...
No. Not always. On a populated server the heroic dummy can and will be at 1HP, reflecting merciless combat and necrosis. Not to mention that the Ebon Hold dummy especially can be affected by the overall 5% Eastern Plaguelands PvP buff. Some people account for this, some do not.
To the people suggesting you could just calculate and add on the 'raid buffs' to your dummy DPS, you run into the reason why spreadsheets (which begin with pure calculation/modelling) need to be verified by real world tests. Buffs/debuffs can interact in some pretty odd ways, may be buggy, and other things as well - saying that they can just be 'modified' is oversimplifying the situation. How would you factor in, say, a buff that depends on a raid member landing crits on a movement heavy fight? How about debuffs that can only be applied to a single target in an aoe fight? And once you have those factored in, and are already modifying your results heavily depending on what you think the overall benefit will be, how is it significantly different from just estimating DPS using a spreadsheet instead - since you have eliminated most of the real-world testing and replaced it with calculations?
Essentially, if the variance of results you could get from a '3 minute dummy test' from RNG alone is larger than the actual differences between rotations/specs/what have you, then you don't really learn anything and can't make any solid conclusions just from those dummy tests. The thing is that this applies equally to one-shot Patchwerk fights and not just dummies alone, i.e. you can't say you did 5.5k dps on Patchwerk this week with spec A, and 6k dps with spec B next week, and that automatically means B is better than A. No. You could be more practiced with the rotation of spec B, the raid makeup and buffs/debuffs could have favored B, you could have had a higher crit rate just from pure RNG while testing B etc etc. But if say a hundred (and even then the number is on the small side) people with spec A do an average of 5.5k dps on their boss fights, and another set of people do an average of 6k dps with spec B on theirs, then it is more likely (but still not a confirmed thing) that spec B does present some advantages over spec A. This would be why reporting rotation A doing 3000 dps on a dummy over 3 minutes and rotation B doing 3020 dps on a dummy over 3 minutes, followed by the conclusion that B is better, is actually quite silly.
Last edited by Embar : 01/31/09 at 10:28 PM.
On occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James Nicoll
I feel like I am doing something wrong here.. I mean, I am not EVER hitting 4k on patch, sometime's I have gotten close, but I just feel like I'm doing something wrong here.
[Build= Basic 32-39]
[Macro's in use= Cancel aura]
[Presence= Blood]
Questions:
1. When should I stop going for hit? (buffed I am now about 530 hit rating)
2. Is there any other specs I should give a shot?
3. Is there anything wrong with my rotation?
4. Is there any must have items for any Dual Wield build, Thanks.
Questions:
1. When should I stop going for hit? (buffed I am now about 530 hit rating)
2. Is there any other specs I should give a shot?
3. Is there anything wrong with my rotation?
4. Is there any must have items for any Dual Wield build, Thanks.
1. 11% For 32/39.
2. Depends on how comfortable you are.
3. Not posted, but IT > PS > BS > BS > HB > (Dump) PS > IT > IT > IT > HB (Dump) is generally accepted as the standard one (imo).
4. Not really.
1. When should I stop going for hit? (buffed I am now about 530 hit rating)
2. Is there any other specs I should give a shot?
3. Is there anything wrong with my rotation?
4. Is there any must have items for any Dual Wield build, Thanks.
1) Pretty much at 8%, after that hit value going down a lot.
2) Spec is not your problem.
3) You didn't posted what rotation you used.
4) No.
I suggest reading this thread, really. Find rotation and stat weights (Doc sheet is nice man) at least. Regem for STR, drop your PvP epics - we are not in TBC anymore - and learn to enchant your gear.
Also remember the slower boss kill is the lower your dps will be so don't expect hitting 7k dps with random pug.
1) Pretty much at 8%, after that hit value going down a lot.
If he is 0-32-39 like he posted doesnt this mean he heavily uses spells to do damage which would require a 17% hitcap, that can be achieved in raid by 11% hit + 3% virulence and +3% Shadowpriest/Raidbuffs?
If iam not mistaken i would go for 11% not 8% like a Skill-Build.
Hey guys, just returning to WoW and been leveling up my DK so been lurking here for the last couple of weeks trying to learn what I can.
Since I'm trying to currently gear for raiding I had a question, would I be better of waiting till I get raid quality gear before giving a dual wield build a shot, or would equipment from heroics (and rep and crafting) be could good of enough to start off with and still make a decent raid contribution.
I can see Dual Wield definately puts out impressive enough numbers, but is do you have to gear up towards it?
If he is 0-32-39 like he posted doesnt this mean he heavily uses spells to do damage which would require a 17% hitcap, that can be achieved in raid by 11% hit + 3% virulence and +3% Shadowpriest/Raidbuffs?
If iam not mistaken i would go for 11% not 8% like a Skill-Build.
1) 8% melee hit rating =/= 8% spell hit rating, if you would want be spell hit capped (with SP and talents) you would need 289 hit rating (11% spell hit) which equals to 8.81% melee hit.
2) I am not saying hit past 8 is useless but that value is going down a lot after melee cap and again after spell cap (for example 2.7 -> 1.3 -> 0.6).
Originally Posted by Casterbridge
Since I'm trying to currently gear for raiding I had a question, would I be better of waiting till I get raid quality gear before giving a dual wield build a shot, or would equipment from heroics (and rep and crafting) be could good of enough to start off with and still make a decent raid contribution.
DW is actually easier to gear up: you get "free" IT sigil, you don't need 2/4xT7 bonuses etc. Truth is you should spec for whatever you have better weapons for, DW is again easier - less people want 1h and you can get good OH from badges.
1) 8% melee hit rating =/= 8% spell hit rating, if you would want be spell hit capped (with SP and talents) you would need 289 hit rating (11% spell hit) which equals to 8.81% melee hit.
2) I am not saying hit past 8 is useless but that value is going down a lot after melee cap and again after spell cap (for example 2.7 -> 1.3 -> 0.6).
1) The Spellhitcap is 17% how you want to reach this with 289 (8,81%) melee hit? Virulence does account for 3% and a SP for another 3% leaving a total of 11% to reach with equipment.
2) You say melee hit rating for dual wield is still 8% so we have no white hit penalty for going dual wield? Of course the special hitcap is 8% but 0 32 39 only uses PS and some HS in the rotation that account to this rating. IT HB DC are all on the Spellhitcap.
Correct me if iam wrong but i learned it this way.
1) The Spellhitcap is 17% how you want to reach this with 289 (8,81%) melee hit? Virulence does account for 3% and a SP for another 3% leaving a total of 11% to reach with equipment.
2) You say melee hit rating for dual wield is still 8% so we have no white hit penalty for going dual wield? Of course the special hitcap is 8% but 0 32 39 only uses PS and some HS in the rotation that account to this rating. IT HB DC are all on the Spellhitcap.
Correct me if iam wrong but i learned it this way.
Spell Hit takes less to account for 1% than Melee Hit.. Make sense?
At level 80, 26.232 hit rating is equivalent to 1% hit - SPELL HIT
The chance to hit increases by 1% per 32.79 hit rating points at level 80 - MELEE HIT
1) The Spellhitcap is 17% how you want to reach this with 289 (8,81%) melee hit? Virulence does account for 3% and a SP for another 3% leaving a total of 11% to reach with equipment.
2) You say melee hit rating for dual wield is still 8% so we have no white hit penalty for going dual wield? Of course the special hitcap is 8% but 0 32 39 only uses PS and some HS in the rotation that account to this rating. IT HB DC are all on the Spellhitcap.
1) aznG explained above.
2) No, DW white miss is 26%. I said hit is most valuable before melee cap, much less valuable above melee and before spell hit and even less valuable after spell hit.
Even without 2H FS as the RP outlet, there are still builds designed to run in Unholy Presence. If you already have an Ebon Plague vendor in your raid, you can clock higher personal DPS with this Unholy Presence build (and the help of your trusty Beetlerumbler):
This build has poor utility and is mindnumbingly simplistic. No proc, no priority, nothing, just pure ability spam for a truckload of Patchwerk/dummy DPS.
This build got me thinking, so I started playing around with doc's DK spreadsheet. Mainly, my curiosity was whether Dark Conviction and Bladed Armor would be worth more than Rage of Rivendare and full Wandering Plague. After playing around for a while the highest DPS build I found was actually this:
I'm not sure if doc's sheet is miscalculating EPB or something, but this build with the same basic premise, i.e.:
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> IT -> PS -> DC -> DC
PS -> IT -> IT -> IT -> DC -> IT -> PS -> DC -> DC
clocks higher on his sheet by a significant margin. It seems like picking back up 3% of the crit from EPB and RoR mainly contribute more than Bladed Armor and Dark Conviction. Subversion could probably be moved for a higher DPS gain somewhere, but I left it for the sake of comparison (and the threat reduction/BS crit is decent as it stands).
I could be mis-using doc's spreadsheet somehow, could someone else take a look at it? The only things I switched around aside from the talents & rotation on his sheet was moving presence to UPr (which does clock higher than BPr here), moving both weapon slots to Hailstorm, and the sigil to Frozen Conscience. Edit - Also the glyphs were changed to IT/PS/Ghoul.
01/31/09, 5:15 AM
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