It makes no sense whatsoever when you're raiding bosses nobody in the party has to move for. Getting to melee range 15% faster is going to be a personal DPS increase versus filler talents you have. Getting EVERYONE in your raid moving quicker means more DPS, less wipes on movement gimmicks. Also, it means that your healers are in position faster and casting heals sooner. Giving everyone 15% movespeed means everyone can ignore movespeed enchants and get better stats.

Last week I finally got Split Hammer, now I stuck with x2 widows fury split hammer and angry dead...I currently specced 34/37

and I have been trying all different types of weapon combos and reading other wws for results on other combos...what do you think the best combo is for a for the weps I have?

Going out on a limb to say I´m starting to consider the current "trend" for dual FC useless. Unless WMO has a bug with recording its uptime, having it on both weapons does not, on average, seem to provide more unholy strenght uptime. I tested this around two weeks now, and frequently the uptime is around 43%-52% (dipping as low as 33%), which is exactly the same I was getting with FC/CG.

Tonight´s naxx if anyone wants to check it:

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

already mentioned it above, but you've got to think about things from a raidwide perspective. If you can make EVERYONE in the raid able to react faster, move faster and BE faster, why wouldn't you? That 15% really counts for something on things like Heigan or Saphiron

Not to beat a dead horse too much, but this is a topic that has gone on for a while. I recall this discussion originally coming from the enhancement shaman thread in terms of what the most ideal boot enchantment is. Here is the math. As everyone has been saying, personal performance is hardly a consideration compared to overall raid performance. Beyond that, the unholy aura is one of the strongest DPS talents you have on any fight that requires movement.

So has anyone done the math on this in depth to figure out if it's worth Using Dual FC vs. FC/CG?

But the problem with that is, like I said, im NOT seeing consistent higher uptime than single FC. Im leaving soon so dont have the time right now, but I will do somewhat of a more detailed comparison later on, from WMO.

But right now I dont think there is any real benefit from dual FC.

Wow Web Stats

That shows me and another DK on Patchwerk he is Blood using a 2H, whats funny is I am using 2 Hailstorms (1.5s) and I get 6 procs with dual FC, and he gets 10 with Deaths Bite which is like 3.4s. So really I guess its just all down to getting lucky, personally I'm going back to Razorice on my offhand much to the joy of our Frostfire mage.

Blood should be seeing a lot of FC procs, since they're using a ton of instant cast strikes. Keep in mind that the only things besides autoattacks that we're doing are PS and BS. Diseaseless blood is spamming weapon attacks with every rune they use, and slow weapons have a much higher per strike chance to proc a PPM ability.


Also, judging procrates of a infrequent PPM ability by a data sample of under 3 minutes is utterly useless.


EDIT: As a sidenote, I realised that Fallen Crusader uptime is a variable I hadn't seen mentioned much, if at all in the Blood Strike vs. Blood Boil debate. For that matter, instant strike procs also skew preference toward slow mainhands.

This made me curious, so I decided to go beat on the test dummy in Ebon Hold for a while. I wore my normal gear in blood presence and just autoattacked the dummy for a while while running Proculas to track my procs.


~13 minutes using FC/FC




~23 minutes using FC/CG




I realize that the times for my tests were not equal and that haste/hit/etc will all affect the rates I'm seeing, but comparing the two PPM values (2.83 vs 1.35) to each other seems to support the theory that dual FC increases Unholy Strength's uptime. Whether or not this is a DPS increase over Cinderglacier or Razorice is an entirely different matter - one which I'm not able to test right now.

There is something very weird going on then, if that test shows double FC PPM about twice as high as on a single weapon, but on bosses WMO is telling me im getting virtually the same uptime with FC/FC or FC/CG.

Compare FC/CG: Unholy Strength : 7 Times ( 01:14 , 46% ) -http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/40311259#buffer

To this week´s PW FC/FC: Unholy Strength : 5 Times ( 01:16 , 52% ) -http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/48077269#buffer

Comparing 2 runs of under three minutes of fighting is going to tell you nothing conclusive. Napkin math says 1.6 speed weapon will have 2.66% chance per swing of proccing FC if it's one PPM. Complaining that your tiny sample of anecdotal evidence is running contrary to theory is just silly, since either result is well within the realm of reasonable chance.

And if I'm reading your numbers right, your Dual FC run *never overwrote itself* if there's 5 15 second procs for 1:15 uptime. Your single hand procced repeatedly, overwriting itself significantly. Since every other body of evidence shows that there's no magical ICD when having FC on two hands and not on one, you should be able to discern that the DW FC parse was a bit of a freakish run, refreshing itself only when it was off and never clipping. Likewise, single hand FC procced repeatedly in an overlapping chain. If you can't analyze those numbers, why even post them?

I can understand well enough the percentage uptime and compare them, my point for posting those parses. Feel free to make up more elaborate ways to determine if dual FC is indeed worth it, since its clearly up in the air at this point. Also saying "your tiny sample of anecdotal evidence is running contrary to theory" means nothing, since this dual FC business started being trendy when very high dps parses appeared on the top raid dps thread.
Up until then the accepted theory was in fact FC/CG is best. So there is no solid theory whatsoever behind dual FC, at least that I am aware of.

Anyway I see this discussion I was trying to start isnt going anywhere, so I´m going to copy Shadowstar´s method right now with around one hour for each combination, that seems to be a solid method.

The only evidence right now for FC/FC is experimental, in that all the top parses in every time bracket in the highest DPS thread have used it. While this is strong evidence for FC/FC, it is not conclusive. However, there is no real comparable evidence for FC/CG, nor was there ever if my memory serves me correctly. People initially 'assumed' that FC/CG was better just because that was what seemed the most intuitive; there was no real mathematical or experimental evidence.

The "theory" behind dual FC is quite sound: with double FC you can get occasionally have twice the unusually good RNG-fortune of high proc uptime -- which is essentially the mechanism at play with some kinds of "very high dps parses".



Let's assume that different DK spec/rotations are, in fact, RNG slot machines:

(A) If your goal is to get your name on the highest-jackpot-ever top-score list, you're naturally going to want to play on the slot machines that have the highest potential payout, even if the chance of payout is much less likely than other slot machines.

(B) If your goal is to identify the slot machine which, on average, yields the most consistently impressive payout (even if its unlikely to ever produce the world-record type payouts that (A) is capable of), this kind of "theory" is worthless.


This isn't to say that FC/FC doesn't provide the best result, but the "theory" that "well, because the top parses used FC/FC, FC/FC must be the best option" is entirely invalid. You can't deny that, for every geared and skilled FC/FC DW'er with an impressive parse posted here or on WMO leaderboards, there might be 99 geared and skilled FC/FC DW'ers with an unlucky (read: normalized) and unimpressive parse that we never hear about.

WTB: Actual theory.

So would you math-savvy folks say that two one hour runs with a ppm-determining addon, one for FC/FC and another for FC/CG is helpful? Im in the middle of my first one atm. Using two 1.6 speed weapons.

Having completed 2 runs of dummy bashing, 40 mins each, with two 1.6 weapons here are the PPM results using the proculas addon:

FC/RZ: 1.17 PPM, or 47 unholy strength procs over 40 minutes.

FC/FC: 2.22 PPM, or 91 procs over the same period of time. (on a side note, Killing Machine had a measly 3.94 PPM on this last test)

So my conclusion is PPM is around double with dual FC, so uptime is necessarily higher. Dont ask me what this means in comparison with cinderglacier, or even razorice, that is beyond my abiltiy. Also maybe someone finds this information useful, perhaps for spreadsheets?

What this class could really use however, is something like Yo´s simulator for enhancement shamans, that was just awesome.

I have a two questions and I wasn't sure where to ask them, and I can't find any post relating to them, first of all does Frost Aura stack with MotW? and second, in regards to CF & EP, do they not stack still or was them stacking a bug that was fixed to begin with?

p.s. - I apologize if this is the wrong thread to ask such questions.

Gear choice question real quick.

I have [Blue Aspect Helm] and [Obsidian Greathelm] sitting in my bank waiting to get used for when I get LL/HS to replace the Split Greathammer and then slap on [Girdle of Chivalry] to help me hit my cap. I can't decide between which helm. It's expertise vs. haste and more crit, but I feel that the Obsidian would be better also because of Glyph of the Ghoul and FC procs. I'm leaning towards the Obsidian because it seems like an obvious choice but I want to make sure that it is not the wrong way to go and get some feedback from other DW DK's.

[Obsidian Greathelm] is essentially BiS for any plate DPS class, now matter what the spec. Put it on RIGHT NOW.

I would like to know if anyone has tried a DW build that goes into the blood tree instead of the unholy tree? Just curious how the dps and raid benefits would be.

Blood tree is based on physical strikes. 1 handers do much less damage with instant strikes, being faster and with much lower damage. There's no real reason Blood would favor DW unless they modify Strikes/Oblit to hit with both hands, which I don't think is ever likely to happen.