I have [Blue Aspect Helm] and [Obsidian Greathelm] sitting in my bank waiting to get used for when I get LL/HS to replace the Split Greathammer and then slap on [Girdle of Chivalry] to help me hit my cap. I can't decide between which helm. It's expertise vs. haste and more crit, but I feel that the Obsidian would be better also because of Glyph of the Ghoul and FC procs. I'm leaning towards the Obsidian because it seems like an obvious choice but I want to make sure that it is not the wrong way to go and get some feedback from other DW DK's.
I tried a Blood/Unholy DW spec, with 8 in frost. It's dps was decent and had the most basic rotation imagineable.
IT, PS, BB, DC Repeat
It's not TO bad, and with the right glyphs ect. Heck, I may not be 100% on this, but i think Blood Caked Blades even double dips on Bloody Vengeance and Hysteria. Plus you didn't need any death runes. You can play around with the frost points, and get desecration since you're plague striking often, and i think necrosis and blood caked double dip that to. Just get the expertise and spell hit caps, grab a slow MH and any speed OH, and go 31/8/32 or 31/5/35 (I wanna say the latter would be better).
I havn't tried it in a LONG time, and my gears improved greatly since then.
Question, is necrosis using your MH only?
way way way back (in beta) I tried something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and it was quite good, and extremely fun. This was of course when a) black ice effected shadow damage as well, and more importantly b) bloody vengeance was an additional 15% modifier to all damage, not just physical. Without those the spec completely falls down. Now, any DW spec going past at absolute most 15 points is probably going to be pretty mediocre. Its a fun idea but the blood tree is just stellar opposite of what makes DW builds work.
I haven't used WMO for such things in the past so pardon me if my understanding of the recording method is wrong but does it take into account that fact that double FCs stack when computing active time? Say you have one instance of the buff active with 5 seconds remaining when you get a second application of it, would WMO record that as 15 seconds of uptime for each buff (for a total of 30 seconds) or would it count it as 25 seconds of one or more applications active? If it is the later case would the first application be, for lack of a better term, hiding the second one in terms of both uptime and magnitude of effect?
Just some idle speculation on a possible source of error in the measure of the difference in uptime between single and double FC using WMO and similar applications.
I tried a Blood/Unholy DW spec, with 8 in frost. It's dps was decent and had the most basic rotation imagineable.
IT, PS, BB, DC Repeat
It's not TO bad, and with the right glyphs ect. Heck, I may not be 100% on this, but i think Blood Caked Blades even double dips on Bloody Vengeance and Hysteria. Plus you didn't need any death runes. You can play around with the frost points, and get desecration since you're plague striking often, and i think necrosis and blood caked double dip that to. Just get the expertise and spell hit caps, grab a slow MH and any speed OH, and go 31/8/32 or 31/5/35 (I wanna say the latter would be better).
I havn't tried it in a LONG time, and my gears improved greatly since then.
Question, is necrosis using your MH only?
I still think we need some parses to see if this build is even viable. Could you also provide a link to the spec?
And no, Necrosis goes off of which weapon made the hit.
Edit: This rotation, event though it may be simple, is an 8 piece rotation which I doubt you are doing in 10 seconds. About how long does each rotation take?
Edit 2: I took a look at a possible build you'd be looking at and using BS instead of BB would be a definite increase in dps but I see very little overall viability For this spec.
I still think we need some parses to see if this build is even viable. Could you also provide a link to the spec?
And no, Necrosis goes off of which weapon made the hit.
Edit: This rotation, event though it may be simple, is an 8 piece rotation which I doubt you are doing in 10 seconds. About how long does each rotation take?
Edit 2: I took a look at a possible build you'd be looking at and using BS instead of BB would be a definite increase in dps but I see very little overall viability For this spec.
Oops, it is blood strike, not blood boil that would be used. The rotation uses unholy presence, easily letting you fit it into the 10 seconds. Here's an example of the build with desecration: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=120314060500
I currently don't have expertise cap to try it out but I'm working on it.
You definately wanna uses your fastest off hand due to normalization of BCB.
the only problem I find with most blood builds, is the fact it has a lot of filler points that arent big dps boosts. like rune tap, or vendetta/mark of blood. they are great for healing instances and what not, but they don't do much help when it comes to dps. (and yes keeping your dps healed is a dps increase in a way) but I'm talking about real physical dps help.
I myself work with a fast/fast build so I dont bother much with blood strike, but rather blood boil with the outbreak talent. Helps me get 1200-1500 crits.
Also I noticed you got no talents that give you death runes, how does that play out? is it hardly noticable?
I can't figure out what one is your primary attack? for a standard dw, we all know that howling blast w/ impurity is the big damage dealer.
but witha blood spec, impurity does almost no good. especially if your icey touch has none of the frost talents in it, besides a 30% increase.
they really need to shuffle blood around or adjust those talents so they are more dps talents instead of hp regen. even if they made vendetta a talent similar to the enchant of Life stealer. only with ranks, higher rank, more damage it takes from chance of hit. But even then, it would be a matter of time when people would argue that DW benefits from it far more than 2h.
Oops, it is blood strike, not blood boil that would be used. The rotation uses unholy presence, easily letting you fit it into the 10 seconds. Here's an example of the build with desecration: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=120314060500
The problem that I see with this build is it seems to rely on more attacks that require higher weapon damages. You go for Impurity and Virulence but without other talents to boost Icy Touch's damage (and Death Coil possibly) they give little bonus. This build would be much better suited for 2h since you'd gain more damage with BS and PS. Also Hysteria and Bloody Vengeance don't really complement Impurity and Virulence. They are, in my opinion, somewhat complete opposites on the spectrum. You try to buff skills that are gimped by going DW and in the process, gimp the skills that are essential for DW. The point of DW is to use skills that are independent of weapon damage yet you are giving the buffs to BS and PS which are what DW builds usually try to stay away from (from my understanding, PS is one that can't be avoided). DW usually relies on more of a Spell oriented rotation (until Blizz adds a Stormstrike-like attack for DKs if they do). You also lose quite a bit of damage with Unholy Presence. This is my 2 cents though. Until I see a parse that proves me wrong, I am tempted to say that this build won't really work.
Cryptus: His primary attack seems to be BS with how much he buffs it with a possible Second of PS or IT. He also does not need the use of Death Runes since his rotation uses all runes and does not fluctuate.
IT (BBxFUU) > PS (BBxFxU) > BS (xBxFxU) > DC
IT (xBxxxU) > PS (xBxxxx) > BS (xxxxxx) > DC
All runes are used up without the need for Death Runes in this rotation.
I keep reading that it is best to use a fast/fast is this true? currently i am The World of Warcraft Armory I am wondering if I am using the wrong weapons?
the only problem I find with most blood builds, is the fact it has a lot of filler points that arent big dps boosts. like rune tap, or vendetta/mark of blood. they are great for healing instances and what not, but they don't do much help when it comes to dps. (and yes keeping your dps healed is a dps increase in a way) but I'm talking about real physical dps help.
I myself work with a fast/fast build so I dont bother much with blood strike, but rather blood boil with the outbreak talent. Helps me get 1200-1500 crits.
Also I noticed you got no talents that give you death runes, how does that play out? is it hardly noticable?
I can't figure out what one is your primary attack? for a standard dw, we all know that howling blast w/ impurity is the big damage dealer.
but witha blood spec, impurity does almost no good. especially if your icey touch has none of the frost talents in it, besides a 30% increase.
they really need to shuffle blood around or adjust those talents so they are more dps talents instead of hp regen. even if they made vendetta a talent similar to the enchant of Life stealer. only with ranks, higher rank, more damage it takes from chance of hit. But even then, it would be a matter of time when people would argue that DW benefits from it far more than 2h.
There is no primary attack, the idea is you're putting talents/investment in ALL the attacks you're pretty much FORCED to use by bliz. Plague strike turns out 52% and crits harder, Blood Strike turns out 78%+1100 (3 diseases at (191*1.6)*1.2). Deathcoil, Icy Touch, and diseases use impurity.
Lemme break it down. Why go dual wield? Dual wield scales better with white damage than 2H. If dual wield didn't scale better, you'd simply be using a 2H with the exact same spec. The whole point of a dual wield spec using blood talents is to take that cardial reason, physical scaling, and amplify it. Hysteria and Bloody vengence giving beneit to that scaling is the point. Unlike other builds, this spec emphasizes your auto-hits and how much you can get out of them, as apposed to going nuts into a single special attack like howling blast.
I'm not saying this spec is superior, I'm saying it's decent, and worth looking into. I'll probobly be posting actual parses sometime after I hit expertise cap. Naxx hasn't been to kind ot me lately on the drops though, so it's a week by week thing.
Lemme break it down. Why go dual wield? Dual wield scales better with white damage than 2H. If dual wield didn't scale better, you'd simply be using a 2H with the exact same spec. The whole point of a dual wield spec using blood talents is to take that cardial reason, physical scaling, and amplify it. Hysteria and Bloody vengence giving beneit to that scaling is the point. Unlike other builds, this spec emphasizes your auto-hits and how much you can get out of them, as apposed to going nuts into a single special attack like howling blast.
Why go dual wield? Because you're focusing on casting damage, and not physical strikes. At the point where your important damage is comprised of entirely spellcasts and white damage, then dual wield's superior white damage pulls you ahead of a 2H.
Dropping the focus from spellcasting to physical strikes removes the advantage that DW has. If you're deep enough to pick up Hysteria, you're dropping your spellcasting damage via HB/IT immensely. 2H will have better Strikes, 31/39 has better Icy touches, plus actually uses a FU rune. 1 Howling Blast > PS + IT.
The minor increase in white damage is nowhere near worth the loss in spelldamage. Alternately, the minor increase in white damage isn't worth just using 2H Blood and hitting a ton harder with better strikes.
The fact that your rotation consists of the baseline weakest uses of each rune should tip you off that this build is crap. The only one of those abilities that *is* useful to build around is IT, and you've moved away from making IT useful for the sake of physical strikes.
Dual wield builds are not better because of white damage. Dual wield builds are focused on spellcasting, and the fact that DW has better white damage is just the reason the builds aren't 2H Caster builds. White damage is the icing on the cake of spell damage, not the other way around. As soon as you move away from casting, 2 Handers are better, period.
the current dilemma i am having is which would be better, FotFF or Bandit's Insignia to replace my mirror of truth. according the spreadsheet here, when i enter the values into loot rank it has bandit's above even the greatness card (which boggles my mind to no end).
quick reference stats:
1293 STR
3407 AP
Silent Crusader/Hailstorm/Last Laugh current weapons (interchange whether doing side pvp or respec to 44/27)
Looking at the unholy tree gargoyle just seems too deep in the tree to make it worth it for dual wield. However it's still worth it to grab your ghoul talent. Ghoul has remained 12% of my damage statically.
As far as I can tell, from the first round of class changes, DW looks strictly inferior to Unholy.
RIP?
I can't see any potential for a DW build with the IT talents so spread apart, and no HB available. Hopefully there is more to come, but unholy looks insanely good at the moment.
They really did a good job spreading out the talents just so that we can't get everything. The HB move is a bit of a kick to the shins. even 0/20/51 builds won't have Crypt Fever any more. I'm really not digging the Necrosis and BCB changes though. Thats like saying "no, you can't have that minuscule advantage over 2h"
I think sticking with a 0/32/39 variant like a 0/30/41 would be a decent option even without HB. We gain the shadow damage on Black Ice, and Unholy Blight. I haven't seen it mentioned in the notes, but MMO-Champion has a new Ghoul cooldown on their talent calculator where shadow of death was, with the perma-ghoul aspect folded into master of ghouls (+25% haste and heal for 30% over duration. 15s duration, 30s cd). It costs 1U rune, so it could act as a good use for a spare U rune if your just using IT where HB used to be, every 3 rotations anyways...
Failing that, 0/20/51 seems a lot more attractive these days. Then again so do 2h builds.
I guess the question then is: "Why DW for this spec?"
I think 0/20/51 may work, but it surely not optimal now.
You are right in that...though, with the changes as they stand, going deep into a tree is really the only option from a synergy standpoint. It seems as though blizzard is intending for all DKs to go deep into specs and shy away from hybrids.
Of course this all remains to be determined however:
I wonder if something like this might have some worth. Early early stages but fun to speculate none-the-less!
eh on second thought if HB's dmg is reduced like they say then we should put points in annihilation and use Oblit instead (maybe)...but then we may as well go 2h....damn it!
02/21/09, 12:12 AM
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