First, this thread is about DW, not which spec is the best. If DW is not viable, it needs to be pointed out so people can stay away from this spec.
Second, the new gear scaling is not an excuse. What matters the most is when everyone is still in naxx gears and is trying to push the content, not when everything is on farm for over 2/3 months. If Blizzard balances the game around endgame gears, it's a huge failure.
The math on BCB has been done a few times already in this thread I'm pretty sure, it's based on weapon damage and has a 3 sec internal. Seems pretty obvious to me.
Doesn't BCB still have only a 30% chance to proc? What you are saying sounds like you assume the two handed weapon will proc BCB every swing once the internal cooldown is up. In reality a dualwielding DK will have a much quicker proc after the 3 sec ICD is down.
This is similar to trinkets that have a 45 sec ICD, but we only see one proc per 50s or so on average. No?
The below is NOT directed at Shankublud:
I think we are crying just a bit too early here, lets let the dust settle and see what we have. I don't think we require 200 posts whining about these changes.
I think we are crying just a bit too early here, lets let the dust settle and see what we have. I don't think we require 200 posts whining about these changes.
Yes, indeed. Blizz isn't even finished with the class changes. They just wanted Ulduar to get tested. There is a lot more coming.
Doesn't BCB still have only a 30% chance to proc? What you are saying sounds like you assume the two handed weapon will proc BCB every swing once the internal cooldown is up. In reality a dualwielding DK will have a much quicker proc after the 3 sec ICD is down.
This is similar to trinkets that have a 45 sec ICD, but we only see one proc per 50s or so on average. No?
The below is NOT directed at Shankublud:
I think we are crying just a bit too early here, lets let the dust settle and see what we have. I don't think we require 200 posts whining about these changes.
Highly simplified BCB calculation:
Assume 1hx2 vs 2h.
1h average hits 200(typical fast weapon), 2h average hits 700(typical 2h weapon) (AP will scale similarity with these numbers, so for simplicity's sack, I will just use the base weapon damage).
For 1hx2 Over 1 min(60 seconds), there will be 20 procs (3 seconds internal cooldown, assume 2 weapons both at 1.3 atk spd, this will yield close to 100% proc rate).
Assume for 1hx2, 10 procs on MH, 10 procs on OH, so over 1 min, the damage done by BCB = 200*BCB%*10+200*0.7(OH damage penalty)*BCB%*10 = (200+200*0.7)*BCB%*10.
Assume for 2h, 3.3 swings yield 1 BCB(30% proc rate), also assume atkspd is at 3 seconds, so over 1 min, there will be about 6 procs, the damage done by BCB = 700*BCB%*6.
To compare the two, divide them.
(200+200*0.7)*BCB%*10 divide 700*BCB%*6 = 0.8, which is <1.
That basically means BCB favors 2h more.
For completeness' sake, here's a calculation for 2 slow 1h.
Slow 1h hits for 350, and has atk spd of 2.2 seconds.
This means slow will give BCB about every 5 seconds or so (12 procs every min).
Again assume among 12 procs, 6 on main hand and 6 on offhand.
The damage done by BCB = (350+350*7)*BCB%*6.
Again divide the two:
(350+350*0.7)*BCB%*6 divide 700*BCB%*6 = 0.85, which is still <1.
In conclusion, BCB is inferior for DW if the ICD gets implemented.
One thought about the new BCB is that you need an effective swing time of >= 3.0 seconds to avoid being hit by the cooldown. If you have a 20% melee haste buff from improved icy talons or talented windfury, that means you need a base weapon speed of at least 3.75 to not notice the cooldown, assuming my math is right (3.75 * 0.8 = 3.0). If you have even 3% haste from haste rating + windfury, a 3.8 speed weapon will be swinging in less than three seconds, and lootrank.com was only able to find one weapon slower than that, a 4.0 speed level 75 white vendor item.
I'm not trying to say that the change to BCB isn't aimed at nerfing DW -- it seems pretty clear that it is. I'm arguing that if you do your analysis with the assumption that a two-hander won't be penalized by the cooldown, you're probably skewing your results in favor of the two-hander.
One thought about the new BCB is that you need an effective swing time of >= 3.0 seconds to avoid being hit by the cooldown. If you have a 20% melee haste buff from improved icy talons or talented windfury, that means you need a base weapon speed of at least 3.75 to not notice the cooldown, assuming my math is right (3.75 * 0.8 = 3.0). If you have even 3% haste from haste rating + windfury, a 3.8 speed weapon will be swinging in less than three seconds, and lootrank.com was only able to find one weapon slower than that, a 4.0 speed level 75 white vendor item.
I'm not trying to say that the change to BCB isn't aimed at nerfing DW -- it seems pretty clear that it is. I'm arguing that if you do your analysis with the assumption that a two-hander won't be penalized by the cooldown, you're probably skewing your results in favor of the two-hander.
20% melee haste affects swing time like this: 3.75 / 1.2 = 3.125
If you have 20% melee haste and (i.e.) moonkin aura, then it would be 3.75 / (1.2 * 1.03) = 3.03
one more thing to add before we move on to looking at new DW builds:
Taken from GC tonight:
DKs are a new class without four years of theorycrafting history. Some of the current builds being used were not the ones being used originally -- they developed over time as players experimented with mixes of specs and gear. As good as the community is at theorycrafting -- and it is very, very good -- not many people can look at a list of changes in a vacuum and predict what builds players will be using a couple of months from now, especially for a new class like this.
We think there will be other DW builds that develop. Some we have in mind and some no doubt the community will surprise us with. But we think the pendulum had swung too heavily away from 2H for the class. To be sure there were some 2H builds whose damage was also too high, and we have nerfed those as well.
Here we go. Don't jump ship because you see the nerf bat swinging. Discuss, test, and go from there.
Yes, indeed. Blizz isn't even finished with the class changes. They just wanted Ulduar to get tested. There is a lot more coming.
This.
We are on the first day of a new patch, on a test realm no less. GC has stated before they want DW on par with 2h, and the blues post every single hour that the changes are by NO means finished. It's far too early to go on and on about DW being dead.
What they're most likely doing is nerfing it (to the ground) then they'll gradually build it back up. I'm doing my part on the PTR right now testing and dropping comments.
You cannot declare anything "dead" until it goes on Live, plain and simple. Yes, with this patch the way it is now, it's highly gimped, but the patch just will not stay this way. It's meant to be a living, changing thing. It's like a beta, and Blizz has said that.
20% melee haste affects swing time like this: 3.75 / 1.2 = 3.125
If you have 20% melee haste and (i.e.) moonkin aura, then it would be 3.75 / (1.2 * 1.03) = 3.03
etc
Ah, thanks for the correction. So, the basic idea is still valid, just not quite as strong. In some ways, the situation seems worse with the correct math, because some of the very slowest (3.8 speed) weapons still have a chance of staying above the 3s limit in raids.
I hated the fixed cooldown part of enhancement shaman, and this is looking pretty darn similar.
I have done a whole bunch of messing around on the PTR, here are my findings. For comparison's sake I also ran a few 2h tests. In these tests I did nothing but swap weapons.
All of the below was performed with IT/PS/Ghoul glyphs, sigil of Frozen Conscience
DW = Silent Crusader (FC) / Widow's Fury (RI)
2h = Wraith Spear (2h)
Ebon Hold Highlord Nemesis Trainer (0% health)
5:00 tests
For comparison:
0/32/39 prepatch - 3074 (BP)
IT>PS>HB>BS>BS>DC>DC
IT>PS>HB>IT>IT>DC>DC
*GF = Ghoul's Frenzy. I stopped speccing it in future tests as the DPS gain seemed incredibly minuscule.
Take these numbers to mean what you will. We all know dummy tests are only so accurate. I also suck at doing rotations I'm not familiar with. This is of course all very subject to change, seeing as we are early in development still, don't forget.
I really want to get my hands on FS+DC glyphs. I'm also interested to do some actual raids, if for no other reason than it doesn't seem possible to do an even remotely accurate test using BB now that it AoEs without needing to disease first.
I'm also interested to do some actual raids, if for no other reason than it doesn't seem possible to do an even remotely accurate test using BB now that it AoEs without needing to disease first.
Recount gives you breakdowns for damage done to whom. Using that information, you can recalculate your DPS around the bloodboil change. It may not include pet damage in that breakdown, so be sure to re-add that before you recalculate (from the summaries page).
Just saw your post and thought I'd add what I tested.
I was testing this spec: 0/15/56
MH: Hatestrike - FC OH: Grasscutter - Cinderglacier
(5 minute test) 3213DPS on Recount.
0% health Training Dummy.
Rotation:
PS -> IT -> SS -> BB -> BB -> UB -> RP dump
PS -> IT -> SS -> SS -> RP dump
So seeing the test 2 posts above me, I'd be interested to see what you get with this spec. I plan on testing them all as well, but just couldn't fight the random errors anymore tonight.
We are on the first day of a new patch, on a test realm no less. GC has stated before they want DW on par with 2h, and the blues post every single hour that the changes are by NO means finished. It's far too early to go on and on about DW being dead.
What they're most likely doing is nerfing it (to the ground) then they'll gradually build it back up. I'm doing my part on the PTR right now testing and dropping comments.
You cannot declare anything "dead" until it goes on Live, plain and simple. Yes, with this patch the way it is now, it's highly gimped, but the patch just will not stay this way. It's meant to be a living, changing thing. It's like a beta, and Blizz has said that.
What you do not realize is that if we do not declare the current PTR DW build is dead, they will leave it as is. That's why people need to speak up, do theorycraft and tests. And that's what the so called "QQ" are for.
blood presence, blood boil v. blood strike needs to be tested in raid.
pop gargoyle at 130 RP (after first full rotation with no UB) and you can pretty much use the normal rotation from there (keep up UB at priority). I use my trinket [Mark of Norgannon] (I have low expertise) after gargoyle is popped and everytime it is up subsequently.
5 minute dummy tests with 0 HP:
With gargoyle: avg 3300 dps
Without gargoyle: avg 3100 dps
glyphs: ghoul, icy touch, 3rd TBD (will be PS when I can get another char copied to the PTR), using [Sigil of Arthritic Binding]
I think that Blizz is trying to get the DW spec out of the mainstream, by cutting down the insane high dps we do. to a more reasonable level with the 2 handers, but to a level so that the ones who just love to play DW and know how to, still be noticed in game. (knowing blizz this will take some time ). I dont think that its Blizz intention to kill a spec, we have to wait and see abit further on the line of changes that be comming before the patch comes out when more stats from testing are known.
And isnt this why we are here... to crack our brains to get this patch working for us!! instead of shooting it down after one ptr-day
What you do not realize is that if we do not declare the current PTR DW build is dead, they will leave it as is. That's why people need to speak up, do theorycraft and tests. And that's what the so called "QQ" are for.
I understand. That's what I meant when I said I was testing and dropping comments, but I should have been clearer, thanks.
For those unaware, Ghostcrawler has replied two more times on the issue.
Please tell me if someone gets something different from the discussion, but what I am now reading from his latest replies is that even with these drastic nerfs he still feels there will be a build(s) that will contend with 2h. I guess it's up to us to find it.
Or, maybe they intend to buff it back marginally as they go along in the testing process, and just don't want to tell us about it, so they can do it their way.
Also, we still have some testing yet to do in a real raid situation to see if the situation is really as bad in practice as it is on paper. We may get surprised.
Hey guys so i have been a reader of these forums for a while but have never posted however with all the new changes to DW a build i currently play on my dathknight i thought i would throw out a new build idea and see what u think
( dont bit my head off if its crap lol )
Basically alomst the same as the 0/32/39 build ppl use already but with the new talents and SS replacing the HB in the rotations oh and i was thinking of using unholy pressence instead of blood for the faster rune cds for a higher IT spam maybe. anyway was wondering if any on the ptr had tryed this yet
Hey guys so i have been a reader of these forums for a while but have never posted however with all the new changes to DW a build i currently play on my dathknight i thought i would throw out a new build idea and see what u think
( dont bit my head off if its crap lol )
Basically alomst the same as the 0/32/39 build ppl use already but with the new talents and SS replacing the HB in the rotations oh and i was thinking of using unholy pressence instead of blood for the faster rune cds for a higher IT spam maybe. anyway was wondering if any on the ptr had tryed this yet
I've been looking at something similar. However, I was looking at dropping BCB in favor of full desecration and losing 1 point off KM for full NotD. 29/42
My only problem right now is deciding on a third rune: PS, Ghoul, ?. Just running through the rotation, glyph of icy touch is only going to cause you to cap runic power. You won't have the GCDs for enough DCs to burn it. The only options I can see are D&D for trash and possibly BS to increase uptime on fights where you might lose a charge occationally. Perhaps the new unholy blight glyph?
PS>IT>SS>BS>BS (or BB>BB)>DC (Or UB when it's down)
PS>IT>PS>IT>IT>IT>DC
I don't see SS doing more damage than PS>IT for the two runes but you need a two rune ability somewhere in the rotation to leave time to dump RP.
i looked at 0/51/20 as well but tbh with the nerf to HB damage its no longer a talent worthy of 51 points imo it might have been before the nerf but even still without ghouls with Notd any dw specc imo isnt viable as alot of bosses have a passive aoe or aoe within there encounters these days.
If however bliz would wake up and smell the coffee and realise that giving our pets this ability without having to tallent it then it would make alot more speccs alot more viable.
Curious to know if ppl wil now use Unholy presence over blood with the improves rune cds now tho?
Oh on a side not Ghoul frenzy looks very poor tbh costing a rune nvm anything else is just fail.
02/24/09, 10:01 PM
). I dont think that its Blizz intention to kill a spec, we have to wait and see abit further on the line of changes that be comming before the patch comes out when more stats from testing are known.
)
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