Elitist Jerks Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required)

 11/25/08, 4:29 PM #2 tedv Observation: I am awesome     Hope Goblin Priest   Mal'Ganis Mathematically I'm certain that Blood Strike should be a higher priority than Frost Strike unless you're Runic Power capped. That's because deferring a Frost Strike won't cause a DPS loss-- you aren't losing runic power. But deferring a blood strike does, as all future activations of that blood rune will now refresh later. This effectively costs you fractions of future blood strikes. For example, suppose you have 80 runic power and 2 blood runes active. Option A: 2x Frost Strike then 2x Blood Strike Blood runes refresh in 10 and 11.5 seconds. Option B: 2x Frost Strike then 2x Blood Strike Blood runes refresh in 13 and 14.5 seconds. Note that both options deal the exact same damage in the short term, but each pair of your blood strikes for the rest of the fight will be .3 seconds later. This is equivalent to losing the damage from 0.6 blood strikes, or 60% of one blood strike. Don't do that. Use your runes when they are active and only rune power dump if you would otherwise cap your runic power.
 11/25/08, 4:38 PM #3 Hraka Von Kaiser   Kharon Orc Death Knight   Azgalor A few other questions I'd like to add to the pot: Are 3 points actually needed in Runic Power Mastery? Our main RP dump being 40rp would we actually need a situation where we can spam it 3 times in a row and still end up with 10rp at the end? For that matter would FSing 3 times in a row ever really be warranted and if not why any points in RPM? With a lot of global cooldowns being crammed into such a short time, if Rime procs is it actually beneficial to use a gcd on it? Each time its cast it sets back the next rotation by about 1 second, if you're swimming in RP already and FSing as much as possible to dump the RP are there times when you will have too many FSs in your rotation that adding a HB into the rotation would cause diseases to lapse? Would this be a noticeable dps loss? What strike would we drop for the HB?
 11/25/08, 4:47 PM #4 Feorthas King Hippo   Outofsync Blood Elf Death Knight   Blackrock Well, freezing fog / rime procs last 15 seconds so there's ample time to wait until you're at the RP dump phase of your rotation before using it (AoE situations nonwithstanding). Even better, wait until Deathchill is back up before using it if that's an option (again, during AoE) and use the time beforehand to set up a 'perfect' HB (perfect being FF on every mob, deathchill up, any controlable AP buffs up). Clarification: Frost tends to use a large number of double rune abilities so there tend to be a number of points in a rotation where you can dump either RP or procs like rime.
11/25/08, 4:58 PM   #5
Nicolai
Von Kaiser

Aegwynn
 Originally Posted by tedv Mathematically I'm certain that Blood Strike should be a higher priority than Frost Strike unless you're Runic Power capped. That's because deferring a Frost Strike won't cause a DPS loss-- you aren't losing runic power. But deferring a blood strike does, as all future activations of that blood rune will now refresh later. This effectively costs you fractions of future blood strikes. For example, suppose you have 80 runic power and 2 blood runes active. Option A: 2x Frost Strike then 2x Blood Strike Blood runes refresh in 10 and 11.5 seconds. Option B: 2x Frost Strike then 2x Blood Strike Blood runes refresh in 13 and 14.5 seconds. Note that both options deal the exact same damage in the short term, but each pair of your blood strikes for the rest of the fight will be .3 seconds later. This is equivalent to losing the damage from 0.6 blood strikes, or 60% of one blood strike. Don't do that. Use your runes when they are active and only rune power dump if you would otherwise cap your runic power.
I've updated the DPS priority list in the OP to reflect this (which is a change from the list in the DPS compendium, but not the standard rotation).

My two biggest questions at the moment have to be about the effectiveness of Cinderglacier and Razorice and whether we should let diseases tick completely before refreshing. If we should let diseases tick all the way, then I can see there being more time for 3 FSs or 2 FSs and a HB during the rune dump portion of the rotation.

 11/25/08, 6:21 PM #6 Septus Piston Honda   Lichfoe Blood Elf Death Knight   Ravenholdt I'm curious about the decision not to take epidemic. Obviously it gets you more blood talents like dark conviction but epidemic gets you one more obliterate per two rotations, and obliterate seems particularly important to this spec, more so than scourge strike or maybe heart strike. Obviously with how good icy touch becomes, that half of the disease re-application isn't so distasteful anymore, but plaguestrike still seems like you'd really want to avoid it.
11/25/08, 7:27 PM   #7
Nicolai
Von Kaiser

Aegwynn
 Originally Posted by Septus I'm curious about the decision not to take epidemic. Obviously it gets you more blood talents like dark conviction but epidemic gets you one more obliterate per two rotations, and obliterate seems particularly important to this spec, more so than scourge strike or maybe heart strike. Obviously with how good icy touch becomes, that half of the disease re-application isn't so distasteful anymore, but plaguestrike still seems like you'd really want to avoid it.
I think it comes down to Icy Touch being pretty damn good all on it's own. It also does double damage when it crits. IT+PS, even at the cost of two GCDs, seems to be more DPS than one extra OB is. I could be wrong there though.

 11/25/08, 7:33 PM #8 kurokaze Piston Honda     Minikali Goblin Warrior   Daggerspine Has anyone else been playing around with a build that takes Abomination's Might? I've been having great results with variations of it. It's obviously not the right choice if enhancement shamans are often around, but that's not the case for me. The personal DPS seems comparable and the raid contribution and tanking ability skyrocket (the latter depending on specific choices, but to me Blade Barrier vs. random filler or Toughness vs. Killing Machine/RPM are no-brainers). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is my current build but I'm playing around with Blood of the North vs. UA/Icy Reach/Merciless Combat and Butchery vs. Bloody Strikes. It's definitely significantly tankier than it has to be, but thats how I like to play it. Depending on enhancement shamans I might even keep this build once I'm geared enough to tank.
11/25/08, 7:43 PM   #9
Feorthas
King Hippo

Blood Elf Death Knight

Blackrock
 Originally Posted by Nicolai I think it comes down to Icy Touch being pretty damn good all on it's own. It also does double damage when it crits. IT+PS, even at the cost of two GCDs, seems to be more DPS than one extra OB is. I could be wrong there though.
Icy Touch is quite good when your talent spec supports it--I've seen >2k crits with after swapping to full Black Ice--but Plague Strike is... not as good and maybe worth a 400 crit at my current gear level. Now, with that said, I've definitely recorded multiple 4k+ Obliterate crits (same instance group as the previous numbers) and I'm probably wearing 'average' gear for a 73 so YMMV but probably not enough for IT/PS to outweigh OB.

Not to mention, Icy Touch is also a spell and therefore subject so spell hit/miss/resist mechanics, which are inherently worse than a melee attack's...

11/25/08, 8:46 PM   #10
Dnarnya
Glass Joe

Burning Legion
I don't think its just a matter or OB > PT/IT or IT/PT > OB. IT does nice damage when talented. IT can also cause Rime to proc. That combined with the "wasted" 5 talent points you have to spend on Morbidity and Vicious Strikes makes Epidemic a less attractive choice for frost DPS.

IT/PT + Blood DPS talents > OB + Epidemic is what I think it comes down to.

 DPS Priority: 1) Don't die. 2) 100% disease uptime 3) Highest damage rune attack (Obliterate) 4) Blood Strike to convert blood runes to death runes 5) Frost Strike! Rotation: PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> FS
Something that has been confusing me since the DPS Compendium thread. According to the DPS priority shouldn't the rotation be something more like:

PS -> IT -> OB -> BS -> BS -> FS
PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> FS

Last edited by Dnarnya : 11/25/08 at 8:52 PM.

11/26/08, 1:26 AM   #11
Hraka
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

Azgalor
 Originally Posted by Feorthas Well, freezing fog / rime procs last 15 seconds so there's ample time to wait until you're at the RP dump phase of your rotation before using it (AoE situations nonwithstanding). Even better, wait until Deathchill is back up before using it if that's an option (again, during AoE) and use the time beforehand to set up a 'perfect' HB (perfect being FF on every mob, deathchill up, any controlable AP buffs up). Clarification: Frost tends to use a large number of double rune abilities so there tend to be a number of points in a rotation where you can dump either RP or procs like rime.
With AE situations the cast sequence would already be using a IT, PS, Pest, HB, BB type of rotation anyways so the rime procs would just mean you'd get a "free" OB in there. At this point the question would become is Obliterate a good use of global cooldowns. Or are we simply limited by pestilence cooldown?

Can someone point me to w/e thread involves standard raid boss armor damage reduction is involved at lvl 80 for these sorts of calculations or has that not been done yet with the new LK stuff?

As for the PS then IT or IT then PS debate, from a standpoint of just the diseases you will net a larger dps increase from casting PS before IT due to Black Ice.

Assuming really low stats of 2k AP and 150 dps 3.5 weapon you'll see numbers like (without glacier rot or tundra stalker):
Icy Touch: (227+2000x0.1)(1.3)(1.3)= 721.63 dmg before CoE/EP
Plague Strike: [(150x3.5)+(2000/14)(3.3)](0.3)+113= 411.92 dmg before armor DR

Assuming good stats for in a raid of 4k AP and 200dps 3.5 weapon:
Icy Touch: (227+4000x0.1)(1.3)(1.3)=1059.63 dmg before CoE/EP
Plague Strike: [(200x3.5)+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.3)+113= 605.85 dmg before mobs armor

So for crud stats IT>PS by a factor of 1.75. With good stats IT>PS by a factor of 1.74. Now when you factor in that killing machine might proc right before casting either PS or IT, then IT beats out PS even more. So it seems like at any gear in the foreseeable future it will be better to cast PS before IT when starting off a rotation. This of course isnt a factor if it turns out that we are always going to be refreshing diseases before they expire for max dps.

btw: both of these still apply if you are using Glyph of IT which leads us to even another discussion of: Is it possible to spec/glyph for too much RP generation?

Last edited by Hraka : 11/26/08 at 2:52 AM.

 11/26/08, 2:27 AM #12 Applejuiced Glass Joe   Dissection Orc Death Knight   Chromaggus I'm curious about a Frost / Blood hybrid spec that kurokaze touched on, although I played with it a bit and this one seems to be the most dps oriented I could find Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft although the points in DRM could lead to wasted death runes if such a thing is possible
 11/26/08, 3:38 AM #13 Alvira Don Flamenco   Alvira Human Mage   Dragonblight I am curious about such a hybrid frost/blood build also. I think it would scale better and should actually be higher DPS than a pure frost build. The reasons being that the entire build focuses on upping the damage of its most frequently used strikes - blood strike, frost strike, IT and Obliterates. So, the majority of its strikes are well supported by talents with this build. It neglects plague strike, but since that is the weakest strike for frost anyway, no amount of talents boosting it is going to make any difference. Because it has AP and Str modifiers from the sub in blood tree. Hence, I think it will eventually scale better than a pure frost tree that goes all the way down to hungering cold. Only change I would make is the 3 points in death rune mastery. I would put them elsewhere. Maybe blade barrier so that there is a higher chance of rune strikes from parried attacks. Oh, and one other change that can further boost blood strikes. Shift 3 points from killing machine into 2/2 endless winter and 1 pt into chilblains. This then applies a snared effect to mobs and allows gylph of bloodstrike to do 20% more damage with bloodstrikes. (Only thing is if we are talking about strictly for raiding, then I am not sure if this would work on raid bosses). Because this build would stick to using IT, Obliterates, and blood strikes and frost strikes each 10 second rotation. There is no neccesity to have a two cycle rotation for this build because its blood strikes are well supported by talents and every bit as powerful on their own, same for the obliterates and ITs. Last edited by Alvira : 11/26/08 at 3:50 AM.
 11/26/08, 4:08 AM #14 Hraka Von Kaiser   Kharon Orc Death Knight   Azgalor Concerning BS, OB and FS for comparisons against other moves: Using the two situations I used before along with two diseases on target: Low lvl gear (2k AP, 20crit, 525 avg dmg): BS: {[525+(2000/14)(3.3)](0.5)+191+(95.5x2)}(1.15)= 1012.25+ 0.32(1012.25x1.45)= 1481.93 dmg OB: {525+(2000/14)(3.3)+292+(146x2)}=1580.43+ 0.47(1580.43x1.45)= 2657.49 dmg Glyphed OB: {[525+(2000/14)(3.3)](1.2)+292+146}= 1633.71+ 0.47(1633.71x1.45)= 2747.08 dmg FS: {[525+(2000/14)(3.3)](0.6)+150}(1.1)(1.3)(1.03)= 1069.44+ 0.32(1069.44x1.45)= 1565.66 dmg High lvl gear (4k AP, 33crit, 700 avg dmg): BS: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.5)+191+(95.5x2)}(1.15)= 1378.68+ 0.45(1378.68x1.45)= 2278.27 dmg OB: {700+(4000/14)(3.3)+292+146x2}= 2226.86+ 0.60(2226.86x1.45)= 4164.23 dmg Glyphed OB: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](1.2)+292+146}= 2409.43+ 0.60(2409.43x1.45)= 4505.63 dmg FS: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.6)+150}(1.1)(1.3)= 1624.07+ 0.45(1624.07x1.45)= 2683.78 dmg HB: [270+(4000x0.1)](1.1)(1.3)(2)=1916.2+ 0.33(1916.2x1.45)= 2833.10 dmg All these numbers are before mob armor or EP are factored in. If it came down to it and you had to drop one of these out of your rotations blood strike looks to be the obvious choice. Edit: these were all calculated without Tundra Stalker factored in, so a good comparison of the specs can be had by comparing +8% str and the bonus to blood strikes to +10% on all abilities. Last edited by Hraka : 11/26/08 at 5:14 PM. Reason: Missed Subversion and Guile of Gorefiend
 11/26/08, 8:16 AM #15 Aten Glass Joe   Lusi Human Death Knight   Sylvanas (EU) I'm also in doubt why we should even specc into icy talons and imp. icy talons, my guild always takes a Enhanc. Shaman, always, so i dont see the point on spend 6 points, cause as i understand Haste isn't reallythat good for a death knight anyways. What i really would like to know with the following specc, is how much dps loss would it be if instead of 5/5 Thundra Stalker, i only use 3/5 so i can reach 3/3 in Vot3W, will the extra 4 points of expertise and 6% of str compensate for the loss of 4% damage. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Edit: some typos.

 Elitist Jerks Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required)

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