Frosty DPS Discussion (no magic hat required) - Page 11

Nicolai · 12/04/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Feorthas

Blood tap is required I at up the rotation but the extra death rune is generated each rotation by the single Blood Strike.

Also, the current high-DPS roataion is in fact one with epidemic. This may not last but, as of now, it holds that epidemic is a useful talent for dps and is definitely useful for tanks (less disease re-application allows for more HB spam on AE packs).

I was referring specifically to frost DPS builds here. Epidemic works so well because it combines with Glyph of Scourge Strike in Unholy builds. The application of Icy Touch is actually a good thing for Frost builds, since it applies the haste buff and does significant DPS.

Septus · 12/04/08, 1:51 PM

I'm feeling dense. In this ongoing PS-less rotation, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, FS, you're only generating one new death rune per rune-cycle. Even if BS always uses a blood rune and not a death rune, it only turns itself into a death rune, and you still have one additional plain blood rune coming up. You're continually generating one death rune, but don't you need two, to avoid needing two BSes per rotation?

Nicolai · 12/04/08, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Septus

I'm feeling dense. In this ongoing PS-less rotation, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, FS, you're only generating one new death rune per rune-cycle. Even if BS always uses a blood rune and not a death rune, it only turns itself into a death rune, and you still have one additional plain blood rune coming up. You're continually generating one death rune, but don't you need two, to avoid needing two BSes per rotation?

Let me break it down like this. You start out with a blood tap, so your runes look like:

FFUUDB

You open with an Icy Touch:
XFUUDB

Then OB:
XXXUDB

Then another OB:
XXXXXB

And now a BS to generate a death rune for the next rotation:
XXXXXX

At this point, all your runes are on cooldown. You should have enough runic power for two Frost Strikes. If your Icy Touch procced Rime, use a Howling Blast here as well.

At this point, the rotation restarts. Even though some of your runes are still on cooldown, they basically look like:
FFUUBD

Which is the same as where you started. Repeat ad infinitum, alternating the second OB and the BS to avoid conflicts.

Maahk · 12/04/08, 2:17 PM

You don't need two - only one is needed.

IT uses a frost
BS uses a blood, turning it to death
OB uses the other frost + unholy
OB uses Death (the other Blood from the previous cycle) and the other unholy.

No PS is used, and only one BS is required per rune reset to maintain the rotation.

To set up correctly for the rotation, you either need to use Blood Tap or you need to do a regular IT,PS,BS,BS,OB,IT rotation before it to get the death rune you need to have. If you do the former, the runes will work exactly as described above. If you do the latter, when you start the actual rotation you will have an extra unnecessary death rune, which you'll simply use as Blood for the BS, converting it back into a death rune again and setting up the death rune for the next rotation.

I've been using the IT, BS, OB, OB, FS > IT, OB, BS, OB, FS rotation with success as well. it's working better for me than trying to hold off an FS to fill the gap waiting for a blood rune to come off of cooldown. I topped the damage meter in a melee-only Naxx 10 last night. Still a bit concerned with how frost DKs stack up against other specs in a raid setting. I really WANT frost to work, but if it turns out that something out there works better, I'll have to swap.

Edit: Nikolai beat me to it and did a better job.

Brutorious · 12/04/08, 2:22 PM

Whats going on with your runes in this rotation is you only need the one deathrune, because your still fitting one BS in every rotation.

frost - IT
Unholy/Frost - OB
Unholy/Deathrune - OB
Blood - BS
RP dump

then your next rotation should have the BS in between the 2 obliterates to avoid problems with runes and cooldowns.

The problem I have been having is every first rotation is generating exactly the same RP as the standard rotation. 75 RP, enough for one frost strike. and every so often it happens again.

Edit: lol... nevermind, 2 good posts above mine

Originally Posted by Septus

I'm feeling dense. In this ongoing PS-less rotation, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, FS, you're only generating one new death rune per rune-cycle. Even if BS always uses a blood rune and not a death rune, it only turns itself into a death rune, and you still have one additional plain blood rune coming up. You're continually generating one death rune, but don't you need two, to avoid needing two BSes per rotation?

Feorthas · 12/04/08, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Nicolai

I was referring specifically to frost DPS builds here. Epidemic works so well because it combines with Glyph of Scourge Strike in Unholy builds. The application of Icy Touch is actually a good thing for Frost builds, since it applies the haste buff and does significant DPS.

Yes, but it's a measure of relative goodness that defeats your argument; Icy Touch may average ~880 damage but Oblit would average 2090 in that same case (numbers from a new, unreleased spreadsheet version I'm working on; released version should hold roughly true though), making it more worthwhile than recasting IT, thus making Epidemic's 50% increase in disease ticks extremely worthwhile, in theory. What remains to be seen is if epidemic is more worthwhile than any other talents that can me chosen...

Septus · 12/04/08, 3:02 PM

OK, I understand the rotation now, though I don't see how you'd get 80 runic power after that, I can come up with 75, with the IT glyph, like Brutorious said.

Maahk · 12/04/08, 3:29 PM

You do get 75, at least until you get the 4-piece T7 bonus. So, you have 1 FS the first rotation, then 2 for the next 7 rotations. This doesn't include any gains from any other sources, so in practice you get more FSs.

1: 75 RP after blowing runes, 1 FS = 35 RP at end of cycle
2: 110 RP, 2 FS = 30
3: 105 RP, 2 FS = 25
4: 100 RP, 2 FS = 20
5: 95 RP, 2 FS = 15
6: 90 RP, 2 FS = 10
7: 85 RP, 2 FS = 5
8: 80 RP, 2 FS = 0
9: 75 RP, 1 FS = 30
etc.

halfpint · 12/04/08, 5:32 PM

Furthermore, with butchery you should be able to stretch it out a several more cycles.

4 runic power every 10 second cycle, leaves you 1 rp short, so you're less likely 1 FS cycle.

Feorthas · 12/04/08, 6:22 PM

Ninja updated the spreadsheet before heading home, here's what changed:
-Massive redesign to clean things up a bit
-There's an entry for an enchant... but it's not doing anything yet
-Bladed armor has an entry but does nothing yet
-Removed +Hit double dipping (yeah. Big oops)
-Better KM modeling
-Other minor tweaks things I can't remember

Brutorious · 12/04/08, 6:38 PM

Are there any more WWS's floating around? possibly with the new dps rotation?

I would really like to see more comparisons with frost to the other specs. Its still early but unholy and blood both seem to be outperforming frost from what has been presented so far.

Nicolai · 12/04/08, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Feorthas

Yes, but it's a measure of relative goodness that defeats your argument; Icy Touch may average ~880 damage but Oblit would average 2090 in that same case (numbers from a new, unreleased spreadsheet version I'm working on; released version should hold roughly true though), making it more worthwhile than recasting IT, thus making Epidemic's 50% increase in disease ticks extremely worthwhile, in theory. What remains to be seen is if epidemic is more worthwhile than any other talents that can me chosen...

Well, to get another Obliterate off you'll need an additional death rune, which adds the BS back in.

Also, you also need to add in the DPS from the haste gain for all melee provided by the buff. I'm pretty sure that needs to be reapplied as epidemic doesn't extend that timer (unless it's 20 seconds? which is moot then).

Honestly, I'd be surprised if come 3.1 the didn't change the frost DPS spec to require PS for maximum effectiveness. Ghostcrawler has been clear that disease management is supposed to be our primary focus. Skipping out on a disease to get maximum DPS probably means there's a design flaw (from Blizzard's POV).

salviastria · 12/04/08, 7:28 PM

Yes, Improved Icy Talons is 20 seconds by default, Epidemic does nothing for it. Personally, I'm a big fan of dropping PS from the rotation entirely. My thinking is this:

During our rotation (assuming you're dropping PS) we only use two attacks that actually benefit from Blood Plague. That is to say, Blood Strike and Obliterate. However, with a Glyph'd OB your disease contribution as compared between 1 and 2 diseases is minimal. Additionally, while Blood Strike can hit somewhat hard as Frost, you only use 1 per rotation (usually).

Also, dropping a PS means more global time for FS or Rime procs.

Yes, Ghostcrawler has said that disease management is our primary focus, however I don't believe that implies that all Death Knight specs must have all diseases up at all times in order to do maximum dps.

Hraka · 12/04/08, 7:40 PM

Originally Posted by Nicolai

Well, to get another Obliterate off you'll need an additional death rune, which adds the BS back in.

Also, you also need to add in the DPS from the haste gain for all melee provided by the buff. I'm pretty sure that needs to be reapplied as epidemic doesn't extend that timer (unless it's 20 seconds? which is moot then).

Honestly, I'd be surprised if come 3.1 the didn't change the frost DPS spec to require PS for maximum effectiveness. Ghostcrawler has been clear that disease management is supposed to be our primary focus. Skipping out on a disease to get maximum DPS probably means there's a design flaw (from Blizzard's POV).

This would definitely not be the first time to show that Blizzard wasnt aware of how the core aspects of a class they created work (former paladin here). I think with the talents available to us however that this altered DPS rotation isnt a cheat of anysort or complete venture in a direction other than what Blizz had envisioned. Imp Icy touch is a 20 second buff so you're not running into any problems what so ever with epidemic.

Feorthas: i'm loving the spreadsheet. I ended up screwing up one of the formulas in it and so had to figure out exactly how to use google spreadsheets in order to fix it and while I was at it ended up altering a few other things (hope you dont mind, probably shoulda asked first). Added in 2 spots in the front page to add in effects of both Glyph of Obliterate and Glyph of Icy Touch (1 for yes, 0 for not used). And then added in a small formula for Bladed armor which I had figured you just didnt get around to but think you might be trying to figure out a formula to let someone with the talent already plug in their character sheet's AP lvls and then figure out the AP loss if they were to take away that talent, I'll look at that some more.

I also added in a spot to factor in 2handed weapon spec (something that I also missed in my original calculations in this thread).

With the both glyphs used the dps of all of the weapon based rotations go up between 100-150 dps. When I adjusted the stats closer to my own (almost all heroic blues+3 epics) I found all 3 of the relevant rotations to be very close 2116, 2122, 2112 respectively.

I've exported the sheet now so any further changes wont potentially screw up your work (awesome job though once again).

Edit: I used a rather simplified formula to calculate benefit of Glyph of Obliterate in that spreadsheet cause of the differences in the tooltip of the glyph and the modified tooltip of Obliterate once you actually use the glyph. Has there been any sort of official word as to the actual effects of the glyph? It says it reduces the amount of bonus dmg from diseases however when you use it it actually increases both the basic bonus dmg as well as the disease bonus dmg...

Feorthas · 12/04/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hraka

This would definitely not be the first time to show that Blizzard wasnt aware of how the core aspects of a class they created work (former paladin here). I think with the talents available to us however that this altered DPS rotation isnt a cheat of anysort or complete venture in a direction other than what Blizz had envisioned. Imp Icy touch is a 20 second buff so you're not running into any problems what so ever with epidemic.

Feorthas: i'm loving the spreadsheet. I ended up screwing up one of the formulas in it and so had to figure out exactly how to use google spreadsheets in order to fix it and while I was at it ended up altering a few other things (hope you dont mind, probably shoulda asked first). Added in 2 spots in the front page to add in effects of both Glyph of Obliterate and Glyph of Icy Touch (1 for yes, 0 for not used). And then added in a small formula for Bladed armor which I had figured you just didnt get around to but think you might be trying to figure out a formula to let someone with the talent already plug in their character sheet's AP lvls and then figure out the AP loss if they were to take away that talent, I'll look at that some more.

I also added in a spot to factor in 2handed weapon spec (something that I also missed in my original calculations in this thread).

With the both glyphs used the dps of all of the weapon based rotations go up between 100-150 dps. When I adjusted the stats closer to my own (almost all heroic blues+3 epics) I found all 3 of the relevant rotations to be very close 2116, 2122, 2112 respectively.

I've exported the sheet now so any further changes wont potentially screw up your work (awesome job though once again).

Edit: I used a rather simplified formula to calculate benefit of Glyph of Obliterate in that spreadsheet cause of the differences in the tooltip of the glyph and the modified tooltip of Obliterate once you actually use the glyph. Has there been any sort of official word as to the actual effects of the glyph? It says it reduces the amount of bonus dmg from diseases however when you use it it actually increases both the basic bonus dmg as well as the disease bonus dmg...

Thanks.

And I'm pretty sure that I'm already including Obliterate's glyph in the base Obliterate calculations--there's pretty much no reason to ever not have it so I left that choice out of peoples' hands so they wouldn't do something dumb and do comparisons without the glyph in effect (and yet I left the option in to turn off Blood Presence... oops).