I'm currently DW speccd cause no good 2handers were dropping for me and wanted to play around with other specs. Gargoyle is awesome except for a few things: he's a old style pet so he gets hit by almost 100% of the AE spells out there, lotta times he gets summoned only to drop right away. He gets summoned at half health so if that AE pulls goes at the wrong time it doesnt matter how hard it hits for, he's probably gonna be dead right away. He is a valid target for boss random target abilities and I've seen a few boss mobs turn off tank for just a second to one shot him as soon as he's up.

That being said it is a hell of a lot of damage if you can keep him going for the whole minute, if its a boss fight where you can summon it multiple times then your dps will definitely show. We have shown in the past that dropping points in blood just to go pick up epidemic is not beneficial to overall dps but if you guys who keep bringing it up want to look into Gargoyle I'm always of the opinion that its always best to try to find new things to disprove or to find new things that disprove what you've previously thought as true, so I'd recommend looking at a spec somewhat like:

You still get 2hand spec/gargoyle/FS/ and 2outta3 GoG

This should provide you with enough of the uber talents to put together something that could rival what we're already running with a 21/50 build

Hey there. I've been pouring over quite a few of these threads the last few nights during my evening shifts and did some playing around. Personally I love frost and think it has the most versatility of the 3 specs, and I decided to do some testing.

I have noticed that there has been alot of talk about the classic 17/54 build vs 27/44, and also 21/50, but I only ever see the build I tried, 23/48 mentioned once or twice. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is the build I ran (Rune tap because too many Death runes tends to mess with rotations) and it seems like a REALLY nice trade. You lose 4% from tundra stalker but gain 6% strength stam and 4 expertise overall (9 vs 5).

I ran some tests on the heroic Dummy in Ebon Hold (Dummy was at 90% so no theoretical complications from Merciless Combat). DPS done in Blood Presence with Rune of the Fallen Crusader using the PSless rotation IT OB OB BS FS using Glyphs of Obliterate, Icy Touch, and Blood Strike.

NOTE: A separate test spurred by the blood thread concluded that in a raid setting, Glyph of Blood Strike is indeed effective on Boss Dummies (therefore bosses?) With no consumables several test blood strikes averaged 686 and with a grouped frostfire mage casting Frostfire Bolt the damage increased to an average of 813 (no diseases or procs or any other buffs involved). Same result with heart strike (average 1105 increased to 1354)

Now, the damage tests i did ended with very similar end-DPS, but ironically the spec with more expertise had a terrible string of miss and dodge, which leads me to believe that with similar avoidance occurences (not bad luck) the 23/48 would have outperformed the 17/54. Here are the numbers from the test (Sorry I dont have a WWS Parse I just wrote everything down lol) Howling Blast was only used on Rime Procs. Frost Fever uptime was 100% on both.

I Apologize in Advance for the poor Format


-----------------17/54 - 2728 DPS (9m01s) - 23/48 - 2712 DPS (9m46s)

Obliterate------ 105 - 63 - 32.2 - 106 - 60 - 29.2
Frost Strike---- 125 - 40 - 29.0 - 127 - 41 - 28.2
Melee---------- 217 - 27 - 21.7 - 234 - 28 - 22.9
Blood Strike--- 52 - - 44 - 6.0 - - 61 - - 49 - 6.0
Icy Touch------ 51 - - 33 - 5.8 - - 55 - - 33 - 6.1
Frost Fever---- 160 - NA - 4.2 - - 170 - NA - 4.4
Howling Blast-- 4 -- - 50 - 1.0 - - 12 - - 58 - 3.1

Count - Crit % - Total % - Count - Crit % - Total %

------------------17/54-----------------23/28
---------------- Dodge---Miss--------Dodge--Miss
Obliterate-------- 1-------NA-----------3------NA
Melee-------------3-------NA-----------8------NA
Blood Strike------NA------NA-----------3------NA
Icy Touch---------NA------NA----------NA------7
Howling Blast-----NA------NA----------NA------1


Damage Values (Average damage of each instance of each ability over full duration)

----------------17/54----------------23/48
------------------Hit ----- Crit ------- Hit --- Crit
Obliterate------2320 -- 5898 ----- 2322 -- 5827
Frost Strike----2131 -- 5407 ----- 2108 -- 5572
Melee----------1231 -- 2556 ----- 1289 -- 2641
Blood Strike---1041 -- 2635 ----- 1028 -- 2587
Icy Touch------1271 -- 2553 ----- 1287 -- 2679
Frost Fever-----394 -- max609 ----- 415 -- max711
Howling Blast--2214 -- 5049 ----- 2458 -- 5545



As you can see with the 2 specs the damage was extremely similar, but the 23/48 spec suffered far more from 22 failed abilities vs the 17/54's 4 failed abilities. This can be attributed to not my not being Expertise capped or spell hit capped for either spec, and TERRIBLE luck during the set of tests for 23/48. This test was completed without using any Cooldowns (trinkets ect.) and unfortunately I did not record the amount of Mirror of Truth or RotFC procs because I forgot.

In case my Armory Link doesnt work my stats are:
222.9DPS weapon
9.39% Haste (+5% from talent)
3558 AP
9.85% melee hit
12.31% spell hit
30.94% Melee crit
21.58% spell crit
0 Armor Pen
5.25% Expertise (with 23/48)
4.25% Expertise (with 17/54)
Sigil of Awareness (420 OB damage)

I actually currently use your 23/48/0 build as well and it worked quite well for me (better than 27/44 or 17/54). It is especially better if you have an enhancement shaman in the raid (which is never really and issue).

The only problem I have with the 44/26(1 floater) 2h frost spec is that if your ghoul dies, he's dead for a while. He's great dps when he's alive, but for bosses with AoEs (because those don't exist @--pew--<(^^<) ) he just dies... and stays dead. Then you're 27 points deep in a tree for a 15% dps increase that died. Sure, during trash and pet friendly fights, you'll love your pet and you'll look awesome compared to everyone else, but without him... kinda painful.

That is the spec I have been running for awhile now. I think that it should end up being a bit better than 17/54 considering that Tundra Stalker doesn't affect your melee damage so that 4% decrease from 3/5 Tundra Stalker is more like 3%. Factor in the 'free' 1% Expertise and the fact that VotTW scales with Fallen Crusader and Kings and the bonus from that should more than make up for the remaining 2% DPS loss.

I've been running a 21/50/0 build and pumping out 2900 dps self buffed and between 4500 to 5000 in 25 mans. I just got my 4 piece yesterday, so I have no new numbers in raids for that.

Interestingly, I find that if I ever try to omit unbreakable armor from my rotation, I lose about 50 to 100 dps. The hardest part about using blood tap/UA is that it slows down your last blood rune by about 1-2 seconds. However, I find that if I do it on a x3 frost strike part of my rotation, they come back into line really quickly.

Global cooldowns are now really an issue cause of all the extra frost strikes plus occasional rime procs. I think I am gonna regem for more expertise in the future if it continues to be an issue, I am running 3.25% dodge reduction, but each dodge is felt bigtime, especially if it is a death rune turned into a blood cause of a dodge.

I think I will test out a 23/48/0 build just to see how the str and exp compares.

Mind if I ask your rotation and armory profile to pull 5k dps? I have the 17/54 spec and am max'ing out around 3600dps with 4/5 T7 and Deaths Bite. I don't see unbreakable armor and 2% strength adding 1400dps for me. Just curious as to whats different.

I ment 3600 25 man raid buffed, single target, say Patchwerk for instance. My trash dps is much higher naturally, due to 10k Howling blast crits, but I was just trying to clarify if Mild Confusions alleged 5kdps was AoE or Single-target.

This is my armory Grieves.

I have been experimenting with pvp specs, so my raid spec may not show up.

On Patch, I am pulling roughly 4200 raid buffed, I will try to post a screen of recount when I do him next.

My rotation is to start off with blood tap for a DR, then go.

IT, BS, OB, OB, FS dump

Then repeat till Blood tap comes off cooldown. As soon as it is off cooldown, have a macro to cast blood tap + unbreakable armor at the same time since they are both off GCD. The frost strike dump again. And go back to the normal rotation till the next time I can use BT and UA.

I haven't yet raided with 4piece T7 yet, so my number should be higher on my next patch fight, at least I got a 150 dps increase using that same rotation self buffed on a dummy. I tested with UA and without and even with the interruption on rune usage, I still get more dps using UA and x3 frost strike in blood presence, about a 50-60 dps differance.

Any kind of miss on IT or OB dodge will lower my dps by about 60 till I can get my rotation back on.

That seems about right. Last night was my first run as 17/54/0 in Naxx-25, and was @ 4310 on Patchwerk. It's not far off from my last run on him as 51/13/7 (which was 4485), and I think once I pick up the 4pc bonus it would likely pull ahead. I think the Howling Blast and Frost Strike PTR changes will seal the deal, as the single-target DPS will either be equal or higher (and scaling faster) and the AoE will be miles ahead of anything else.

Here's a WWS from last week's Patch doing 4600 as 17/54/0. I had just come back from some family dinner and quickly spec'd Frost. My binds weren't properly set or my UI for Frost and I was getting constant brain farts at the start until I got used to the rotation (I hadn't played Frost since early Wrath raiding). At the time I was still using Armageddon over Betrayer of Humanity and I still don't have a Sigil of Awareness.

Patchwerk

I just tested out 23/48 vs 21/50.

Over a 10 minute period self buffed 23/48 did 2746 dps.

21/50 did 2955 dps and I broke past 3k dps a few times.

Edit: Here is my dps on Patchwerk 4808.

With a 2H weapon, false. As has been discussed previously in this thread, OB maintains the highest damage-per-rune. Not to mention that it will crit significantly more due to the talents that support it as well as the Sigil that further boosts its damage. IT is inferior in pretty much every manner using a 2H weapon.

Thanks, I'll keep looking through this thread, I just hadn't seen it blatantly stated.

I must admit I am really struggling with my DK, granted I dont have the best gear but decent, my hit is about 40 shy of cap(at cap when buffed) I am right at 775 str, and about 2700 ATK I am currently the authors recommended build other than I replaced Lichborne and icy reach with death rune master, I am using the IT-PS-BS-BS-OB-FS (RP- I burn all my runic power on 3 FS)after the first rotationI will go IT-PS-OB-OB-FS and then mix in a HB when on mutiple targets* ( is it normal for my diesases to run out after every rotation? W/O ant pts. in unholy?.) I am struggling to stay at 1500 dps I have been 80 for almost a week and I have spent serious time on target dummies and practice in genral.I have been in 1 25 man naxx and a 10 man and my numbers were ugly. I am missing something. I dont blame the build or spec it is me and I cant figure out what I am doing wrong. any help would be greatly appreciated.

You should be having enough time to get your diseases back up mo. Also, that's not the rotation to use anymore, it's IT - Oblit - BS - Oblit - Dump, and requires a death rune to start it. It sustains itself after that though. Check your latency - that could definitely affect your dps.

You really should read the last 8-10 pages or so, most of your questions will be answered that way.

First, your spec is off, I recommend a 21/50 build. Hungering cold is not a useful dps talent for 25 man raids and death rune mastery can actually reduce you dps cause of the interruption to your dps rotarion.

Second, your rotation is very wrong and again, read the last several pages. You should start off with Blood Tap, then go IT, BS, OB, OB, (rime proc) FS dump, then repeat. You do not need to use PS in a frost build.

Get to hit cap. Now. Gem for it if you have to. Get some hit enchants. Nothing will screw you over more than a miss.

That should help a bit. Also practice on target dummies.

AOE Rotation:

Blood tap, IT Pestilence HB OB etc etc

To offer some comparison data about 23/48 here is a WWS from Patchwerk this past week:

Wow Web Stats

Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It looks like we have very similar gains/buffs on WWS, the only difference is I show 1 Ferocious Inspiration vs. your 162 (makes me wonder if wws tripped over itself or if our hunter pet's decided to run up and lick Patch's face).

The two specs are very close and it comes down to personal gearing and preference mostly, as we collect more gear with higher strength 23/48 has the potential to scale better with kings/FCrusader etc. With your spec above I would top out much lower then you are showing on wws/dummies, and moved away from it.

The point difference essentially boiled down to a comparison of roughly 128dmg per skill/ability (21/50) vs. gaining roughly 46 strength before raid buffs (23/48 @ ~1140 strength unbuffed) for me.

Edit: Apparently I did not save my profile data earlier -my DK is Tanzerouft on the WWS.

go IT, BS, OB, OB, (rime proc) FS dump, then repeat

hi im new here, and im a avid fan of frost dps, and i just read through the entire post (was bored and had time to spare lol) and i read about the new rotation i posted up ^ and for me i just don't seem to get it right

doing the old plague, it, blood, blood, ob, frost dump.........IT, plague, OB, OB, Frost dumpi pull nearly 2.8k dps in my current gear.........with the new rotation i struggle to hit 2k, am i missing something?

I have to join in, I'm a a decent geared DK, my armory link Jokster I'm working to max my expertise right now, I am hit capped and I have decent ap and crit. The problem is, last time I did patchwerk in 10 man I pulled 3.6k, on 25 man I pulld 4.2k, My standard rotation is BT off the bat IT BS OB OB FS dump and use a rime on the end if its up. Rinse and repeat. I think I can do much higher dps some way, some how. Some advice here wouldn't hurt. Any tweaks I can do to my spec, gear, rotation, anything will help. I have read that last 10 pages of the forums, I don't find the gear level everyones at when they say "I do 6k dps" They don't show there gear, no rotation or anything. I know the rotation isn't hard. But anything that could help me Improve would be much appreciated

Are you trying to keep the same rotation going constantly (ie. tapping your foot and waiting for runes doing nothing) or are you shifting your "rotation" to a priority system after that initial IT,BS,OB,OB with your focus being OB & having enough RP to dump FS's while waiting for OB runes to come back up and unload?

Also, it would be helpful to know what glyphs you are using.

i use deathstrike glyph, oblit glyph, and the 3rd one is my toss up atm i have deathanddecay on, but thats just there for the moment.

and yea i switch to the priority but it just seems i end up as u said standing around waiting on runes and no runic power, mind u i haven't done this in a raid yet, im just trying the test dummys at ebon hold, but i hit blood tap, IT, Blood strike, Oblit, oblit, thats netting me 1 frost strike, then im standing around waiting on runes. does that rotation repeat itself exactly? thats what im attempting to do.