I have to join in, I'm a a decent geared DK, my armory link Jokster I'm working to max my expertise right now, I am hit capped and I have decent ap and crit. The problem is, last time I did patchwerk in 10 man I pulled 3.6k, on 25 man I pulld 4.2k, My standard rotation is BT off the bat IT BS OB OB FS dump and use a rime on the end if its up. Rinse and repeat. I think I can do much higher dps some way, some how. Some advice here wouldn't hurt. Any tweaks I can do to my spec, gear, rotation, anything will help. I have read that last 10 pages of the forums, I don't find the gear level everyones at when they say "I do 6k dps" They don't show there gear, no rotation or anything. I know the rotation isn't hard. But anything that could help me Improve would be much appreciated
You are over the hit cap by close to 1%; do you have a Moonkin or Shadow priest in your 25man raid at all times? Your gem choices are also lacking, move away from AP gems and use STR gems, they scale much better and you would gain a small amount of dps right there and also shed some of that unneeded hit in the process.
Rotations are not set in stone for frost, my entire rotation revolves around OB and generating RP to burn off when OB is not available -sometimes this means I fit one FS in between rune cool downs and other times I will fit 2-3 before OB.
KM procs are bonuses to me and I do not focus any priorities around them at the moment (I am looking into tweaking my attention to them a little better, but to try and work RP around "potential" procs for FS is a bit silly).
Whats the hit cap in raids, we usually always have a shadow priest. If I'm over the hit cap, what do you reccomend me to get for yellow gem sockets? Anything nice for orange gems to fit somewhere? What are the gems I am looking for that will be insanly nice for me atm. What should I replace with new gems ect. I don't mind getting expensive, anything that could improve me
i use deathstrike glyph, oblit glyph, and the 3rd one is my toss up atm i have deathanddecay on, but thats just there for the moment.
and yea i switch to the priority but it just seems i end up as u said standing around waiting on runes and no runic power, mind u i haven't done this in a raid yet, im just trying the test dummys at ebon hold, but i hit blood tap, IT, Blood strike, Oblit, oblit, thats netting me 1 frost strike, then im standing around waiting on runes. does that rotation repeat itself exactly? thats what im attempting to do.
Go ahead and pick up FS and IT glyphs--keep OB. Right now, FS doesn't get you much PvE wise but it'll get you an 8 RP cheaper Frost Strike come next patch. The catch, of course, is that you'll have more RP than you can use as well but you can always drop the IT glyph and/or some points in Chill of the Grave and pick up more DPS by doing so.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Here's a WWS from this past Tuesday. I tried out the 21/50 spec, picking up 1/3 VotTW. I also used a Blood Tap > Unbreakable Armor macro every time it was up after using it at the start of the fight. I used the BT---IT>OB>BS>OB>FS rotation and HB on Rime procs.
I noticed on a majority of fights, Frost Strike was generally about 30% of my damage done with Obliterate and Auto-attack damage fairly close on tank 'n spank fights. Obliterate seemed quite higher on fights that required quite a bit of moving however.
Naberius was 32/39 for the night and was also providing Razorice and Permutation was the standard 17/0/54 Unholy spec.
Overall I was pleased with how the spec worked out. I had to get used to using the Blood Tap/UA macro but I know on several bosses under 35% with other procs/buffs, my Frost Strike and Obliterate were hitting very hard. Gluth for example, I had a HB crit for about 13k and at least one FS for 12k. I know Razorice certainly helped in doing so but I also think UA allowed for some pretty nice numbers once the boss hits the 35% mark. I don't think I'll ever spec out of UA again.
I am somewhat concerned with how well our DW DK did on some fights. Granted, the fights he did beat me on were relatively short which tends to favor Gargoyle but once his gear gets better and after 3.0.8 hits, I won't be surprised if I am constantly getting out-DPS'ed. I've tried out several different DW specs but I really don't like it at all. 2H Frost is really fun and I hope that it continues to stay competetive. I've seen parses of DW DK's doing over 6k DPS depending on the fight. I want to be able to provide as much DPS as possible for the guild and I'm afraid if DW can do so much more than Frost, I will have to find a way to make it work for me.
Whats the hit cap in raids, we usually always have a shadow priest. If I'm over the hit cap, what do you reccomend me to get for yellow gem sockets? Anything nice for orange gems to fit somewhere? What are the gems I am looking for that will be insanly nice for me atm. What should I replace with new gems ect. I don't mind getting expensive, anything that could improve me
Melee hit cap is 8% as of Lich King.
The general consensus is to gear for 8% and have a pair of pieces that you can swap in/out if you have a boomkin/spriest in the raid.
Regarding Gargoyle, it's going to get nerfed, we just don't know how, exactly (as for when, probably within a patch). Blizzard's official policy on DW Death Knights is "if DW outscales 2H, DW will be nerfed down to parity".
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/01/09 at 2:46 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Go ahead and pick up FS and IT glyphs--keep OB. Right now, FS doesn't get you much PvE wise but it'll get you an 8 RP cheaper Frost Strike come next patch. The catch, of course, is that you'll have more RP than you can use as well but you can always drop the IT glyph and/or some points in Chill of the Grave and pick up more DPS by doing so.
With proper attention to Rune cd's you should never have unplanned excess RP -come patch the IT glyph will be something you will want to keep (if not already) to avoid what the the original poster was experiencing with sitting around waiting for something to hit.
Originally Posted by Kalevi
Here's a WWS from this past Tuesday. I tried out the 21/50 spec, picking up 1/3 VotTW. I also used a Blood Tap > Unbreakable Armor macro every time it was up after using it at the start of the fight. I used the BT---IT>OB>BS>OB>FS rotation and HB on Rime procs.
I noticed on a majority of fights, Frost Strike was generally about 30% of my damage done with Obliterate and Auto-attack damage fairly close on tank 'n spank fights. Obliterate seemed quite higher on fights that required quite a bit of moving however.
Naberius was 32/39 for the night and was also providing Razorice and Permutation was the standard 17/0/54 Unholy spec.
Overall I was pleased with how the spec worked out. I had to get used to using the Blood Tap/UA macro but I know on several bosses under 35% with other procs/buffs, my Frost Strike and Obliterate were hitting very hard. Gluth for example, I had a HB crit for about 13k and at least one FS for 12k. I know Razorice certainly helped in doing so but I also think UA allowed for some pretty nice numbers once the boss hits the 35% mark. I don't think I'll ever spec out of UA again.
I am somewhat concerned with how well our DW DK did on some fights. Granted, the fights he did beat me on were relatively short which tends to favor Gargoyle but once his gear gets better and after 3.0.8 hits, I won't be surprised if I am constantly getting out-DPS'ed. I've tried out several different DW specs but I really don't like it at all. 2H Frost is really fun and I hope that it continues to stay competetive.
Kal your link is borked and you reminded me that I did not have Razorice for the WWS posted earlier.
Your observations about OB/FS are right on target with mine.
With proper attention to Rune cd's you should never have unplanned excess RP -come patch the IT glyph will be something you will want to keep (if not already) to avoid what the the original poster was experiencing with sitting around waiting for something to hit.
Actually, even without the 10 RP from the IT glyph, you will be +1 RP/rot. after patch in an IT BS OB FS OB FS rotation. Furthermore, in Blood Presence, you cannot use another GCD without pushing your rotation backward slightly. Admittedly, if you DO get another FS in a Blood Presence setup, you can use it in the first half without delaying the second full rotation; however, you need to finish with a 'traditional' IT BS 2OB 2FS (6 GCD / 7.5 sec) rotation to not delay the second half.
Hmm... Time to do some napkin math and figure out what talents/glyps you'd need to generate 160 RP per full cycle.
Edit: after some mathing, there isn't any way to modify things to generate more RP without dropping an Oblit so you won't ever be able to rattle off triple FS / double FS cycles but you should be able to get it every two or three full cycles.
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/01/09 at 3:13 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
first off thx for the help in my earlier post I tied myself to a target dummy and wont untie it till im comfortable with my output. I do have some questions That might have been anwsered in other post but I havent seen them.
1. I wish someone would start a post about raids with multi DK's I would like to see what stacks and what doesnt, and what specs interact best with each other, does there only need to be 1 dk spreading diesaes(spell check?) ect, ect
2. using the rotation Rune tap-IT-OB-BS-OB-FS_dump in a multi-target pull what is the pest way to use pest. also when in a aoe situation is it ok to use HB inplace of OB once in the rotation
I aplogize if I have repeated questions already anwsered I am trying to read the whole post but there is alot of info to take in and I might have missed it, But thx again for the help this post is my DK Bible
I may give 3/3 Vot3W a try again in the future, but right now I am gemmed for hit and expertise in a few slots and am getting a less return on the strength bonus where the straight 4% damage from tundra stalker is scaling better with my gear.
Getting expertise capped is my current goal so I can free up my gem slots.
Actually, even without the 10 RP from the IT glyph, you will be +1 RP/rot. after patch in an IT BS OB FS OB FS rotation. Furthermore, in Blood Presence, you cannot use another GCD without pushing your rotation backward slightly. Admittedly, if you DO get another FS in a Blood Presence setup, you can use it in the first half without delaying the second full rotation; however, you need to finish with a 'traditional' IT BS 2OB 2FS (6 GCD / 7.5 sec) rotation to not delay the second half.
Hmm... Time to do some napkin math and figure out what talents/glyps you'd need to generate 160 RP per full cycle.
Edit: after some mathing, there isn't any way to modify things to generate more RP without dropping an Oblit so you won't ever be able to rattle off triple FS / double FS cycles but you should be able to get it every two or three full cycles.
When the stars align you can get a Butchery RP tick at the right moment that allows for the 2 FS's at the perfect time, and don't forget to factor the RP you get from a Rune Tap.
When the stars align you can get a Butchery RP tick at the right moment that allows for the 2 FS's at the perfect time, and don't forget to factor the RP you get from a Rune Tap.
True; it'll probably be more often than every 50 seconds or so but that's a fair ballpark estimate for spreadsheets & whatnot.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Actually, even without the 10 RP from the IT glyph, you will be +1 RP/rot. after patch in an IT BS OB FS OB FS rotation. Furthermore, in Blood Presence, you cannot use another GCD without pushing your rotation backward slightly. Admittedly, if you DO get another FS in a Blood Presence setup, you can use it in the first half without delaying the second full rotation; however, you need to finish with a 'traditional' IT BS 2OB 2FS (6 GCD / 7.5 sec) rotation to not delay the second half.
Hmm... Time to do some napkin math and figure out what talents/glyps you'd need to generate 160 RP per full cycle.
Edit: after some mathing, there isn't any way to modify things to generate more RP without dropping an Oblit so you won't ever be able to rattle off triple FS / double FS cycles but you should be able to get it every two or three full cycles.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but IT-BS-OB-OB With Glyph of Icy Touch, Chill of the Grave, 4 pc t7, and Butchery generates ~99 RP per 10 seconds, and Frost Strike with Glyph costs 32. That's a triple Frost Strike every 10 seconds.
If you're having problems with IT-BS-OB-OB, then switch to OB-OB-(IT-BS) and rotate the IT and BS every rotation. With the previous IT-BS-OB-OB, if your latency is really low, you'll slowly get your last OB pushed back over time. With the second rotation, you sacrifice a little bit on your first two OB (which on a boss fight isn't a big deal), but after that you never should have a problem with runes coming back on time.
DK Frost Mage Note: This is dependant on the current PTR changes to go live.
If the change to Howling Blast being off a cooldown goes live, there exists the possibility of creating a Death Night that does Significantly better at range than most other specs
As seen by the relative worth posted elsewhere of having Unholy aura increasing damage done, and the very real need to not just stand next to a boss. The ability to do more ranged damage seems, in the very least, to be worth looking at
This is also based on the recent discussions about avoiding PS to get higher dps
In order for this to work, only 3 skills are truly needed
Icy Reach
Howling Blast (with 0 cooldown)
Reaping - to generate the required Death Runes
With pet skills added for extra damage
The rotation would be: (starting with Blood Tap for the first Death Rune) Melee: IT, BS, OB, OB, RD Ranged: IT, BB, HB, HB, RD
Extra HB when Rime Procs RD would be Gargoyle if available or DC if not or if there is too much AoE for the gargoyle to survive
The availability of pets should add some reasonably high additional dps in most situations.
EDIT: Note that the 1 point in Crypt Fever adds not just 10% to Frost Fever, but adds a second disease, so your OB hits harder
EDIT-2: Playing with Deathgraf - This beats the standard Frost build - even with no pets and hammers it with pets, and this does not include the patch changes and the benefit from range
I am posting this in the Frost thread because although slightly more points are spent in unholy, it functions more like a Frost spec
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but IT-BS-OB-OB With Glyph of Icy Touch, Chill of the Grave, 4 pc t7, and Butchery generates ~99 RP per 10 seconds, and Frost Strike with Glyph costs 32. That's a triple Frost Strike every 10 seconds.
I keep forgetting about that 4pc bonus.
25 + 10 + 30 + 30 = 95
That's still 1 short and that's pretty horrible because you'll probably overflow quite often. Fortunately, there are a number of options: go for a 3/3, 3/2 setup--the marginal benefit of a 21-22s 3/3 is probably positive, even though it delays your rune usage--change glyphing, or change talents to drop down to ~80 RP/10s (which is what you want for a 3/2).
Heck, depending on how good/bad the pants/hat slots for T7 are, we may not want to even wear them, very much like the chest--it's simply horrible because of the points wasted in Haste. Admittedly, it IS the best way to get a 3/2 rolling, but it's all about the marginal benefit vs marginal cost and that's a very tricky thing to model.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
That's still 1 short and that's pretty horrible because you'll probably overflow quite often. Fortunately, there are a number of options: go for a 3/3, 3/2 setup--the marginal benefit of a 21-22s 3/3 is probably positive, even though it delays your rune usage--change glyphing, or change talents to drop down to ~80 RP/10s (which is what you want for a 3/2).
Heck, depending on how good/bad the pants/hat slots for T7 are, we may not want to even wear them, very much like the chest--it's simply horrible because of the points wasted in Haste. Admittedly, it IS the best way to get a 3/2 rolling, but it's all about the marginal benefit vs marginal cost and that's a very tricky thing to model.
You're forgetting Butchery, which is 4 more RP per 10 seconds (99). I'm having trouble following your logic here though. Yes, you can potentially end up with RP overflow, but in practice that can never be a "bad" thing for dps. I'm thinking situations like Maexxna where your rotations can be unexpectedly interupted, and the extra 19 RP from a 99 RP cycle vs. intentionally dropping to 80 RP could make the difference between an extra FS or not. I can see where you can gain damage by not wearing tier gear but overflow itself isn't a bad thing. Yes, you have a resource that you're not using, but just because you have a resource doesn't mean you have to alter your rotations to use it if your current rotation is ideal. It's just another tool in the closet to recover from the unexpected.
Either way I'd be inclined to believe that the extra FS would be a dps gain even if you do delay your rotation. Obliterate hits slightly harder than FS, but FS hits much harder than IT and BS. Using Kalevi's average numbers for example, if you do 4 Frost Strikes and delay your rune rotations by 4 GCDs (one full rotation) your total damage from the frost strikes is:
3249 * 4 = 12996
and the damage from the rune rotation (displayed as IT-BS-OB-OB) that's been lost would have been:
1777 + 1481 + 3336 + 3336 = 9930
I'm not sure if one cycle of a Frost Fever dot is lost by delaying the rotation (I'm thinking it isn't as long as you keep the dot up?), but even if it is then the numbers are still in favor of FS
9930 + 2199 = 12129
Any corrections are welcome if I've got anything wrong here.
Currently in a normal raid encounter I have more RP than I can ever use without delaying my rotation. I have 4pc, + Glyph of IT, so with the PSless rotation and in blood presence I can never seem to dump enough of it. I'm not sure if this is just a problem on my end, but I'm pretty confident in my ability to execute my rotations. With the upcoming change to Glyph of Frost Strike I know I'll just have even more wasted RP. As mentioned before, excess RP isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I've been wondering if there was something I could do about it.
I was considering dropping the 2 talent points in Chill of the Grave and placing them somewhere else, such as Icy Reach. The extra 10 yard range could be of benefit in some situations. If not Icy Reach, a shorter CD on DnD would be nice for encounters like OS with drakes up to help with adds. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this.
My real concern is would dropping the 2 points from Chill of the Grave reverse my situation and take me from having excess RP to never having enough?
Well, your dps is an average of your damage over time, obviously. So, if FS does > average damage than the average damage of your rotation (which it probably does) then there is no reason not to delay your rotation for FS.
*shrug* I would love some more free Frost Strike crits. I like 2h frost more than dw frost anyways, as far as being fun and streamline (although post patch dw frost will work just like 2h frost except you do HB instead of OB).
01/01/09, 2:16 PM
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