Hraka

Your numbers for OB are off slightly cause you did not factor in the +292 bonus dmg (its 100%+292+146/disease or glyphed: 120%+292+73/disease)

I think the stats you used are a bit accurate however the crit you're using is probably a bit too low for those numbers of AP and weapon dmg, I'd say factor in something more like 30-35% (might have fury or feral in raid) I know with my crappy blues plus few heroics pieces I'm sitting at 25% crit with just horn of winter sitting at a training dummy.

And from the looks of it I didnt factor in subversion or guile of gorefeind into my above calculations (yay for math too early in the morning).

 

Baphomette

I've been debating 5/5 TS 1/3 Vo3W versus 3/5 TS 3/3 Vo3W for a while myself. 4% damage on your specials is about 3% of your total DPS, and it's actually only 2 extra expertise gained because you lose 2 switching points from Tundra Stalker. +4% Strength is certainly less than +3% DPS but +4% Strength +4% Stamina and +2 expertise make it a harder decision. I'm looking at some variant of a 23/48/0 spec myself, should fare very well PVP and tanking and be good enough to DPS with until dual specs come along.

 

Andread

Thanks, I adjusted my post.

Hopefully someone figures out boss armor values soon and we can get an idea if OB and HB are in the same ballpark - so far I'm surprised how close they are.

 

Applejuiced

I'm not really liking the 27/44 blood and frost hybrid spec, I got spoiled with epidemic, so I'm thinking of maybe trying something along the lines of this 14/50/7 Spec if anyone has any input, it would be appreciated

 

Hraka

With the slightly different numbers I ran for the two abilities above the DR needed would be 37.12% showing that as the ratio to AP and crit/weapondmg changes this DR equalizer also changes. Other large factors would be differences in spell hit and presence of EP/CoE/Earth and Moon.

So w/e here goes those comparisons all assuming specials hit capped:
HB(0.92)/OB (no EP/misery/virulence): 42.15% DR
HB(0.92)(1.13)/OB (EP, no misery, no virulence): 34.63% DR
HB(0.95)(1.13)/OB (EP, Misery, no virulence): 32.50% DR
HB(0.98)(1.13)/OB (EP, Misery, Virulence): 30.37% DR
HB(0.95)/OB (Virulence, no misery/EP): 40.26% DR

 

Andread

Here are some other frost dps things I've been considering:

[Sigil of Awareness] is obviously awesome for frost. What other notable gear might frost DKs be lusting after?

Miss/dodged obliterates spent on death runes really hurt. What's the best way to recover?

Also, the risk of that happening probably makes it a bad idea to use deathchill when about to spend death runes. Which attack gets the most benefit from deathchill - obliterate because it hits so hard or something with a lower crit rate?

 

Hraka

I've been trying to keep away from the whole 17/54 vs 27/44 debate but I think we might as well at this point at least factor in tundra stalker to our calculations.

So here's some more numbers added to the discussion.
In regards to comparing refreshing diseases before they have run out or not, assuming second application of the diseases (so both glacier rot and tundra stalker can be added in), along with two rotations. These assuming 700 avg dmg weapon, 4k AP, 33crit

12sec rotation PS, IT, no Tundra Stalker:
PS: [(700)+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.3)+113= 605.85(1.36)= 823.96 dmg
BP: (4000x0.055)= 220/tick x4= 880 dmg
IT: (227+4000x0.1)(1.3)(1.3)(1.1)= 1165.60(1.48)= 1725.09 dmg
FF: (4000x0.055)(1.3)(1.1)= 314.6/tick x4= 1258.4 dmg
Dmg/12 sec: 4687.45 dmg
DPS: 390.62 dmg

10 sec rotation (refreshing as soon as rune come up), no Tundra Stalker:
PS: [(700)+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.3)+113= 605.85(1.36)= 823.96 dmg
BP: (4000x0.055)= 220/tick x3= 660 dmg
IT: (227+4000x0.1)(1.3)(1.3)(1.1)= 1165.60(1.48)= 1725.09 dmg
FF: (4000x0.055)(1.3)(1.1)= 314.6/tick x3= 943.8 dmg
Dmg/10 sec: 4152.85 dmg
DPS: 415.29

10 sec rotation, 5/5 Tundra Stalker:
PS: {[(700)+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.3)+113}(1.1)= 666.44(1.36)= 906.36 dmg
BP: (4000x0.055)= 220/tick x3= 660(1.1)= 726 dmg
IT: (227+4000x0.1)(1.3)(1.3)(1.1)(1.1)= 1282.16(1.48)= 1897.60 dmg
FF: (4000x0.055)(1.3)(1.1)= 314.6/tick x3= 943.8(1.1)= 1038.18 dmg
Dmg/10 sec: 4568.14 dmg
DPS: 456.81

From just these two moves we see a dps increase of 16.94%. By ignoring 1 of the disease ticks for both FF and BP we get a higher dps increase from being able to add in more PSs and ITs. With a 10 second rotation on these strikes we're only losing out on one disease tick which isnt enough to take away from the benefit of adding another initial effect (IT, PS).

Now if we factor in the other runic strikes:
Glyphed OB: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](1.2)+292+146}= 2409.43+ 0.60(2409.43x1.45)= 4505.63 dmg
BS: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.5)+191+(95.5x2)}(1.15)= 1378.68+ 0.45(1378.68x1.45)= 2278.27 dmgx2= 4556.54 dmg
FS: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.6)+150}(1.1)(1.3)= 1624.07+ 0.45(1624.07x1.45)= 2683.78 dmg
for:
10 sec rotation: 4505.63+ 4556.54+ 2683.78= 11745.95dmg
DPS: 1174.60 (1292.06 w/ Tundra Stalker)
12sec dps: 978.83

For a second go around in this sequence with 2 OBs and 2 FSs:
OB: 4505.63x2= 9011.26 dmg
FS: 2683.78x2= 5367.56 dmg
for:
10 sec rotation: 9011.26+ 5367.56= 14378.82
DPS: 1437.88 (1581.67 w/ Tundra Stalker)
12 sec: 1198.24

Assuming unlimited RP how does this change with 2 FSs in first rotation or 3 FSs in second rotation? Adding these in results in PS, IT, OB, BS, BS, FS, FS or PS, IT, OB, OB, FS, FS, FS for 7x1.5 or 10.5 second rotation (assuming 11 with latency).
For first rotation: 906.36+ 726+ 1897.60+ 1038.18+ 4505.63+ (2278.27x2)+ (2683.78x2)= 18997.87 or 1727.08 dps
For second rotation: 906.36+ 726+ 1897.60+ 1038.18+ (4505.63x2)+ (2683.78x3)= 21630.74 or 1966.43 dps

So without the extra FSs in each rotation we have an average of:
(16314.09+ 18946.96)/2= 17630.53 or 1763.05 dps
With the extra FSs in each rotation we have an average of:
(18997.87+ 21630.74)/2= 20314.31 or 1846.76 dps
For a dps increase of 4.75%

Now its time to cook my cornbread so someone else will have to figure out how all of this changes without tundra stalker and if glyphed for IT is necessary for the extra FS in each rotation and what type of dps loss we'll see from the 10% less dmg on that move. Happy Turkey Day.

 

EwokChilli

Since it can easily be agreed that PS is rather lacking, especially with no points in Unholy, would it not be better to try a rotation of just IT->BS->OB->OB, and you can always Blood Tap before hand to get the necessary death rune for the 2nd OB on the rotation. Also, with the huge amount of damage that IT does spec'd, I wouldn't see a reason to not want to lose one tick of IT and start your rotation again (and each BS gets you your new death rune for OB). Also, Glyphed, IT gives you 25 runic, BS gives 10, OB gives 20x2, so other than the very first rotation, you're going to be able to double FS after each rotation. You of course would also Glyph OB, since you're only keeping one disease up anyways. From the math shown earlier, I would like to say that OB > BS + PS, and it makes the rotation incredibly easy. And for AoE trash, of course you just switch out one OB for HB, but you have to keep the BS because you need the death rune. Be sure to put BS before the OB or else it'll be really clunky.

 

Brutorious

So regarding epidemic in frost builds, it just doesnt seem like its worth the points in unholy, and without needing epidemic you can go the 17/54 route.

Just from my own testing on the dummies and reading, our single target frost rotation does not take advantage of epidemics extra duration, and in the case of my testing actually made my dps lower.

but a bigger question I have is, is unholy really better at aoe AND single? seems like every dps DK in top guilds are rolling the 17/0/54 unholy spec of some variation. Did something change between frosts top dps numbers in beta and now?

I like the frost tree, what I was drawn to the most...but the lack of frost enthusiasm is a little disturbing. Can anyone give any input about it?

 

Hraka

It is kinda disappointing the amount of attention devoted to this thread. I think a bit of it has to do with both blood and unholy being easier lvling specs than frost. Currently people are guessing that Unholy does more dps than frost but really until everyone figures out what their actual ideal spec and rotations are so no real comparisons can be made. NEED MORE PEOPLE CRUNCHING NUMBERS!!!

I think currently the big things that are needed for this frost spec discussion are:
What is a good average boss armor value to assume in our calculations or at least whats a good range?
What the hell is a good model in order to calculate the actual scaling benefit of Killing Machine as far as how to we calculate the actual return on talent point spendage, and how do we factor in its contribution to IT, HB & FS when calculating their average dmg?

What else needs to be covered?

 

Hraka

My wow install is currently dieing and freezing 1-5 minutes into logging on so that means I get to spend the otherwise unproductive time on other unproductive endeavors, so without further ado...

To glyph or not to glyph:
Using the above model I showed how an unglyphed IT 11 second rotation with 2/3 frost strikes was a good dps boost as opposed to sticking to 1/2 FSs and reapplying your diseases as soon as their runes came off the cooldowns. So... can we actually support this massive Runic Power usage?
The above situation involves needing to generate 40x2+40x3 runic power over 22 seconds.
200RP/22sec=9.10 RP/sec
Unglyphed we're looking at 10+15+20+10+10 (spend) +10+15+20+20 (spend) for 130 RP plus 8 from butchery for 138 RP over these 22 seconds or about 62 RP short.
Glyphed IT gives us 10+25+20+10+10+10+25+20+20= 150 plus 8 from butchery for 158 or 42 RP short. So even glyphed we're not really looking at a situation where you can pull off these many frost strikes. In fact we're actually short of the RP that we need for 2 of the FSs in the dream rotation I posted above (damnit).

Overall with the glyph we're looking at 1 extra FS every 2 full (22 sec) rotations for an average boost of 2683.78/2= 1319.39 dmg added on to each 22 sec rotation from the added FS.
The decrease in dmg for each rotation would be IT: (1897.60x2)-(1897.60x2x0.99)= 113.10 dmg
Net dmg increase= 1319.39-113.10= 1206.30 dmg or 54.83 dps.

Edit: So far we're seeing that OB and IT glyphs are definite bonuses to Frost raiding (I'm sure some of you guys already guessed it but screw you, I own a calculator).

 

Hraka

OMG I'M ON A ROLL (and pretty much incapable of leaving my chair as I've already dipped into thanksgiving leftovers for the second time so far). EwokChilli suggested an interesting cast sequence so lets see if it works out. The assumption required for this rotation is that its not the first time leading into the mob, if so you're gonna be short a disease on IT for the bonus and you're also going to not have a death rune. What you're losing out on here is a 10% boost to IT from glacier rot, and I believe a 10% buff to FF from glacier rot. I know Frost Fever isnt included in the tooltip but my FF ticks higher than normal when I've got blood plague on their too. You're actually not missing out on a blood strike cause the rotation would end up being IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, FS instead of PS, IT, OB, BS, BS, FS, PS, IT, OB, OB, FS, FS so the comparison would be directly between 1 obliterate and 2 plague strikes+2 blood plagues+ the bonus dmg on 4 OBs and 2 BSs (looking like a lot to overcome, although this would free up a lot of gcds and push us back to a 10 sec rotation).
Using above numbers:
IT: 1897.60(0.99)= 1878.62
FF: 1038.18(0.99)= 1027.80
BS: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](0.5)+191+(95.5x1)}(1.15)= 1274.12 + 0.45(1274.12x1.45)= 2105.48
OB: {[700+(4000/14)(3.3)](1.2)+292+73}= 2336.43+ 0.60(2336.43x1.45)= 4369.12x2=
FS: 2683.78x 1.5 (for the avg of FS over a 20 sec period)= 4025.67
Total: 17775.81 or 1777.58 dps
Compared to 1763.05 for a dps increase of 00.8%...

OK, 8/10s of a % isnt a huge increase at all, its barely an increase at all when just looking at these numbers. HOWEVER, this could be a nice increase when you factor in the increased leeway in extra global cooldowns, you're looking at 7.5 sec worth of cooldowns when just using 1 FS or 9 sec of global cooldowns with 2 FSs this also helps alleviate the question of where do we fit in the Rime procs, using a potion, w/e.

If anyone can find holes in these calculations pls do but in the mean time it looks like EwokChillis suggestion is good to go so...

NEW FROST DPS ROTATION!!!!
First time moving up to a mob: IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, FS
Every single other time: IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS, FS

The numbers are slightly off cause they're comparing IT unglyphed in both situations so the rar numbers will be slightly different i using the other numbers I calculated earlier however the end result will be the same: a very small increase in dps but a very noticable boost in free global cooldown seconds.

 

Feorthas

The most favorable way to model Killing Machine is to assume--correctly--that it will trigger at a rate equal to 50% of your crit chance over an infinite number of attacks. Building on this, since we are attempting to answer the question "could Killing Machine be worthwhile to pick up in a Frost DPS build?", we should then assume that we will always use KM on the most damaging attack possible; this skill will nomnally be Frost Strike, barring an AoE situation. While this is nowhere near 'realistic', as I often ended up using KM procs on IT because my rotation had simply gotten to that point, it will provide a ceiling for KM's contributon.

Based on exactly this process, I determined that 5/5 KM netted an 8-10% increase in Frost Strike damage, which would most likely be about 15% of my overall output, yielding a final, theoretical DPS increase of about 1.1%. As this topic comes up relatively often--to be honest, it's beginning to feel like the old "should a shaman drop GoA or WF totem?" topics :-/--I'll build a spreadsheet on google docs tommorrow if I can get access to a real PC (or figure out how to edit docs on the good 'ol iPhone) and try to put a definative answer together.

In all honesty, I'd love to be wrong about the ~1.1% damage increase as KM is definitely much more fun than Black Ice but, as things stand, Black Ice buffs Icy Touch and Frost Fever scaling by 30% (along with Howling Blast) and that's rather hard to give up.

 

Alvira

Do we have the time to fit in so many frost strikes? I think we are not factoring misses here, and like it or not, these definitely happen. I was actually thinking of a rotation that is counter intuitive, but might recover from misses better.

Mine is for 27/44 blood/frost build, so its just one rotation since blood strikes hits hard too.

Its IT, OB, BS, BS, FS (once or twice depending on how much runic power you have), finally finish with PS, if GCD permits.

Why finish with PS? The reason is that it is our weakest attack. I strongly feel that as gear continues to scale up, and since frost will use glyph of obliterate anyway, then the extra damage we derive from having the plague strike disease up is negligable. Missing an obliterate or other hard hitting stirke and being unable to get it in again before all your other runes activate again is worse.

The above rotation I suggest purposely leaves PS at the end. So, in the event you have enough RP to frost strike twice, or if you miss one of your strikes, then you can reapply it within the 10 second rotation at the loss of not plague striking. And that loss is far preferable than losing out on any other strike.

If GCD permits, and you have time to fit in your PS at the end, your subsequent rotation will then benefit from it. It also front loads more of your damage so that in fights where you have periods of fight , move, fight again, you at least did most of your damage in the shortest amount of time before moving off. You can break off DPS earlier because all you are sacrificing is PS which is a weak attack anyway.

I subscribe that we should not automatically think that having two diseases up for frost is mandatory or it is equal to worse DPS.

 

Hraka

I think its definitely incorrect to assume we'll spend the KM procs on FS or even HB as this would assume that if it procs right before we're about to cast IT then we would instead delay our rotations by 1.5 secs each time this occurred and a guaranteed crit on 1 ability would not end up being more than the dps loss incurred by continually delaying our rotations by a global cooldown.. I think the only safe conclusion is that theoretically KM will be used more often on FS than ITs because we cast more FSs than ITs but only by a small proportion.

Edit: I think once we end up looking into it we'll end up seeing a lot of the same conclusions that the people in the Unholy thread are coming up with and that being that most of our talent points arent worth anywhere near 1% dps increase per talent point expenditure and that our tree ends up being just a lot of little bits of increase all put together.

 

Alvira

Not only that. I think there's a lot to manage within frost rotations already. So, trying to change around your rotation to ensure it only applies to frost strike is difficult and a delay in thinking and reacting may actually result in worse DPS. So, I don't like killing machine either and feel that given the high crits that Obliterates already have, its not very useful. This applies even for stuff like deathchill. For me, I just macro deathchill to my frost strike. It ensures that I do use it everytime it is up as opposed to waiting for the right moment and end up not using it as a result.

 

Baphomette

Back in beta someone had come up with a 15-second rotation for non-Epidemic specs -- anyone who remembers better than I is free to hop in and correct me but I believe it went something like this:

PS - IT - BS - O - BS - O - BS

which is repeatable. Because this doesn't depend on death runes you can skip BotN and save points, although because the rotation uses three BSes you might want to keep it in anyway... and you would probably want Bloody Strikes in a 27/44 type of build. Damn those talents like BotN that encourage you to use an ability on the one hand and discourage it (via death runes) with the other. :p

Anyway, curious to see the mathemagicians' stance on this one since I haven't seen it mentioned in weeks. I really like the look of the IT BS O O since even as B/U PS feels underwhelming... but always open to options.

 

shed

Regarding if HB or OB should be used, just remember that 2pc T7 gives OB an extra 5% crit chance and that 4pc gives 10 extra RP, also subversion gives us an extra 9% crit to OB. Also all that agility we get doesn't improve our HB crits while it improves OB. Self buffed with just Horn of Winter, it says I get 11% crit from agility, this would be more in a raid.

So to sum it up, OB will get 14% more crit chance (and another +10% from agility) and generate 10 more RP each swing.

In terms of which actually does more of a 'big' number, i'm mostly in full T7/T7.5 with a 204 DPS/832 top-end weapon and I'm seeing HB do 100-200 more damage in 5 mans when a mob/boss isn't debuffed with sunder armor. In a 25 man raid I'm seeing OB do more (i'm also glyphed with OB of course).

 

Louky

OB Critchance is even 29% higher than HB: 9% Subversion, 15% Rime, 5% 2pc T7. Add your crit from agility, Sigil of Awareness (420 Dmg on OB), 4pc T7 (5 RP on OB), Glyph of Obliterate and the higher Hit-requirement of Spells to the equation and your DPS with OB will be much higher than HB on single-target fights.
Actually I only use HB when Rime procs and I cannot spend RP on a Killing Machine Froststrike, or on AoE Pulls (obviously).

 

• Zurm

You *really* don't need epidemic. In fact, I would say it's almost detrimental to frost.

PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> Oblit -> FS dump
PS -> IT -> Oblit -> Oblit -> FS dump

Using the above rotation with a "typical" 17/54/0, you generate MORE RP per cycle than an epidemic cycle (especially with the IT glyph). Your main trick as frost isn't actually Oblit, it's FS. Sure, Oblit hits harder, but what keeps frost competitive is how much better FS is than death coil.

Plus, your IT as frost hits like a truck, so the damage loss is negligible to start.

I guarantee that if you pick your upgrades right, by the time you're done with T7 gear you will be hit and expertise capped without being forced to gem for it. I still have 4 major upgrades to go, which will put me WELL over the hit cap (I'll have to remove *all* of my +hit gems) and I'm already sitting at 1 expertise point over cap.

IMO, this is not an issue. Frost has a fairly open rotation, and dumping FS is is entirely worth it, even if you miss a disease tick.

 

• Lanky

This is really really true. You don't need Epidemic, but you *do* need Tundra Stalker. I think there are several reasons why 54/17 Frost trumps builds with Epidemic. Firstly:

1. As Zurm noted, the Rotation doesn't really call for the additional disease time, they are up just long enough to guarantee additional Obliterate or Howling Blast Damage, and then you start dumping Runic Power.

2. Double Mastery talents. With both Blood of the North and Death Rune Mastery, 54/17 can change its rotation ad nauseum to account for different circumstances; a mobile boss, having to flee from a cleave / WW, starting to AOE. This build has access to more Death Runes at any given time than any other.

3. Here's what I would use.. I think the two choices that are odd are Hungering Cold and 2/3 Runic Power Mastery. Let me explain. First, I'd argue you take 2/3 Runic or nothing in it at all, because 2/3 means you have a maximum of 120 Runic power, which is precisely enough for three Frost Strikes. Once you get the 4 piece DPS set bonus, this becomes really viable and I suggest looking into it once you get the chance. Hungering cold is mainly there to save someone from runaway trash mobs, if you don't consider that a big deal, just don't take it.

4. On Killing Machine. If you use Killing Machine in a 2H frost build, as I would, the value of Haste drastically rises, because haste increases your white swing count in a scaling fashion, and that is why I would argue that you need to take all the Imp Icy Talons talents if you are taking Killing Machine, attacking 25% to 40% faster simply increases the value of Killing Machine to the point where it is a solid DPS investment. Otherwise, for 2Handers it really is not.

 

Andread

How competitive is frost? I'm frost atm and enjoying it a lot, but when it comes time to do serious raiding I have to make sure I'm bringing the best DPS I can. I don't want to be another TBC combat dagger rogue...

It'd be nice to see some WWS from frost DKs. Anyone have some?

 

shed

How hard is it to really spec and try? As a DK you're not bringing rogue DPS in the first place, but to give you an idea, I'm seeing 17/54/0 being on bar with a good blood spec. It's hard to say exactly because my gear changes almost every day.

 

dr_AllCOM3

My spreadsheet tells me, that Unholy is by far the best subspec. You lose some white+yellow damage, but Necrosis & BCB offset that by quite a margin.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

Hraka

Necrosis is only a 10% buff to 30% of your dmg for a grand total of 3% dps buff, judging from how BCB effects unholy/blood BCB is probably a dps boost of 5-6%. So overall we're looking at a dps boost of 8% with going into unholy but losing out on 5% crit, 4% weapon dmg, extra AP, extra RP, extra crit chance on the majority of our moves.

What spreadsheet are you using and how is it actually calculating all this stuff? Spreadsheets are only as good as the formulas they're working off of and at this point I dont think there's enough data really to use them properly.

What does everyone else think about the sequence I ran numbers for above?
IT, BS, OB, OB, dump, repeat

As stated above it wont work for the very first time but every time afterwards the single bloodstrike you use will give you the death rune needed for next rotations extra OB, you lose out on the extra disease dmg on your strikes and the MASSIVE dmg included on PS and BP, but as the numbers I ran above show the extra OB makes up for it and provides us with some nice extra room.