I just fell on a post from Ghostcrawler on MMO champion.
A proc per minute ? Wouldn't that impact Frost 2h dps too ? Or do they mean a PPM mechanic instead?
Hard to say, but they will do something about DW soon, and it will change 2h frost too.
They mean changing it to a PPM mechanic, which depending on how high the PPM number is, will mostly likely result in the talents value for 2H going up and it's worth for DW going down.
Update on the 2/2 vs 3/2 vs 3/3 Frost Strikes thing:
3/2 is 200-300 DPS more than 2/2.
3/3 is 40-70 DPS more than 3/2 (adds 1s to rotation time).
Now, the question becomes: can we do 3/2 and get a higher damage output by swapping talents around OR is 55-60 avg dps more than 2-3 talent points will get us?
Also, I'm redoing my spreadsheet... Again. Adding flags for 3/2 & 3/3 kinda effed things up.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
They mean changing it to a PPM mechanic, which depending on how high the PPM number is, will mostly likely result in the talents value for 2H going up and it's worth for DW going down.
They might have to change the talent so that only Main Hand swings proc Killing Machine, other wise Dual Wield will have exactly twice the procs per minute that a 2H gets.
Lets say you have two 1.0 speed weapons and a crit rate of 25%. So right now you would get a total of 120 swings in 60 seconds, for 15 KM procs (25% of 80 crit, half of those proc KM). So 7.5 PPM for each hand.
For a 2H, with a 3.0 speed weapon and a crit rate of 30%, you'd get 20 swings in 60 seconds, for 3 KM procs. so 3 PPM.
So to actually nerf KM for DW, you would have to make KM proc only on Main Hand swings, or any nerf on KM for DW will buff 2h very little.
They might have to change the talent so that only Main Hand swings proc Killing Machine, other wise Dual Wield will have exactly twice the procs per minute that a 2H gets.
Lets say you have two 1.0 speed weapons and a crit rate of 25%. So right now you would get a total of 120 swings in 60 seconds, for 15 KM procs (25% of 80 crit, half of those proc KM). So 7.5 PPM for each hand.
For a 2H, with a 3.0 speed weapon and a crit rate of 30%, you'd get 20 swings in 60 seconds, for 3 KM procs. so 3 PPM.
So to actually nerf KM for DW, you would have to make KM proc only on Main Hand swings, or any nerf on KM for DW will buff 2h very little.
You're thinking about PPM mechanics incorrectly.
Let's say they set it to 5PPM, and I'll ignore the crit aspect of the talent for now.
For your 2H example of 20 swings in 60 seconds you would have 5/20, or 25%, chance on each swing to proc KM.
For your DW example of 120 swings in 60 seconds you would have 5/120, or 4.17% chance on each swing to proc KM.
I don't know the best way to combine PPM with a chance to crit, but you could do the math a few different ways depending on if you wanted KM to scale with crit gear or not.
Let's say they set it to 5PPM, and I'll ignore the crit aspect of the talent for now.
For your 2H example of 20 swings in 60 seconds you would have 5/20, or 25%, chance on each swing to proc KM.
For your DW example of 120 swings in 60 seconds you would have 5/120, or 4.17% chance on each swing to proc KM.
I don't know the best way to combine PPM with a chance to crit, but you could do the math a few different ways depending on if you wanted KM to scale with crit gear or not.
What I meant was if MH and OH were both 5 PPM, meaning you got 5 procs per minute each hand, like having both weapons enchanted with Mongoose.
So if KM was 5 ppm, you would get 5 procs from each hand, getting exactly double the effect for DW compared to 2h.
For this to be a nerf to DW, you'd have to restrict KM procs to MH swings, or you'd have to find a sweet spot PPM that nerfs DW but buffs 2h. (I have never heard of an PPM that took into account both hands' speeds).
I believe the solution that is being described is an internal cooldown ala Windfury.
Personally, if they changed it to a proc chance on every strike, rather than just white hits, I'd be fine with that; it brings the 2H / DW specs almost in-line with number of procs and the benefit to Frost Strike is better than the benefit to Howling Blast (bringing them closer to parity).
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/07/09 at 12:07 AM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
What I meant was if MH and OH were both 5 PPM, meaning you got 5 procs per minute each hand, like having both weapons enchanted with Mongoose.
So if KM was 5 ppm, you would get 5 procs from each hand, getting exactly double the effect for DW compared to 2h.
For this to be a nerf to DW, you'd have to restrict KM procs to MH swings, or you'd have to find a sweet spot PPM that nerfs DW but buffs 2h. (I have never heard of an PPM that took into account both hands' speeds).
Five PPM would be a nerf to DW and a buff to 2H Frost.
Assuming a 30% crit rate and a 3.4 speed weapon, 2H Frost currently gets about 1 KM proc per six swings -- or about 3 PPM. With two 1.5 speed weapons, DW gets about 13 PPM. Bringing KM to 5 PPM gives 2H 5 PPM (a buff) and DW 10 PPM (a nerf). Note that haste affects the number of crits per minute and PPM procs equally, so it doesn't effect this result.
I think you mean that 2H Frost will still receive less benefit from KM than DW. This is true. However, Blizzard has already stated that some talents should not benefit both specs (2H or DW) equally. The fact is DW *requires* a high amount of KM procs (more than 2H specs) to be competitive -- the problem is they're currently getting too many. But that doesn't mean 2H and DW should get the same number of PPM... more procs is the main benefit DW specs get for giving up hard hitting strikes.
i use deathstrike glyph, oblit glyph, and the 3rd one is my toss up atm i have deathanddecay on, but thats just there for the moment.
and yea i switch to the priority but it just seems i end up as u said standing around waiting on runes and no runic power, mind u i haven't done this in a raid yet, im just trying the test dummys at ebon hold, but i hit blood tap, IT, Blood strike, Oblit, oblit, thats netting me 1 frost strike, then im standing around waiting on runes. does that rotation repeat itself exactly? thats what im attempting to do.
Your problem is that you are trying to repeat the first step of a two part rotation. The reason you blood tap is to immediately turn a blood rune into a death rune, allowing you to cast IT in the same rotation as two OB. The part where you are getting lost is the BS in that rotation. In order to make this work you need to spec the talent to have that blood rune turn to a death rune.
Your other problem is that you are trying to duplicate this rotation. Try switching the second part to OB, IT, OB, BS. This will turn over one more Death rune (like the one you had to bloodtap for) and allow you to repeat the two part cycle over and over again. If you mess it up, start over and use you blood tap again to get it going.
If you try to skip steps with this you will just be "sitting around waiting on runes to use"
There was also an alternate rotion recomended a few pages back for people that the timing wasn't working for. It opened with two OB , then maybe rotated IT and BS each alternate rotation (?) you would have to re-read to make sure.
Also, make sure you don't spec bloods rune mastery, as this will muddle your rotation (bug possibly) because it screws with tour frost rune mastery.
Five PPM would be a nerf to DW and a buff to 2H Frost.
Assuming a 30% crit rate and a 3.4 speed weapon, 2H Frost currently gets about 1 KM proc per six swings -- or about 3 PPM. With two 1.5 speed weapons, DW gets about 13 PPM. Bringing KM to 5 PPM gives 2H 5 PPM (a buff) and DW 10 PPM (a nerf). Note that haste affects the number of crits per minute and PPM procs equally, so it doesn't effect this result.
.
Well, Maybe I don't get PPM mechanics right but I thought it just gives you a maximum of procs in a minute, not more chances to proc it. 5PPM doesn't guarantee that you get 5 procs in a minute.
So if KM mechanic remains the same but gets a 5 PPM cap, you would just get your 3 KM procs in with your 2 hander since you haven't reached the cap of 5. It also prevents you to be extremely lucky and get 6 or more KM procs in a minute, which could even be considered as a nerf if you play with lots of haste and a high crit rate.
It would, however, still nerf DW that is true.
And if they set, has Feorthas suggests, a ala Windfury cd mechanic with a cooldown longer than your swing timer (5 seconds for exemple) , then it would be a nerf for 2 handers. And it would impact them harder since you would have to wait more time to get your next white strike, and thus a chance to proc KM, than with two faster 1h.
Currently in a normal raid encounter I have more RP than I can ever use without delaying my rotation. I have 4pc, + Glyph of IT, so with the PSless rotation and in blood presence I can never seem to dump enough of it. I'm not sure if this is just a problem on my end, but I'm pretty confident in my ability to execute my rotations. With the upcoming change to Glyph of Frost Strike I know I'll just have even more wasted RP. As mentioned before, excess RP isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I've been wondering if there was something I could do about it.
I was considering dropping the 2 talent points in Chill of the Grave and placing them somewhere else, such as Icy Reach. The extra 10 yard range could be of benefit in some situations. If not Icy Reach, a shorter CD on DnD would be nice for encounters like OS with drakes up to help with adds. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on this.
My real concern is would dropping the 2 points from Chill of the Grave reverse my situation and take me from having excess RP to never having enough?
My suggestion would be to lose the IT glyph, you are nerfing your IT 10% for RP you are not able to use. Replace this with the BS glyph and you will be trading -damage for +damage, so you are garunteed a non-situational, permanant dps increase. This is also cheaper (probably) than respeccing, and easily reversable. I have also seen it suggested on here that the FF is counting as a snare on Boss dummies, a conformation of that would be nice, and make the BS glyph even more desireable.
That would actually be good to test. I've been debating what kind of rotation is overall superior, a FS based rotation where you use 3 frost strikes as long as FF is up despite runes coming off colldown or a rune rotation where you use runes the second they come off cooldown despite having the RP to frost strike.
You know it's still true that when your runes come off cooldown and you wait one GCD to use them, they'll refresh in 8 seconds, therefore when your runes come off CD, you can go for a Frost Strike before using them and you're not wasting any Rune Refresh time.
Hope this helps, tho it might be really hard to master.
How hard is it to master, "do rotation, hit FS as many times as you can, repeat"?
But yes, if you're having problems with the order of which your runes come back up with the IT OB BS OB rotation, then just front load the OB and try OB OB (IT BS), "the () means you rotate each pass." I also substitute HB for OB whenever KM procs are up.
Well, Maybe I don't get PPM mechanics right but I thought it just gives you a maximum of procs in a minute, not more chances to proc it. 5PPM doesn't guarantee that you get 5 procs in a minute.
So if KM mechanic remains the same but gets a 5 PPM cap, you would just get your 3 KM procs in with your 2 hander since you haven't reached the cap of 5. It also prevents you to be extremely lucky and get 6 or more KM procs in a minute, which could even be considered as a nerf if you play with lots of haste and a high crit rate.
It would, however, still nerf DW that is true.
This is not how PPM works AT ALL. PPM is essentially a variable rate proc that scales with weapon speed. For example:
If it's 6 PPM procced by autoattacks, and you attack with:
1.0 weapon speed, that's 60 swings per minute so each swing has a 10% chance to proc, no matter how much haste you have.
2.0 weapon speed, that's 30 swings per minute so each swing has a 20% chance to proc, no matte how much haste you have.
It has NOTHING to do with a cap on the number of procs per minute you can get. So my reasoning stands: With reasonable gear assumptions, 5PPM KM would be a straight up buff to 2H frost *and* a nerf to DW.
After some personal tests between different rotations, I find that I usually gain more dps when I keep frost strikes and rime procs seperate from my rune rotation. Everytime I tried to "fill in the gaps" that sometimes occur between runes because of a dodge or miss the previous rotation, it would push back the next rotation so that I was either losing a frost rune when unbreakable armor comes off cooldown or wait and do it next rotation, further destablizing my dps.
So I am gonna continue to keep my normal rotation of using all my RP after I use my runes. Three frost strikes help a lot in bringing my rune rotation back in line if I had a dodge the previous rotation and also ensures that I never accidentally use a frost rune for unbreakable armor.
I think I should have clarified the intention behind my post more.
5 PPM for 2h is still very lack luster for a 5 pt talent, considering that Frost Strike already has a fairly high crit rate (Frost Strike is where most of the KM procs will inevitably go).
I should have put "solid" buff to KM for 2h. Something in the ~8 PPM range would make it much more worth while.
If they change it to a PPM, it probably won't be 5 points anymore. Doesn't make any sense. How can you make it a PPM talent that scales with more points.
If they intend to change Killing Machine to nerf DW, they should just consider keeping it mostly the same but not affecting Icy Touch. I believe Frost is one of the weakest trees and seeing any nerf to KM would hurt it too much unless other buffs were added in the tree to make up for it (something deeper in frost so DW can't grab it).
If they intend to change Killing Machine to nerf DW, they should just consider keeping it mostly the same but not affecting Icy Touch. I believe Frost is one of the weakest trees and seeing any nerf to KM would hurt it too much unless other buffs were added in the tree to make up for it (something deeper in frost so DW can't grab it).
While frost may be the weakest spec right now (I disagree, but I have no evidence to support my claim so I won't argue), it scales the best of all the specs from what our math can tell at this point. Our spells don't scale nearly as well as our weapon-based abilities.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
If they intend to change Killing Machine to nerf DW, they should just consider keeping it mostly the same but not affecting Icy Touch. I believe Frost is one of the weakest trees and seeing any nerf to KM would hurt it too much unless other buffs were added in the tree to make up for it (something deeper in frost so DW can't grab it).
Any reasonable PPM system for Killing Machine would be a direct buff to 2H frost and a direct nerf to DW. Why is this so difficult to understand? Also, DW requires KM to be competitive period, and there are DW specs that take as many as 44 points in Frost... so DW would find a way to get KM regardless of where in the tree you put it. Burying it deeper in Frost to prevent DW from taking it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.
To repeat: Unless the number of procs per minute chosen for the "new" KM is absurdly low, any reasonable PPM system for KM will be a buff to 2H frost. The sky is not falling.
While frost may be the weakest spec right now (I disagree, but I have no evidence to support my claim so I won't argue), it scales the best of all the specs from what our math can tell at this point. Our spells don't scale nearly as well as our weapon-based abilities.
I agree that frost is the weakest spec at the moment; however, based on what I'm seeing in the raids I've been on, the 'problem' isn't insurmountable at all. Without a single piece of raid gear on, I'm doing 2.5-3k single target dps (see armory for specifics) in melée friendly fights, so I'm rather happy with where I stand right now.
Also, killing machine needs to be, dare I say it, buffed. Change it to a 3 point talent for 11/22/33% chance to proc on all melée attacks, not just white swings, and go from there. Maybe add a passive bonus like 1/2/3% crit or armor pen for all physical attacks as well. It yields a little over 93 dps right now whereas black ice is worth nearly twice as much--171.4 dps--and is in a lower tier (both numbers from the optimal 2h rotation).
Speaking of dps numbers, the new sheet is about to see the light of day; I'll probably put it up for download (and on google docs, but that version will be fugly compared to the xls) before 7p EST tonight!
Here are some new things I've discovered:
-Vot3W is not worth the points stolen from Tundra Stalker (for DPS).
-edit: false alarm with 3/2 being better than 3/3 with a spec swap; I thought Bloody Vengeance was a tier lower than it really is :-/ (I mostly operate from my somewhat crappy memory during the day as it takes forever to load a talent calculator over a semi-bad Edge (cell) connection).
The interface is going to be the same--open chacacter sheet, put stats into excel (ditto with talents)--but there are more toggles and talents that, you know, do stuff .
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/08/09 at 4:13 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
I don't see how there would be much of a diff between 23/48 and 22/49... you're trading Vot3W for TStalker... they're roughly the same. You get 1 more expertise and 2% str/stam from Vot3W while you get 2% ability damage with TStalker. It's a wash imo.
01/06/09, 12:59 PM
.
Similar Threads
