Also the I am not sure the new gargoyle is worth the point. It was under performing 2 FS's per rotation when I did test it out. In which case that point could be used elsewhere.
Much-needed point in Subversion, maybe? Also, are you taking into account bloodlust/trinket stacking on the gargoyle?
Another thought: current frost and DW parses suggest that two ITs > one HB, especially when you consider runic power. Might be worth comparing the rotation you posted vs the 0/32/39 rotation: IT-PS-BS-BS-HB / IT-PS-IT-IT-HB (or some variant using Epidemic and an extra HB).
Funny thing about that UA Macro, sometimes you'll hit it and a blood rune will turn into a death rune and refresh... and your other death rune will refresh. So you get to hit your macro then do another BS. Just a neat perk.
Now, everyone is comparing HB crits to OB crits. Sure, HB hits harder when it crits. Whenever KM procs and i can, i replace OB with HB. Non-crit, HB hits for a little bit more than OB, sure. But compare the crit rates. I have 2 piece T7, so my OB has ~58% chance to crit unbuffed... HB... 20%. Raid buffed, OB goes up to ~70% or more... HB... 23%. Now sure, HB hits and crits for more than OB, but OB crits 2/3 of the time and HB crits 1/5 of the time. Long story short, HB puts up big pretty numbers and you should of course watch for your KM procs, even as 2h frost... but OB is higher avg dps.
Another thing is, Gargoyle isn't terribly good for frost, because FS is just better. Why would i want to do less of an attack that is composing 20+% of my dps? FS can't be dodged/parried/OR KILLED.
Has anyone checked to see how much of an improvement there is to their dps by adding the FS glyph to our selection? Without the 4Piece T7 bonus, I still get ~79 RP per rotation (because of butchery), so I'm almost guaranteed to get 5 FS (with FS glyph) in every 20 seconds now, whereas I usually have to play a few tricks to get enough RP to do 4 (without FS glyph) every 20 seconds currently. I can only assume that this glyph will make it even more important to stick to a short rotation without PS.
I got my Death Bite the other day and my dps has skyrocketed since. I went from pushing 26-2800 (single target) to easily pushing 32-3600 dps. Any patchwerk attempt I had AotD up, i was getting over 4k easily enough. I find that my ghoul (non perma) is perfectly satisfactory on most bosses to help me stay ahead of all the unholy dks in my 25man (had 6 last night). Of course, was still being beat out by the DW dk, but i was a lot closer to him than the unholy dks. If i could get a Sigil of Awareness, i'd be set.
Now, everyone is comparing HB crits to OB crits. Sure, HB hits harder when it crits. Whenever KM procs and i can, i replace OB with HB. Non-crit, HB hits for a little bit more than OB, sure. But compare the crit rates. I have 2 piece T7, so my OB has ~58% chance to crit unbuffed... HB... 20%. Raid buffed, OB goes up to ~70% or more... HB... 23%. Now sure, HB hits and crits for more than OB, but OB crits 2/3 of the time and HB crits 1/5 of the time. Long story short, HB puts up big pretty numbers and you should of course watch for your KM procs, even as 2h frost... but OB is higher avg dps.
I'm going to assume that you don't raid with a warrior or rogue present to Sunder/Expose and you're missing [Sigil of Awareness], because this has never been the case in any 10 or 25 man I have done (though it's certainly the case on a target dummy or most 5-mans). OB hits *MUCH* harder for me in a raid setting versus a single target.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I have been reading this thread regurarly and I haven't seen much talk about going more into Blood that the original 20 points 20/50. I am currently specced 27/44. My WoWebstats are from the first night I attempted this build in a raid. Sorry about no patchwerk numbers since I got gibbed from a nasty hateful.
Pros versus 20/50
--Increased BS DMG (20% base dmg increase & 40% increase to attack bonus from diseases)
-6% Increase physical dmg (Obl, white dmg)
-Plus 4% more Str
Cons versus 20/50
-1 less exp
-No UA
-10% dmg loss to frost spells (IT, FS, OBL, HB)
I used single disease rotation.
I do not think I am gaining the full potential since I am still running around with blues and AP pieces I need to trade for STR for the full benefit of VoTW. The increased dmg to my white dmg seems like a decent trade off on 10% loss to FS and 4% to Obl which are my biggest Frost attacks. White dmg seems to be so big for me as a 2h frosty and the closer I get to Exp cap, I can only see my dmg going up. With some more gear conversions to STR, this build may prove to be a better trade-off from 20/50. My personal anecdote is that this build seems to yield me more DPS than 20/50 but I think when i get my 4pc bonus, I might be forced to go back to 20/50 since FS will be a higher percentage of my DPS.
You are correct. I have to do 10man reject naxx runs with friends in the guild (because we aren't "raiders") and have to pug 25man naxx. I've been lucky to get the gear i currently have, but without the sigil it will be a while before it starts to shine.
Sono, going 27/44 is only good if you don't raid with a hunter or shaman that gives the 10% attk pwr bonus. If you don't raid/run heroics with either, then it's very good. If you do run with one, then you're not getting the most out of your abilities. But i just now checked that you had points in bloody vengeance instead of abominable strength. With this said, you're as you said, trading 10% to all your yellow damage (75% of your dps) for 20% more damage with BS (6% of my dps usually), 6% more physical damage, after it stacks, for OB BS and melee (combined 50% of my dps), and 4% strength and 1 expertise less than 21/50. Sorry dawg, that math just doesn't seem to pan out. You're trading 7.5% of your dps for a 4.2% bonus and 4% strength (which is not going to get you 3.3%). If you had spec'd into Abominable Might to act as a walking raid buff, then that's another story.
How do you OB twice in a row without using BT during the first rotation? IT and BS would leave you with BUUF available - enough for one OB but not two. Using BT and UA at that point would agani leave you with an unholy rune left.
You need to be a little more creative before asking that, but I will answer anyhow.
Naturally you cannot do BT then that rotation with UA in it because of the cooldown, but the cooldown is only 1 minute. This leaves you with 2 options to get the needed death runes for the normal rotations.
First way: Start off the fight with the normal BT, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS dump rotation, then after the cooldown on BT has come around, use the rotation that I posted before. Again, ensure that you do not spam the macro when you have a frost rune up or you will mess it up on the rotation after. Use all your runes first, then the macro, then RP dump.
The second way is to do a IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, UA macro, FS dump rotation for the FIRST ROTATION ONLY! Every rotation after will go back the the normal PS-less rotation. This will allow you to have the needed death runes for the folllowing rotations and still have UA up for them as well.
You need to be a little more creative before asking that, but I will answer anyhow.
Naturally you cannot do BT then that rotation with UA in it because of the cooldown, but the cooldown is only 1 minute. This leaves you with 2 options to get the needed death runes for the normal rotations.
First way: Start off the fight with the normal BT, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS dump rotation, then after the cooldown on BT has come around, use the rotation that I posted before. Again, ensure that you do not spam the macro when you have a frost rune up or you will mess it up on the rotation after. Use all your runes first, then the macro, then RP dump.
The second way is to do a IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, UA macro, FS dump rotation for the FIRST ROTATION ONLY! Every rotation after will go back the the normal PS-less rotation. This will allow you to have the needed death runes for the folllowing rotations and still have UA up for them as well.
That is what I thought. I had been attempting the first rotation, but was doing it after the RP dump - moving it before makes sense and ensures not screwing things up. I was hoping that someone had figured out a creative way to get it in right at the start of a fight (to get an extra use out of it in shorter fights) and get two OB in. I'll have to do some testing at my gear level to see if that extra use outweighs two OB to start.
I actually just tested 44/27 using Blood Presence BT--->IT, HB, HB, BS Dump rotation on the PTR and I was going up over 3.1k on the boss target dummy, no gargoyle just Ghoul. With IT, Ghoul and FS Glyphs. That might end up trumping OB rotations depending on what happens with killing machine.
You have to remember that the Dummy has armor and any rotaiton that uses mostly spells will seem to do a lot more DPS, however in a 'real' raid the boss will be sundered or have expose armor up and your mele attacks will start doing quite a bit more damage.
This is wierd to me... perhaps the OP was wrong? I can't imagine where you get 225% from.
The way the talent is worded, it's SUPPOSED to be 200% + 45% = 245%. If it didn't work right with runic focus, it would be 150 + 45 = 195%, which we all know isn't the case. Even if it was 1.5*1.45, it would still be 217.5%, which is the closest to the OPs 225%.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
This is wierd to me... perhaps the OP was wrong? I can't imagine where you get 225% from.
The way the talent is worded, it's SUPPOSED to be 200% + 45% = 245%. If it didn't work right with runic focus, it would be 150 + 45 = 195%, which we all know isn't the case. Even if it was 1.5*1.45, it would still be 217.5%, which is the closest to the OPs 225%.
I didn't actually use the correct number in the OP, you're right.
However the correct total multiplier (as to what it actually operates at) is 222.5% and not 225%.
What is happening is that GoG is multiplicative instead of additive but is working off the .5 spell crit modifier, or adding .225 (.5 x .45) to crit damage. This is then just added to the actual "base" 2.0 HB crit damage modifier (because of Runic Focus) for a total of 222.5% crit damage. Testing matches the 222.5% crit multiplier result.
Has anyone checked to see if Oblit glyph is doing +20% weapon damage or just a straight +20% overall damage? Simply curious if I should expect any sort of dps increase after the patch other than IT glyph and FS glyph.
Frost/Unholy with gargoyle was not competative pre 3.0.8 why should it be better when gargoyle-dps gets nurfed by about 60%? Especially now when the new FS Glyph will make FS even better the before?
I dont understand the whole Idea of making an OB-less deep frost built since OB is by far the strongest skill frost brings. I generally think blood supports the deep frost builts alot better then anything unholy can provide, change of necrosis doesnt change anything as far as ich can see.
The main advantage I can see with a frost/unholy build is how it can change your rotations. You can get increased disease duration and 40 RP on an Obliterate with the right gear/spec (assuming dirge and chill of the grave stack with 4pc T7). Longer disease duration opens up the possibility of more oblits in a cycle, but you lose chances at a rime proc from renewing your frost fever. It frees up a few GCDs having one two-rune ability generating that much RP.
You'd have to run a pretty complicated sim to prove it out one way or the other, but blood subspec has more crit and AP, so it probably pulls ahead of the cycle changes + extra auto-attack damage on BCB and Necrosis.
PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS
PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> FS
OR
(Blood tap on the opening rotation for a death rune)
IT -> OB -> OB -> BS -> FS
IT -> OB -> BS -> OB -> FS
For us lowly heroic-5 runners, an optimal AoE rotation could prove quite useful.
I know 3.0.8 will dumb that down pretty hard, but what is the best current possible rotation ? What's the place of DnD in a frost sequence ?
Opening with IT -> Pest -> HB leaves you with BU. So use BB then focus dump while waiting HB's cooldown+F for another HB ?
Opening with DnD -> IT -> Pest leaves you with U. So DnD -> IT -> Pest -> BT+HB ? Then what?
You need to be a little more creative before asking that, but I will answer anyhow.
Naturally you cannot do BT then that rotation with UA in it because of the cooldown, but the cooldown is only 1 minute. This leaves you with 2 options to get the needed death runes for the normal rotations.
First way: Start off the fight with the normal BT, IT, BS, OB, OB, FS dump rotation, then after the cooldown on BT has come around, use the rotation that I posted before. Again, ensure that you do not spam the macro when you have a frost rune up or you will mess it up on the rotation after. Use all your runes first, then the macro, then RP dump.
The second way is to do a IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, UA macro, FS dump rotation for the FIRST ROTATION ONLY! Every rotation after will go back the the normal PS-less rotation. This will allow you to have the needed death runes for the folllowing rotations and still have UA up for them as well.
I dont know if anyone else as thought of this so far and i have read thought about 15 pages but my memory is not all that great for direct quotes or exact things but has anyone else come up with this "3rd" method i will call it of making the OBx2 rotation, it from my testing it seams to have a slightly different spacing over all but it gets you 20RP in the first rotation and might help with the push back issues that are discussed a few pages ago i dont know as i haven't really had to deal with that problem.IT,BS,OB,BT,BS,OB,FS then rather then IT,OB,OB,BS,dump its IT,FS,OB,OB,BS,dump...
I'm going to assume that you don't raid with a warrior or rogue present to Sunder/Expose and you're missing [Sigil of Awareness], because this has never been the case in any 10 or 25 man I have done (though it's certainly the case on a target dummy or most 5-mans). OB hits *MUCH* harder for me in a raid setting versus a single target.
That's true, without Impurity. Read what I posted a page ago. WMO parses seem to show that HB with Impurity hits harder than glyphed, sigil'd Oblit. This is on Patchwerk, with armor debuffs and whatever else. Remember that HB gets a big boost from raid buffs too, because of Ebon Plague and its bastard moonkin/warlock cousins.
That's true, without Impurity. Read what I posted a page ago. WMO parses seem to show that HB with Impurity hits harder than glyphed, sigil'd Oblit. This is on Patchwerk, with armor debuffs and whatever else. Remember that HB gets a big boost from raid buffs too, because of Ebon Plague and its bastard moonkin/warlock cousins.
We do not deny that Howling Blast may hit harder and crit harder. Our point is that Obliterate crits a metric fuckton (approx 2 English fucktons) more often.
If an ability hits for 125 and crits for 225% at a rate of 25% and another hits for 100 and crits for 245% at a rate of near 50%, which are you going to use? If you picked the latter, you picked a really weak-hitting obliterate doing 5% more damage on average despite it's initial, 20% lower output. The in-game damage delta is nowhere near as large but the crit difference is very close to the same (and the crit modifiers are correct as well).
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
We do not deny that Howling Blast may hit harder and crit harder. Our point is that Obliterate crits a metric fuckton (approx 2 English fucktons) more often.
If an ability hits for 125 and crits for 225% at a rate of 25% and another hits for 100 and crits for 245% at a rate of near 50%, which are you going to use? If you picked the latter, you picked a really weak-hitting obliterate doing 5% more damage on average despite it's initial, 20% lower output. The in-game damage delta is nowhere near as large but the crit difference is very close to the same (and the crit modifiers are correct as well).
From my testing im seeing at 223% which is even worse but thats only over about 200 crits and but it seems someone else was getting that value for HB or about that.
Howling blast is for when killing machine is up in that point of your rotation or there are multiple mobs, obliterate does higher, more consistent damage. Overall that is what you want to do, it may be different on a case by case basis if you have great gear but a poor weapon or visa versa.
I use ELKbuffbars to throw the killing machine proc right where I can see it and change between the two if its needed.
Currently specced 27/44/0 2h spec, no impurity so I don't do the above anymore, but I was previously a frost/unholy build, I really cant understate how great having a 4ish k heal every 40 seconds on demand is, I'm going to miss it when new content comes out and I have to spec for max damage.
Post patch when you spec for "max damage" are you implying something other then 17/50/0(+4)? Are you thinking that you'll spec into unholy for something? Necrosis is getting a buff and all, but I don't see that being worth 5% crit and bladed armor. With FS glyph, gargoyle would be a horrible choice. Now, if you're saying that you're going to switch to DW, that's another story. There's too many changes/problems that they still have to address, so the patch is going to take a while, so now would probably be the time to abuse DW.
Well I probably wont be specing very differently as current raids really don't have much of a DPS requirement spare the achievements, but you are right, the next patch should be a fair buff for frost, bcb and the new ghoul glyph don't do enough for a 2h subspec of unholy right now. I'm more interested in where blood ends up with new heart strike and a longer lasting 51 pointer.
Howling blast is for when killing machine is up in that point of your rotation or there are multiple mobs, obliterate does higher, more consistent damage. Overall that is what you want to do, it may be different on a case by case basis if you have great gear but a poor weapon or visa versa.
I use ELKbuffbars to throw the killing machine proc right where I can see it and change between the two if its needed.
Currently specced 27/44/0 2h spec, no impurity so I don't do the above anymore, but I was previously a frost/unholy build, I really cant understate how great having a 4ish k heal every 40 seconds on demand is, I'm going to miss it when new content comes out and I have to spec for max damage.
Teeechnically, Killing Machine is for Frost Strike as it also crits for 245% (seen northward of 8k crits so far) but if there's more than one mob, you better believe I'm stockpiling that RP to wait on HB, even if it results in an overflow .
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
Would anyone care to enlighten me why 27/44/0 is accepted as an alternative to 17/50/0 (+4)?
Tundra Stalker turns out to be a 10% damage increase with near 100% uptime, not including the expertise.
The points in Blood that you gain are roughly 33% more damage on an ability that makes up less than 10% of our total damage along with 6% more strength which, let's face it, is not that much. I run around 1000 strength raid buffed, 6% of that is about 60 strength, or 120 attack power. In what world is 3.5% (being generous here) damage and 120 attack power better than a flat 10% damage increase?
If your reasoning is so you can pick up Abomination's Might because you have no enhance shaman, and for that reason alone, then I can understand the spec. Otherwise... I don't see how the damage is made up, I know Strength is our best stat (past hit cap) but you cant compare that to a flat % damage increase.
One partial answer is because Tundra Stalker only increases spell and ability damage... so autoattack, ghoul, etc. are not affected by it. It's not a flat 10% damage increase like, say, Blood Gorged is. So Tundra Stalker increases all spell and ability damage by 10%, but VotTW grants 6% strength, which affects everything. No, they are not equal, but they are just a bit closer than you assume.
01/12/09, 11:03 AM
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