I'm not big into crunshing the numbers (still new to frost). However did we take into account the 9% missrate (having 8% hit without a draenei/shadow in your raid) of icy touch, making it necessary to modify the roation from time to time.
In addition to maximize the number of Icy Touchs and Frost Strike you have to switch to Unholy Presence (as mentioned before). Did we calculate the damage loss by not beeing in Blood Presence as well?
Finally did we take armor reducing abilities into consideration (fearie fire, sunder armor) or has Obliterates damage been calculated before armor reduction?
Dude the hit cap for 2h'ers is 8%, how do you not know this yet? It's been said numerous times in every single DK (melee) thread in the EJ forums...Seriously.
How about you get some reading comprehension before you lash out at others?
IT is a spell, thus has a 17% miss rate, how do you not know this yet? It's been said numerous times in every single DK thread in the EJ forums...Seriously.
Back on topic:
Ruiz, 8% melee hit is not 8% spell hit because you need less rating for 1% of spell hit.
Don't know the exact conversion, but on my DK 8% melee hit is 10% spell hit.
Dude the hit cap for 2h'ers is 8%, how do you not know this yet? It's been said numerous times in every single DK (melee) thread in the EJ forums...Seriously.
Read his post more clearly; these aren't the Blizz forums.
Do not post unless you have at least napkin math to back up your claims; we really don't care if you can't manage to push a total of four buttons in a slightly changing order over the span of 10 seconds, resulting in some ludicrous IT spam rotation being better than the accepted current best rotation--accepted because there is a good amount of math backing it up. The rotations I have listed below are the current BEST rotations, pre and post 3.0.8, and will remain the best until someone can at least propose a rotation that results in ~11 Obliterates worth of strike damage and another 1.5 of IT/FF damage (3.0.8).
Pre-3.0.8:
IT BS OB FS OB DMP
Post-3.0.8:
IT BS FS OB FS OB DMP
P.S. If you don't have a strong enough background in math to figure out whether your rotation is better or not, use one of the frost spreadsheets or sims that are available; at least a few allow for custom rotations so you can simply rip out what's there and drop your rotation in to get a near instant result! There really is no excuse to not at least attempt to do your due diligence before posting your omg awesome dps spec or rotation; in fact, posting your new kickass spec without a good reason is against the EJ rules--posting new and awesome rotations should be no different. Just don't do it unless you're somewhat convinced that it really is noticably better.
P.P.S. I finally got relative worth of additional state working on my new sheet again; 51 item points worth of $Stat (approx 10 str/agi) are worth the following:
Additionally, my Patchwerk DPS numbers are within 50 DPS of my raid buffed predicted values in the sheet (~3350 vs 3400) so this is very very accurate, which makes me downright ecstatic .
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/20/09 at 2:16 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
In terms of spell hit, problem with this spec is that you don't have virulence, which adds 3% spell hit, therefore with Drainei and with Misery applied, you need 17% - 3% - 1% = 13% spell hit. That would be 26.23 x 13 = 341 hit rating to be spell capped, which is way above the meele hit cap. Again, I wouldn't go into deep math, but from what I've seen I'd assume that the extra 111hit rating (341 - 230) wouldn't really gain you much DPS compared to other stats like crit/haste (assume everyone is Exp capped as it's very easy to achieve with the current gear). Or maybe it would. We can really only see the diffrence from WWS parses after the patch. I'll run Naxx25 with the new spec after patch to compare. I think that the main problem with IT missing is not the lost GCD, but lost Death rune, which would be almost impossible to theorycraft, so maybe really this spec would need 341 hit rating (again not that difficult to achieve).
I am certainly liking the idea of using Death Runes for additional Icy Touches instead of Obliterates. You generate a boat load more RP, and if you stick yourself into Unholy Presence, you might be able to utilize that extra time generated by the quicker GCD's and extra RP (with Frost Strikes). Add in the new, low RP cost of FS... if you can keep yourself in the GCD at all times with Unholy Presence (constantly using abilities), this could be a very, very powerful Frost spec with the majority of damage coming from Icy Touch and Frost Strike.
I'll see what I can come up with as far as the timing is concerned. If there is significant dead time (where you're not in a GCD), it will continue to suffer from the same consequences that Unholy Presence does currently anyway.
P.P.S. I finally got relative worth of additional state working on my new sheet again; 51 item points worth of $Stat (approx 10 str/agi) are worth the following:
Additionally, my Patchwerk DPS numbers are within 50 DPS of my raid buffed predicted values in the sheet (~3350 vs 3400) so this is very very accurate, which makes me downright ecstatic .
Question about these numbers. You say this is the relative value of 51 item points worth of stat, but doesn't the itemization cost of a stat increase as the amount of points on one item increases? For example, 50 points of STR on one item costs more than double the item point cost of 25 points of STR on the same item. Granted, I don't know as much about EP values and item points as I'd like, but I'm not understanding how hit rating before cap can be less valuable than strength, for example. More an idle curiosity about the math behind these numbers than anything really.
@ Veala: I took that into consideration; 10 str costs something like 51.2 points so I'll just change to that, even though it's a little bit more confusing.
---
Back to the IT spam rotation for the final time (again. Or again again depending on how many times it has come up previously)--I dug into the backend of my sheet, generated some numbers, and came up with a rotation that is 250-400 dps lower than the current best. I'd ask a bit more vehemently but the internets ate my post about an hour ago and I don't feel likke typing it up again.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
for 2h frost builds that focus on OB as their main UF attack, i think subversion is too good to pass out, 9% crit for 3 points in the first tier... this is reachable by almost any spec; there has to be a way to include it in a common 2h frost build as OB can reach ridiculous high crit %, benefiting from guilr of gorefiend.
Do the math
subversion 9%
annihilation 3%
rime 15%
2 piece bonus 5%
total-----------32% extra crit to obliterate
i need to run some more tests and thinking but i might get something going on.
for 2h frost builds that focus on OB as their main UF attack, i think subversion is too good to pass out, 9% crit for 3 points in the first tier... this is reachable by almost any spec; there has to be a way to include it in a common 2h frost build as OB can reach ridiculous high crit %, benefiting from guilr of gorefiend.
Do the math
subversion 9%
annihilation 3%
rime 15%
2 piece bonus 5%
total-----------32% extra crit to obliterate
i need to run some more tests and thinking but i might get something going on.
In order to get subversion, you would have to sacrifice a permanent ghoul (a good 600+ dps) and at least 2 points in impurity, or 15% more crit damage from guile of gorefiend when obliterate crits. Neither of these seem like its worth it, even though the 9% crit is certainly nice.
This is compared to the 0/44/27 build I'm looking at for 3.0.8.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Permanent ghoul is great on fights like Patchwerk where he should never be hit, but on any fight with an aoe mechanic or raid damage mechanic such as Sapph or Gluth or Sarth, the value goes down without NotD to help them survive. Same can be said about gargoyle, on certain cases the ability is completely wasted.
Personally I think the 3/50/18 spec using the blood tapped Obliterate x 4 rotation beats out all the other Frost 2h specs. You're on the right track with the 3 in subversion in my opinion.
Now my strongest attack is Obliterate that averages 6k crit, Howling blast is at 5500, and my Frost Strike is about 5k. Anyone else getting numbers simular to these? I think I might be better off getting Sigil of the Frozen Conscience instead of using Sigil of Haunted Dreams since I dont use BS as often as the other abilities (so then it wouldnt proc as often).
In order to get subversion, you would have to sacrifice a permanent ghoul (a good 600+ dps) and at least 2 points in impurity, or 15% more crit damage from guile of gorefiend when obliterate crits. Neither of these seem like its worth it, even though the 9% crit is certainly nice.
This is compared to the 0/44/27 build I'm looking at for 3.0.8.
Are you sure that nerfed Gargoyle beats UA / Bloodtap? Also is Gargoyle worth the lost dmg from FS generally? I'd doubt it as it's just a bit better than DC for DW...
Now my strongest attack is Obliterate that averages 6k crit, Howling blast is at 5500, and my Frost Strike is about 5k. Anyone else getting numbers simular to these? I think I might be better off getting Sigil of the Frozen Conscience instead of using Sigil of Haunted Dreams since I dont use BS as often as the other abilities (so then it wouldnt proc as often).
Be careful about obliterate right now. Until they fix it, it's not generating any RP, which significantly hurts its value in a rotation especially when you depend on it for frost strike's like a frost build does.
im getting up to 3100dps self buffed on average as opposed to the 2800dps self buffed i was doing before. But then again Sigil of the Frozen Conscience really helps with that too
My rotation remains the same though:
BT,IT,BS,OB,OB,FS dump... repeat
But I didnt know about it not generating rune power but that explains why my rune power isnt growing as rapidly as it should. Thanks for the heads up.
Hope they fix it soon, we can do so much more dps now with the help of Obliterate glyph
Wondering if anyone else has noticed this yet, but it seems HB still has it's 6 second cooldown in effect. If you attempt to use it before 6 seconds have passed it just tells you that the spell isn't ready yet.
Wondering if anyone else has noticed this yet, but it seems HB still has it's 6 second cooldown in effect. If you attempt to use it before 6 seconds have passed it just tells you that the spell isn't ready yet.
GC commented on that already
Howling Blast has a 5 sec cooldown. We added this back on late, so it may not have made the patch notes.
We are hearing some reports that the tooltip is not updating correctly, but if you try to use the ability twice in a row, you will find it will not work. We are investigating the inconsistency.
Hey all? Hows post patch Frost Spec? Been dual wielding and gonna try it in raids tonight, but frost has always been my true love. Whats new with the patch? is PPM KM really as leet as we think?
Some people are reporting that Rime procs also make HB refresh instantly, but I can't get in and test seriously.
I just tested it and this is unfortunately not the case. All it does is make the tooltip light up instantly, because the icon is not looking for the cooldown correctly on live.
Just had an idea about this rotation. I'm wondering how it would work if we were to work a priority system into a normal runes then RP rotation as opposed to simply interweaving the Frost Strikes. For example, you do your normal IT, BS, OB, OB rotation, but if a KM proc occurs at any point in it, you do Frost Strike instead. Obviously the down side is you could potentially mess up your rune cooldowns, but my thinking is that if we're guaranteed 1-2 Frost Strikes at the end of a rotation no matter what, those will effectively "reset" your rune cooldowns for you since they'll delay the beginning of your next rune rotation by 1-2 GCDs. Perhaps just limit yourself to one to two impromptu Frost Strikes per rotation to ensure that you don't find yourself idly waiting for runes. Then if you don't get any KM procs you save all your RP for the end, in the hopes that a KM procs while you're dumping RP.
I'm waiting to do a 10man Naxx right now, but I'm specc'd 21/50/0. I've already noticed that OB runic power gain is bugged. I have chill of the grave and 4pc on, yet I only get 15 RP instead of 30. Anyone else notice this or having an issue with it?
I'm waiting to do a 10man Naxx right now, but I'm specc'd 21/50/0. I've already noticed that OB runic power gain is bugged. I have chill of the grave and 4pc on, yet I only get 15 RP instead of 30. Anyone else notice this or having an issue with it?
It's already reported a few posts up and confirmed as a bug by GC. Hotfix incoming in the next few days
01/20/09, 11:56 AM
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