It is going to have IT, but if I can drop one IT for an additional OB every other rotation, due to having to refresh my diseases less, will the damage of that extra OB be worth it over the 1 chance at 15% rime proc, and 3% crit overall?
But where is the extra unholy or death rune going to come from?
If you start with the standard PS-less rotation, and forgo using IT for an extra oblit, you will end up with a frost rune and a blood rune.
You would have to do a rotation that follows a IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, FS dump -----> OB, OB, OB, FS dump, repeat.
Or you could start off with the PS-less rotation, then interrupt it for the rotation with PS in it.
You could also do the blood tap trick of using 1 or both blood runes then popping BT (not UA) to immediatly respawn a blood rune as a death rune to use in that extra oblit.
It doesn't sound worth it in my opinion, I'd have to see numbers. But I think in practice the numbers will be very close anyhow and may boil down to personal preferance.
It is going to have IT, but if I can drop one IT for an additional OB every other rotation, due to having to refresh my diseases less, will the damage of that extra OB be worth it over the 1 chance at 15% rime proc, and 3% crit overall?
Even if you drop IT, you won't be able to produce an additional Ob every other rotation if you're starting with the standard deep frost rotation (IT Ob Ob BS FSdump) as there's no third unholy or second death rune to pair it with. The non-epidemic rotation is already producing 2 Oblits/10s. To take advantage of Epidemic, you'd have to run something like:
IT PS BS BS Ob FSdump Ob Ob Ob FSDump Repeat (There might be a way to jigger this slightly better, but I don't think so)
So your extra disease duration lets you go from (assuming talents, glyphs, and 20s of Butchery, but no tier bonuses) 2xIT, 4xOb, 2xBS, 138 RP for 4 FSs and an expected .3 Rime Procs, to 1xIT, 1xPS, 2xBS, 4xOb, 123 RP for 3 FS, and .15 expected Rime procs. (This isn't accounting for HoW RP gen, but to do that we'd have to go out to 6 rune cycles to even out with the 30s HoW cd, and I'm too lazy, so I'm just gonna spot the latter the 5 RP it needs and assume 4 FSs/20s for each rotation from here on).
So you're trading 1 IT, 15 RP, .15 Rime, and 3% crit for 1 PS, one Blood Plague duration, and a second disease bonus on 4 Oblits. That's going to vary a bit depending on gear level, but I suspect that the former is probably a larger pool of damage.
eta: a) Mild Confusion types faster than me, says all the same stuff, and sucks for that :P b) I've also omitted the fact your diseases fall off for .5-2 seconds on the long duration rotation I posted, so you're probably missing a tick or so at least off one of your diseases, and the Glacier Rot/Tundra Stalker bonus to the starting move of your next rotation. The alternative is to cut your rotation short and devote the last Oblit's glyphs to refreshing diseases, but I think that will just make the performance worse.
It is going to have IT, but if I can drop one IT for an additional OB every other rotation, due to having to refresh my diseases less, will the damage of that extra OB be worth it over the 1 chance at 15% rime proc, and 3% crit overall?
If you're referring to (14/50/7), by moving those unholy talents over to blood I get (21/50/0), which is a comparison of (18 sec disease) vs. (2% crit, 2% strength and 2 expertise). I believe rime procs are cancelled or ignored anyway, so that doesn't factor in.
I don't think anything relevant to this comparison has been changed in 3.0.8, so it's probably been covered before.
Obliterate isn't generating the appropriate amount of RP currently. (It seems to vary across the board ; I have guildies say it's doing 5, 7, and i've heard it's doing 0. So I don't know.) I've still strangely seen an overall net increase in dps - probably because of the icy touch glyph change - but you guys might want to keep an eye on it. Ghostcrawler says they're aware of it, it was a known bug during the ptr, and they're going to hotfix it "Soon". Your definition of soon may vary.
I believe rime procs are cancelled or ignored anyway, so that doesn't factor in.
I don't think there's any reason to cancel Rime in these builds (the DW-HB builds should be the only ones for which putting HB on cd will muck the rotation). I guess if you've accumulated spare RP over a couple cycles you might have enough to FS three or more times at the end of the cycle and then the HB would start clipping into your rune use, but I think that'd be the only reason to ignore the proc.
I believe this technique translates to a trade of two bloodstrikes for one oblit every minute (+ the extra RP that creates), and removes the partial GCD delay you insert into your rotation when using the BT+UA macro.
Notation
B(D)1 means first blood rune, as a death rune.
The death rune bug
Once triggered, for the duration of your combat your second blood rune will refresh as death regardless of how it's used. The most direct way to demonstrate this is: enter combat vs a dummy, blood strike, and blood tap. The blood strike'd blood rune will be instantly refreshed as a death, and the second blood rune will also be turned into a (bugged) death rune.
Besides BS-BT, I don't know of other methods to activate this bug. I often activate it unintentionally, moments into combat, but I don't know exactly how :<. Using a blood tap to turn it on devalues this entire technique.
The 21/50/0 rotation
With the bug activated, you'll often notice both blood runes refreshing as death. If you continue your rotation with IT-OB-OB-BS, the first blood rune will refresh as blood for your next rotation: B(D)1 was consumed by the second OB and has no reason to refresh as D, and bugged B(D)2 was consumed by the BS and has two reasons to refresh as D.
If you instead use IT-OB-BS-OB, B(D)1 will be consumed by BS and refresh as D, and B(D)2 will be consumed by OB and be refreshed as D because of the bug. I have the T7 bonus, each OB produces 30 RP, and my glyphed FS dump always clips (correctly) into the next rune rotation. IT-OB-BS-OB and IT-OB-OB-BS are interchangable.
If you instead use IT-OB-OB-BT-OB, you're spending your blood tap to trade one BS for one OB. Both blood runes will again come up as D. I can't explain this, but I have observed it for hours.
Immediately following this, you can use IT-OB-OB-UA or IT-OB-UA-OB to trade another BS for UA. Regardless of which you choose, both blood runes will again refresh as death runes, and a moment before B(D)1 completes its cooldown, it will turn red. (this is a bug I've noticed sporradically before, but happens 100% of the time in this situation -- pretty cool).
Obliterate isn't generating the appropriate amount of RP currently. (It seems to vary across the board ; I have guildies say it's doing 5, 7, and i've heard it's doing 0. So I don't know.) I've still strangely seen an overall net increase in dps - probably because of the icy touch glyph change - but you guys might want to keep an eye on it. Ghostcrawler says they're aware of it, it was a known bug during the ptr, and they're going to hotfix it "Soon". Your definition of soon may vary.
As of this morning, OB has been generating the correct amount for me (15 before bonuses). Last night it was generating 0.
Originally Posted by Shutter
I don't think there's any reason to cancel Rime in these builds (the DW-HB builds should be the only ones for which putting HB on cd will muck the rotation). I guess if you've accumulated spare RP over a couple cycles you might have enough to FS three or more times at the end of the cycle and then the HB would start clipping into your rune use, but I think that'd be the only reason to ignore the proc.
I see. Perhaps because of my T7 bonus, my FS dump always clips into my runes, on every rotation. I never use freezing fog.
Last edited by Goetterdaemmerung : 01/21/09 at 8:41 PM.
Although most theorycrafting is being done on single targets, I'm also interested in maximizing AE damage for trash pulls or boss adds. From the FAQ thread:
Originally Posted by Feorthas
-Use the following for multi-target:
--IT (for FF)
--Pest.
--HB spam
--Dump RP / Blood Strike
With the 5 sec. cooldown on HB, you can't really spam it on live. I'm using this for AE packs now (17/54):
-- IT (for FF)
-- PS (for BP)
-- Pest.
1. HB
2. Switch target, Pest.
3. Dump RP
Repeat 1-3.
Might want to switch back to the first target before step 3 so as not to pull aggro from a secondary target and to take advantage of debuffs on the main target, maybe use a hotkey for "target last enemy". Or just tab through the mobs to minimize single target damage, so the raid's AE is more effective. Just be sure to target a new mob that still has some hitpoints left for every pestilence.
I'm not using Blood Boil and I'm refreshing diseases more often than normal because there are often new mobs incoming during trash pulls that you want to debuff as soon as possible, in this case before the next HB. Plus, a mob could die before you can spread the diseases again, wasting a pestilence, and possibly you even have to reapply them. I've often had the problem that diseases were ticking out. The goal is to not reapply diseases with IT/PS, but to refresh them constantly with pestilence.
What you get:
- HB every 5 seconds
- Constant additional AE damage through frost fever, plague fever and pestilence.
Rime proc HBs cause a cooldown on HB, so I'm just doing one Oblit in that case.
What I'm still wondering, however: would it still be worth using D&D at all, before starting the whole rotation perhaps or even in between? It would yield less initial threat, maybe more damage due to AE packs being out of range initially (when warrior tanks charge in, you usually have to run a lot). But I'm not sure.
That new rotation I've been trying is actually pretty nice once you get used it.
The IT, BS, FS, OB, FS, OB, FS dump (rime) is working very nicely. Not only can I get through an entire rotation within the 12 seconds of FF, but I also no longer need the 2 or 3 points in RPM. Very rarely to I even get above 70 RP.
This is counting IT glyph, 4T7 bonus, and FS glyph.
It's also nice because I am not really GCD starved and have time to actually use rime procs. Beyond that, I rarely waste KM procs now on IT or am forced to hold on to a KM proc throughout my rotation because I use it near instantly.
My FS crit rate went up about 6% because of the staggared usage. By that, I mean getting a KM proc and holding it till the end of my rotation and potentially not getting another KM proc in within that time.
That new rotation I've been trying is actually pretty nice once you get used it.
The IT, BS, FS, OB, FS, OB, FS dump (rime) is working very nicely. Not only can I get through an entire rotation within the 12 seconds of FF, but I also no longer need the 2 or 3 points in RPM. Very rarely to I even get above 70 RP.
This is counting IT glyph, 4T7 bonus, and FS glyph.
It's also nice because I am not really GCD starved and have time to actually use rime procs. Beyond that, I rarely waste KM procs now on IT or am forced to hold on to a KM proc throughout my rotation because I use it near instantly.
My FS crit rate went up about 6% because of the staggared usage. By that, I mean getting a KM proc and holding it till the end of my rotation and potentially not getting another KM proc in within that time.
Just a random curiosity, did you try actually working a priority system into your rotation at any point? For example, only use FS if you currently have KM up rather than simply rotating them into a normal rotation. Then if you don't get any KM procs during your rune rotation you have an RP dump cycle to hopefully get some procs during. I wanted to try this tonight but our server was so abysmally laggy that it was impossible to do any kind of meaningful testing, I did good to do 3 skills during one 12 second FF application =p
Ran tonight with 17/54/0, using Unholy Presence. Glyphs are IT/OB/FS, gear is in armory to the left, except that I was actually at 17 total expertise for this kill, as I got the Girdle of Razuvious and the 25 man badge bracers set up after we were done.
Wound up at 5470 DPS on PW with a screwed up pull which forced us to sit out of melee for a few seconds longer than I channeled AotD. Here's a Recount shot: CLICK
Edit: WWS Report is uploaded: CLICK
I was running the IT/OB/OB/BS rotation, but was using UP to see just how many actual GCDs I could fill. One thing that was nice was being able to hit HoW every 20 seconds for the RP gains without interfering with the rotation. I was also trying to manage KM procs to the best of my ability to funnel as many as possible into FS, though honestly I am not quite good enough at it yet that it probably made as much of a difference as I'd have liked.
I tried out the new specs of 3.0.8 tonight on the dummy, used quite a bit of glyphs.
Tried out the 2 blood specs along with 44/27 and 21/50 for frost.
I must say, I was surprised to see that 21/50 resulted in the highest dps for me. Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
21/50 was ~700 dps over the blood specs and ~200 over 44/27.
I used [Betrayer of Humanity] with Crusader for blood and Razorice for frost.
Also used the new [Sigil of the Frozen Conscience] when testing 21/50.
All of the tests were done in UP, I did try out BP a few times but there seemed to be a slight dps loss.
Also note that I have 11% armor pen. I'm the MT here and I picked up the pieces the Unholy and DW dk's didnt want, that means armor pen. If I'm not mistaken ArP benefits blood mostly, therefore the gap must be even higher.
Now the weird thing is the rotation, maybe its been discussed before here but I honestly never heard of it:
OB-OB-BS-BS-FS Dump (you end up with 6 DR) then ITx6 while dumping when KM procs or when nearing full RP.
It's a very simple and straight forward rotation and its a good thing since you can really focus on using FS on KM procs instead of concentrating on the rotation itself. The fact that a great deal of its dmg can be dealt at range is also very nice for in and out fights.
Edit: Fixed link, thanks Goetterdaemmerung, although its a different spec from the one you linked.
I must say, I was surprised to see that 21/50 resulted in the highest dps for me. Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
21/50 was ~700 dps over the blood specs and ~200 over 44/27.
Although most theorycrafting is being done on single targets, I'm also interested in maximizing AE damage for trash pulls or boss adds.
What I'm still wondering, however: would it still be worth using D&D at all, before starting the whole rotation perhaps or even in between? It would yield less initial threat, maybe more damage due to AE packs being out of range initially (when warrior tanks charge in, you usually have to run a lot). But I'm not sure.
I've been doing IT- > Pest -> Deathchill HB -> (blood tap if no rime) -> DnD. HB as soon as the death rune comes off cooldown to catch the tail end of the frost fever and then into the above rotation (though it's rare for mobs to live that long). This was based on my DnD doing about double a non-crit HB over the course of the 10 seconds. With the enormously buffed KM proc rate, I'm not sure it's still worth pushing back that second HB another 5 seconds.
Also, this macro might be useful for some people. It's fairly straightforward but it does make it easier to deathchill on demand:
That new rotation I've been trying is actually pretty nice once you get used it.
The IT, BS, FS, OB, FS, OB, FS dump (rime) is working very nicely. Not only can I get through an entire rotation within the 12 seconds of FF, but I also no longer need the 2 or 3 points in RPM. Very rarely to I even get above 70 RP.
This is counting IT glyph, 4T7 bonus, and FS glyph.
It's also nice because I am not really GCD starved and have time to actually use rime procs. Beyond that, I rarely waste KM procs now on IT or am forced to hold on to a KM proc throughout my rotation because I use it near instantly.
My FS crit rate went up about 6% because of the staggared usage. By that, I mean getting a KM proc and holding it till the end of my rotation and potentially not getting another KM proc in within that time.
I totally agree with you. The rotation works quiet smoothly and allows better use of KM procs. As you wrote you do not have to put any points in RPM, so I might take 2/5 Toughness (I know it's just a small dps increase; maybe I will take Icy Reach instead).
That new rotation I've been trying is actually pretty nice once you get used it.
The IT, BS, FS, OB, FS, OB, FS dump (rime) is working very nicely. Not only can I get through an entire rotation within the 12 seconds of FF, but I also no longer need the 2 or 3 points in RPM. Very rarely to I even get above 70 RP.
This is counting IT glyph, 4T7 bonus, and FS glyph.
It's also nice because I am not really GCD starved and have time to actually use rime procs. Beyond that, I rarely waste KM procs now on IT or am forced to hold on to a KM proc throughout my rotation because I use it near instantly.
My FS crit rate went up about 6% because of the staggared usage. By that, I mean getting a KM proc and holding it till the end of my rotation and potentially not getting another KM proc in within that time.
Yes in Blood Presence. As far as I know only the IT heavy rotation that comes up frequently in this thread uses the Unholy Presence (since it needs more GCD's).
I've been doing IT- > Pest -> Deathchill HB -> (blood tap if no rime) -> DnD. HB as soon as the death rune comes off cooldown to catch the tail end of the frost fever and then into the above rotation (though it's rare for mobs to live that long). This was based on my DnD doing about double a non-crit HB over the course of the 10 seconds. With the enormously buffed KM proc rate, I'm not sure it's still worth pushing back that second HB another 5 seconds.
Also, this macro might be useful for some people. It's fairly straightforward but it does make it easier to deathchill on demand:
I've been doing IT -> Pest -> Deathchill HB -> BB -> HB... repeat
With the amount of huge crits that I've been getting on AoE packs with HB, I just don't think that DnD is worth it (not to mention some packs die before DnD even completes ticking).
That new rotation I've been trying is actually pretty nice once you get used it.
The IT, BS, FS, OB, FS, OB, FS dump (rime) is working very nicely. Not only can I get through an entire rotation within the 12 seconds of FF, but I also no longer need the 2 or 3 points in RPM. Very rarely to I even get above 70 RP.
This is counting IT glyph, 4T7 bonus, and FS glyph.
It's also nice because I am not really GCD starved and have time to actually use rime procs. Beyond that, I rarely waste KM procs now on IT or am forced to hold on to a KM proc throughout my rotation because I use it near instantly.
My FS crit rate went up about 6% because of the staggared usage. By that, I mean getting a KM proc and holding it till the end of my rotation and potentially not getting another KM proc in within that time.
Only issue I'm seeing with this rotation is that it hits the upper limit for GCDs per rune cycle before rime procs, which gives us a few options: we can ignore rime procs, stick to the rotation, and not lose rune time; we can sub the HB in where a FS would go, but we can only do this once before it'll force you to RP cap; or we can delay our rune cycle by a GCD.
Another issue that'll pop up regardless of rime procs (although they do make it occur more frequently, due to their 5 RP) is that every ~9 cycles (sooner, if you have butchery) you'll be left with enough RP for another FS, but this FS will have the same issues the rimed HB will: we can delay our rune cycle for the FS, or we can cap our RP during the cycle.
So, ultimately, what's better? Maintaining rune cooldowns, or delaying them a GCD for an extra frost strike or howling blast?
Math has showed that delaying them for an extra FS or HB would deal more damage.
REKYUKE STFU? Each step must carry the mark of one's blood - No one can hold a candle to me
Roudolf Khametovitch Nouriev
Vôtre score de connard prétentieux est très exactement de 95
If your FS or HB does more damage than the average damage of one rune rotation, then it's better to delay your runes. Since it almost certainly does, there's never a downside to Frost Striking.
I must say, I was surprised to see that 21/50 resulted in the highest dps for me. Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
21/50 was ~700 dps over the blood specs and ~200 over 44/27.
Now the weird thing is the rotation, maybe its been discussed before here but I honestly never heard of it:
OB-OB-BS-BS-FS Dump (you end up with 6 DR) then ITx6 while dumping when KM procs or when nearing full RP.
It's a very simple and straight forward rotation and its a good thing since you can really focus on using FS on KM procs instead of concentrating on the rotation itself. The fact that a great deal of its dmg can be dealt at range is also very nice for in and out fights.
I brought it up a day or two ago, but no one seemed to have any math on it - it definitely did very well in AllOM3's spreadsheet! I think you'll find performance improves if you shove an FS after each Obliterate, to keep the runes from slowing you up, OB,FS,FS,OB,FS,BS,FS,BS,FS - IT, IT, FS, IT, IT, IT, FS,IT,(FS/HB) for example.
I also like the ranged aspect - it's very range-bursty, so any fight where you have to spend short amounts of time at range you can repeat the melee portion of your rotation as needed to let you spend 6 seconds at range doing IT spam.
During a short testing session today I wanted to compare the usefulness of Unbreakable Armor vs Gargoyle for a 44/27 spec. With approximately 3500 AP and using Armageddon I found that 32 RP frost strikes were a better use of RP for me than gargoyle.
I averaged about 2800 damage per frost strike while my gargoyle, if popped without a crusader or mirror proc, dealt a little under 25,000 damage over its duration. The new 30 second gargoyle consumes 290 runic power, or the equivalent of 9 FS. 9 Frost Strikes for me is a touch over 25,000 damage, meaning that unless I pop gargoyle during a trinket proc Im better off not using it. While in a raid situation I always pop the garg when I can take advantage of a mirror proc, with the problems gargs have on certain fights it just doesnt seem worth it to me for this spec.
01/21/09, 7:32 PM
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