Whether an ability scales with weapon damage or ap is irrelevant, unless you have a weapon that's better or worse than the rest of your gear. The rate at which they scale with AP is far more important, and they all three scale at around 30% of AP. The ITx6 rotation has 2xBS, 6xIT, 2xOb, .6xHB and 7.28 Frost Strikes in it, compared to the other rotation's 2xBS, 2xIT, 4xOb, .2HB, and 6 FS (Both in unholy). The net strike APC for rotation1 is .11*2 + .3*6 + .27*2 + .27*7.28 + 0.36*.6 = 4.74. The APC for the second rotation is likewise calculated the same way at 3.58. The crit chance for Oblit is somewhat higher than that for FS, but it's not higher enough to outscale this APC difference. If you meant for the other rotation to be performed in blood presence, I'll have to do a different set of math, but I've done that math before too.
To head off the other concern, I'll do the math for scaling with weapon damage too: 4xOblit + 6xFS + 2xBS scales with wpd at .48*2 + 1.14*4 + 1.15*6 = 12.42. FSx7.28 + Obx2 + BSx2 scales with wpd at a rate 11.612.
IT, BS, OB, OB, FS is meant to be performed in blood presence. Every attempt to make Unholy presence viable has been met with failure, so odds are Feorthas is doing Blood for the IT spam rotation too. IT spam is probably the only rotation that has a chance of being competitive in unholy presence really, due to the high amount of 1 rune moves.
IT, BS, OB, OB, FS is meant to be performed in blood presence. Every attempt to make Unholy presence viable has been met with failure, so odds are Feorthas is doing Blood for the IT spam rotation too. IT spam is probably the only rotation that has a chance of being competitive in unholy presence really, due to the high amount of 1 rune moves.
I am pulling between 3100 and 3200 DPS self buffed on the dummy using the ITx6 rotation in unholy presence. It is about 250-300 dps more for me than the normal rotation. With that said, I do not have betrayer of humanity and I do not have sigil of awareness, and both of those might slant things back towards the normal rotation for me.
It's mostly to keep RP from capping. With the change to the FS glyph, plus the overall upgrade to RP generation(2 rune abilities used to generate 10 base, right?), not only do we generate RP like crazy, but we also only need 96 RP to for 3x FS. So, most people have been dropping RPM in favor of other talents.
The alternatives you get when not speccing RPM are not that game breaking. The reason behind the weaved-in Frost Strikes is Killing Machine and the new FS-gylph. With the classic rotation you are likely to waste a lot of KM procs, with the new rotation most KM procs will end up as a FS crit.
I added the Dark Conviction talent, and cut my rotation in half (half as many of each ability, 10 s instead of 20) to fit it in the sheet.
BS,IT,Ob,Ob,FS,FS,DMP works out to 2737 in BP, and BS,IT,IT,IT,OB,FS,FS,FS,DMP comes out to 3076 in UP (both with a 21/50 spec).
I like your spreadsheet, by the way, much better organized than the one I've been using. Mind if I split off a version? (I'll leave a credit in there).
Target: Highlord's Nemesis Trainer in Ebon Hold DPS: 3178
DPS time: 3:25
Talents: 21/50 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Gear used: The World of Warcraft Armory
Rotation: IT->BS->FS->OB->FS->OB->FS->(Rime proc if Frost Fever is still active on the target)->restart
Presence used: Blood
Glyphs: IT, FS, OB
Comments: I tried UP but it was not worth it, it may be worth it if you have a really bad latency and/or reactions because you are mashing buttons like there is no tomorrow and a Dodge/Parry can f*** things up badly. Unfortunately I have no Recount shots of Unholy/Blood (51/20 and 17/54) specs but I've tested both alongside and they didn't come close. Most raiding is done for this week so do not expect any Patchwerk WWS/WMO from my side in the next days.
I don't see how your doing 3.1k on a dummy, I've attempted to recreate this, and I even did it on a dummy below 35% hp and still fell dismally short.
IT, BS, OB, OB, FS is meant to be performed in blood presence. Every attempt to make Unholy presence viable has been met with failure, so odds are Feorthas is doing Blood for the IT spam rotation too. IT spam is probably the only rotation that has a chance of being competitive in unholy presence really, due to the high amount of 1 rune moves.
People need to be more open minded, saying UP is bad without reading the many changes just confuses others. If you like to be locked in a tight boring rotation then that's your prerogative, many others have reported UP to be viable.
Even when DW was the craze I was just as competitive in UP as DW 44/27.
People need to be more open minded, saying UP is bad without reading the many changes just confuses others. If you like to be locked in a tight boring rotation then that's your prerogative, many others have reported UP to be viable.
Even when DW was the craze I was just as competitive in UP as DW 44/27.
UP *was* bad. It still is for nearly every spec. If you were competitive as a DW 44/27 in UP, then the people you competed with were not behaving optimally either. The math simply did not work for that (it still doesn't, unless you have more than 300ms latency, or don't push buttons very fast). These were not assumptions being made, the DW thread in particular struggled for months desperately trying to make UP viable with one build or another (we all really *wanted* to dps in UP), and it was never quite there.
This sheet ignores the Ghoul, since all Frost builds get the same amount of damage from him, and his dps depends on how long the fight is. It also doesn't handle Rime quite right, I'm working on that - it just count's 15% of an HB for each IT, when the actual value is significantly lower (about 3/4 of that number). I was fairly stunned by both the dps and the scaling the sheet showed - being competitive *and* having free gcds is a big bonus, since it means you don't have to be a perfect player to hit the buttons fast enough, and you can keep it up even if the boss is moving, and you get out of range occasionally.
Couple of things:
-I used the backend of my sheet to simulate unholy by flipping BP off on the frontend and using the behind the scenes values for net damage.
-The sheet is fully 3.0.8 compliant (ok, MY copy is; the google docs version still has -10% from IT when Glyphed, maybe a few other holdovers; will update at/before 5 est)
-IT spam was in UH, Traditional was in blood. Toggling back and forth between worksheets to swap auras and get the right numbers was annoying.
-Verified KM numbers by hand.
-If you model a IT/PS spam rotation on the frontend of the sheet, it applies the bonus damage for the manually entered disease rotation (right side of the custom entry area) to EVERY IT/PS. Icy touch doesn't do 2.5k (avg) damage on it's own; that's with 3 FF ticks! :p
-IT spam will come close/win on a target dummy, just like HB spam did; don't expect this to hold true in a real-world situation, especially if sunder armor comes into play--which is what most people are worried about (25m output). I included toggles to turn stuff off so that you could get close to a fair predictor for yourself in a less optimal scenario though.
-If Dark Conviction is the 1/2/3/4/5% crit talent in blood, entering your character sheet values takes care of it because it gets added in by WoW (hence why it's not there ).
-My stats are off a bit; I have a little more AP and haste, 0.98% less hit, but more crit and 2T7 now. I left in the old stats as they're a ballpark common-denominator kinda thing (3k ap / hitcap / high 20s crit is a decent spot to be at for a mid-geared 80 dk (heroic/raiding gear))
-I'd prefer that you didn't modify/repost the sheet for public consumption as there are a number of features (like dark conviction) that just automagically get taken care of if the frontend is left as-is. Additionally, the backend is in flux as I still haven't gotten a solid handle on Ghoul/Garg; hopefully I'll have worthwhile numbers for them soon. I'll come up with a way to handle feature requests as a way to compromise though.
Anyway, my previous numbers stand as internally valid; 2381 vs 2572 are where the rotations sit in a balanced, self buffed environment.
Addendum: You don't understand how the sheet works--stop futzing with it. That rime value gets accurately modified in each call to fire an RP dump based on how likely the Frost Strike is to happen (1 - ActualRP/FS_RP for Rime). I have a lot of values in intermidiate states to simplify my own life and they may not make sense at first glance; however, there's no way that my patchwerk dps would be within 1% of predicted if the sheet was making a calculation based on something as basic as a flawed rime proc.
Last edited by Feorthas : 01/23/09 at 5:53 PM.
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
EDIT: Oooh, I see, DRM says it only lets Frost and Unholy Runes refresh as Death. So the real question is weather that is actually checked, or can DRM indeed let those Death(blood) runes refresh as Death runes.
I just confirmed that indeed, Death(blood) runes are refreshed as blood runes when used to Obliterate with Death Rune Mastery. What a shame.
¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.
That's where I got the one I'm using - dr_AllCOM3's sheet is the only one that was posted recently.
Edit: Oh! I misunderstood, I see what you meant now. I'll be back when I figure out why we disagree.
Yeah, I don't see a way for this spreadsheet to handle Unholy presence at all - I'll assume he was running both rotations in BP unless he has another spreadsheet somewhere. ITx6 would be terrible in BP.
IT, BS, OB, OB, FS is meant to be performed in blood presence. Every attempt to make Unholy presence viable has been met with failure
I wouldn't say that. My last PW attempt with 17/54/0 was 5.5k with UPr, and I personally don't think moving to BPr would have been any kind of truly substantial increase. I had a decent number of 10 GCD rotations throwing in HoW with 9 GCDs being the average (which would take 13.5s in BPr). If I had to guess I'd say culling the HoW RP gains and whatnot may have yielded a very small increase (within a couple percent), but to say UPr isn't viable is a bit disingenuous. That 5.5k PW run wasn't even close to optimal and I'm pretty sure it'll be a lot closer to 6k next week.
UP *was* bad. It still is for nearly every spec. If you were competitive as a DW 44/27 in UP, then the people you competed with were not behaving optimally either. The math simply did not work for that (it still doesn't, unless you have more than 300ms latency, or don't push buttons very fast). These were not assumptions being made, the DW thread in particular struggled for months desperately trying to make UP viable with one build or another (we all really *wanted* to dps in UP), and it was never quite there.
If you know how to prioritize KM then UP is just as good, I followed the DW thread as well so yes I know the argument. Just because the math says so doesn't mean its going to be EXACTLY so in reality with RNG being in play. The difference in reality between UP and BP is less than you think, for DW or 2H frost builds.
I was talking about Foerthas' spreadsheet that time, yours does it just fine, but is so complicated it takes forever to check the math :-)
Originally Posted by Teme
If you know how to prioritize KM then UP is just as good, I followed the DW thread as well so yes I know the argument. Just because the math says so doesn't mean its going to be EXACTLY so in reality with RNG being in play. The difference in reality between UP and BP is less than you think, for DW or 2H frost builds.
You're wrong. 'The math' is taking ito account players prioritizing around KM. The math assumes that players are prioritizing perfectly, and responding instantly to KM procs. For a perfect player, the difference is reasonably large for every build that was useable pre-patch (though smaller for 44/27). The difference shrinks as fights get shorter, because the gargoyle is affected by UP but not BP. The only time UP became competitive was when latency reached the 300 ms range. We simulated KM proc-use rate. We used spreadsheets with observed proc-use values in them. We parsed actual WWS logs for each. The difference was substantial in every case - the closest was a 200 dps loss for 44/27.
The answers math gives are wrong only if you do the wrong math. Human anecdotal observation, on the other hand, is wrong nearly all of the time.
I wouldn't say that. My last PW attempt with 17/54/0 was 5.5k with UPr, and I personally don't think moving to BPr would have been any kind of truly substantial increase. I had a decent number of 10 GCD rotations throwing in HoW with 9 GCDs being the average (which would take 13.5s in BPr). If I had to guess I'd say culling the HoW RP gains and whatnot may have yielded a very small increase (within a couple percent), but to say UPr isn't viable is a bit disingenuous. That 5.5k PW run wasn't even close to optimal and I'm pretty sure it'll be a lot closer to 6k next week.
Seems I chose my words poorly =p
Yes, saying that unholy presence can't be viable was an overstatement, my apologies. By viable what I really meant was ideal. In the past (in this thread anyway) the math almost -always- falls in favor of Blood Presence. In fact I'm not sure it's ever fallen in favor of UP in this thread, and from the sounds of Jan's posts it's never fallen in favor of UP in the DW thread either. You can't say that you don't think moving to BP would have any kind of truly substantial increase without math or testing to back up the claim, when most of our evidence so far has been to the contrary. I'm not saying it's impossible for UP to beat BP, in fact it may be entirely possible with our increased number of Frost Strikes or a single rune skill heavy rotation like IT spam. Past experience says it's unlikely, I'd love to be proven wrong if it means we've learned a way to increase our dps.
Here is my parse as 21/50 doing the ITx6 rotation in unholy presence. I was hovering between 3000 and 3100 dps. I did this with FC on my weapon, but I get pretty much identical numbers with razorice. I do not have merciless combat in my spec right now. My frost strike crit rate was a good bit lower than it usually is (around 62-64%).
Edit* - I'm still using a titansteel destroyer, so a weapon upgrade will boost my frost strikes a lot.
I don't see how your doing 3.1k on a dummy, I've attempted to recreate this, and I even did it on a dummy below 35% hp and still fell dismally short.
Don't panic, seems I was lucky with KM procs. I've just tried it again and ended up with around 3010 DPS over ~4 minutes. Next weeks Naxxramas will give a more accurate evaluation of this spec. There are already several others in this thread with quite positive feedback though.
You're wrong. 'The math' is taking ito account players prioritizing around KM. The math assumes that players are prioritizing perfectly, and responding instantly to KM procs. For a perfect player, the difference is reasonably large for every build that was useable pre-patch (though smaller for 44/27). The difference shrinks as fights get shorter, because the gargoyle is affected by UP but not BP. The only time UP became competitive was when latency reached the 300 ms range. We simulated KM proc-use rate. We used spreadsheets with observed proc-use values in them. We parsed actual WWS logs for each. The difference was substantial in every case - the closest was a 200 dps loss for 44/27.
The answers math gives are wrong only if you do the wrong math. Human anecdotal observation, on the other hand, is wrong nearly all of the time.
I'm saying no one can probably get that instant response to a KM and might use it on a IT when a HB was actually ready. Before the KM change a lot of the time I would find myself KM starved for extended periods of time when in BP, but when you do get the lucky chain KM procs then yes BP would come out on top. Being in UP gave me more consistent KM procs and dps, I guess RNG doesn't like me being in BP.
I'm playing with anywhere from 200-400ms latency by the way.
Yes, saying that unholy presence can't be viable was an overstatement, my apologies. By viable what I really meant was ideal. In the past (in this thread anyway) the math almost -always- falls in favor of Blood Presence. In fact I'm not sure it's ever fallen in favor of UP in this thread, and from the sounds of Jan's posts it's never fallen in favor of UP in the DW thread either. You can't say that you don't think moving to BP would have any kind of truly substantial increase without math or testing to back up the claim, when most of our evidence so far has been to the contrary. I'm not saying it's impossible for UP to beat BP, in fact it may be entirely possible with our increased number of Frost Strikes or a single rune skill heavy rotation like IT spam. Past experience says it's unlikely, I'd love to be proven wrong if it means we've learned a way to increase our dps.
I may go over that WWS report I posted a couple pages back a bit tomorrow and see what I can glean from it. What I do know is that I've been sitting on the dummy a lot lately with this build, and I'm consistently ahead with UPr compared to BPr, which was not the case before 3.0.8. I think it's probably a combination of a few things; being able to throw FS mid rotation to prevent overlapped KM procs, being able to sit on that last FS for a second to prevent IT from consuming a late KM proc, being able to hit HoW easily every 20s for the 10 RP (which is something I find very hard to find time for in BPr at all). Regardless, just sitting on the dummy when he's above 35% I trend about 2.95-3.0 in BPr and 3.10-3.15 in UPr when it starts to level off around 1.5 million damage.
I may go over that WWS report I posted a couple pages back a bit tomorrow and see what I can glean from it. What I do know is that I've been sitting on the dummy a lot lately with this build, and I'm consistently ahead with UPr compared to BPr, which was not the case before 3.0.8. I think it's probably a combination of a few things; being able to throw FS mid rotation to prevent overlapped KM procs, being able to sit on that last FS for a second to prevent IT from consuming a late KM proc, being able to hit HoW easily every 20s for the 10 RP (which is something I find very hard to find time for in BPr at all). Regardless, just sitting on the dummy when he's above 35% I trend about 2.95-3.0 in BPr and 3.10-3.15 in UPr when it starts to level off around 1.5 million damage.
Most people will do better in unholy than in blood. When I said 200 ms latency, I meant wire latency *plus* person latency - anyone that hasn't spent a few hours training on a dummy, or raided constantly for weeks will lose more than 100 ms to decision-making and finger reflex. Unholy presence (with most rotations) is much more forgiving than any of the blood rotations.
Most people will do better in unholy than in blood. When I said 200 ms latency, I meant wire latency *plus* person latency - anyone that hasn't spent a few hours training on a dummy, or raided constantly for weeks will lose more than 100 ms to decision-making and finger reflex. Unholy presence (with most rotations) is much more forgiving than any of the blood rotations.
Yeah, it's not that. Trust me, UPr was clearly behind BPr prior to 3.0.8 with this spec, as I've been running it for a while. Dummy testing isn't showing those same results after the FS, KM and HoW changes.
Yeah, it's not that. Trust me, UPr was clearly behind BPr prior to 3.0.8 with this spec, as I've been running it for a while. Dummy testing isn't showing those same results after the FS, KM and HoW changes.
Oh! We agree then, I was only holding that there were no specs for which UP was best before the patch. There are a couple now, 21/50 being my favorite. I see that you mentioned that in the post I replied to, my apologies for missing it - I put it in the wrong context.
Just so I can get some context for my testing tonight, what kind of DPS do those of you running 2H Frost see on the "raid" level dummies in BPr (I'm assuming that is what most of you test in)? Pre- or post-35% on the dummy numbers are fine.
Edit - I've been doing some fiddling with my rotation to get more comfortable with FS and UPr. While the dummy I'm on here is under 35% (which almost all of them seem to be on my server whenever I find them), I made sure there were no other kind of debuffs on there. Ran this one to about 4 minutes and was hovering around 3.5k. I did not use ERW (I'm trying to get more comfortable moving UA into my rotation w/ BT) or the ghoul, but was using UA and Deathchill:
Just so I can get some context for my testing tonight, what kind of DPS do those of you running 2H Frost see on the "raid" level dummies in BPr (I'm assuming that is what most of you test in)? Pre- or post-35% on the dummy numbers are fine.
Edit - I've been doing some fiddling with my rotation to get more comfortable with FS and UPr. While the dummy I'm on here is under 35% (which almost all of them seem to be on my server whenever I find them), I made sure there were no other kind of debuffs on there. Ran this one to about 4 minutes and was hovering around 3.5k. I did not use ERW (I'm trying to get more comfortable moving UA into my rotation w/ BT) or the ghoul, but was using UA and Deathchill:
that is actually impressive..
Rotation being?
IT, PS, OB, BS, BS 3 x FS
IT, PS, OB, IT, IT 3 x FS
While weaving in HB on rime procs?
capping out around 3.6k with the ghoul myself.. 3.5k dps w/o pets is quite high how was your crit ratio on FS/IT/OB?
Here is my parse as 21/50 doing the ITx6 rotation in unholy presence. I was hovering between 3000 and 3100 dps.
Those numbers scare me. I did pretty much same numbers (3100 dps) as 17/0/54 with my gear (sigil, betrayer, 4xt7), ghoul and gargoyle (with FC procs) on both ebon and silvermoon heroic dummies (both got HP, 5+ min). Either I suck major balls or it is time to respec.
Originally Posted by Ish
capping out around 3.6k with the ghoul myself.. 3.5k dps w/o pets is quite high how was your crit ratio on FS/IT/OB?
Keep in mind he was beating <35% target so you should lower IT, FS, HB and OB damage by 12% if you want compare it to yours.
01/23/09, 4:21 PM
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