Your forgetting a factor. Unless you are spell hit and expertise capped, you will miss, adding GCDs. RNG dependent, you will (eventually) run into situations where your rotations exceed 9 cooldowns per 10 seconds. Moreover, with Rime being a random proc, you can run into some very imbalanced rotation lengths.

Additionally, you are forgetting the 2 RP/5 from butchery. Its a minor factor, but it does add up over time.

As for the general debate of a fixed rotation vs. a priority system, the simplest way to prove or disprove something would be to hit the targeting dummy, and measure both. Record the number of hits of each ability, take the time/10, and divide each ability by the result and you should get your number of activations/10 seconds. Given that, it shouldn't be terribly hard to figure out which system will give you the most raid DPS. Well almost, spell hit buffs will probably skew things a bit toward the fixed rotation.

I tested on the boss dummy to see the damage spread of "6xIT rotation".

Rotation: IT BS FS OB FS FS IT IT FS, BS IT FS IT IT FS FS OB FS HB

Total frost damage was over 70%. Would it be better to use Razorice instead of FC? Especially if Unholy presence doesn't increase ppm of FC (what recent posts suggest).

Here is what I use, took from Doc sheet:

STR	2.3
Armor	0.027
AGI	1.05
Crit	1.15
Hit	1.9 (0.45)
Haste	0.55
Exp	1.05
ArP	1.05
2h DPS	10.5

Should be quite accurate.


Yesterday I was beating ebon dummy some. I hit 3450 with FC and 3500 dps with razor (sub 35% of course) so I think both are quite comparable. I was using OB rotation instead of 6xIT so I did less frost damage. FC will be obviously better for aoe and it self heal some, razor will buff your mages (if they didn't all spec arcane yet that is).

Could the discrepancy stated above be caused by Misses/Parries/Dodges against the Boss Target Dummy?
I'm also not finding myself having nothing to use ever but I'm occasionally having a Dodge/Parry/Miss against the Boss Target Dummy.

Edit: I just noticed that my second Blood Rune stays a Death Rune forever incombat, even when I use it to IT. This only happens when I use my usual beginning of IT>BS>Blood Tap>Oblit>Oblit>IT. That could be the source of the discrepancy between theory and praxis.

Well, it would have been nice if Fuga had given us a time frame for how long he beat on the boss dummy. Hard to tell if those numbers are actually substantial or if he just had a low % of crits for when he used FC and a high % of crits while using Razorice. Even with the OBx2 rotation, ~45% of your damage is still frost. So, razorice should in theory give +2% to your melee damage (~.7% dps increase) and 5% more frost damage (~2.25%) for a combined 3% overall dps increase. I'm doubtful that contends with FC for self sustained dps, but it does help out others in the raid.

@Hidden
If you have a death rune already before you BT, then one of your blood runes will stay a death rune forever, which is awesome because you switch then between OBx2, BSx1, ITx1 and OBx2, ITx2. It's a nice little dps increase for those stand still and smash fights. Also gets you more RP for FS.

I get the following:

3 AP : 1.37
1.5 Str : 1.54
1.5 Agi : 0.64
0.03% Crit : 0.87
0.05% Hit : 0.16 (after 8%)
0.05% Hit : 1.04 (at 5%)
0.05% Expertise : 0.88 (at 4.5%)
0.1% Armor Pen : 0.63 (at 0%)
0.1% Armor Pen : 0.62 (at 5%)
0.05% Haste : 0.42 (at 28% (IIT + 3.8%))
1 Weapon DPS : 5.91 (at 186x3.5)
0.1 Weapon Speed : 29.47 (at 186x3.5)

All of the above are raidbuffed valuations with Fallen Crusader on your weapon.

-----------------

Regarding Killing Machine:
-Using 'base' sheet values & modeling 2nd half of 6IT rotation
-Swapping out of BP in sheet reduces GCD time now (upload within the hour)

Sequence: IT FS IT FS IT IT FS IT FS IT FS (start with 16 RP)

KM: 100.91

Note that 11 of 10 gcds are needed (nbd, you have spare GCDs in the lead-in half).

Adding in the lead-in half:

Sequence: BS OB FS BS OB FS DMP

KM: 59.07 dps

Net KM: 160-165 dps

---

Reverting back to BP and IT BS OB OB:

KM: 215.97

Regarding the 226 dps delta between your (Jan's) predicted and my predicted--I'm not sure where 10 dps come from, but there's the 216 from KM. Assuming super-optimal play and ninja reflexes, 6IT can get more than 160 KM damage but you have to refrain from button mashing and pick which ability to use at the absolute last second whereas you can mash all day with IT BS OB OB and still get the full value.

Also, reorganizing the second half of 6IT should not result in a dps gain through KM as all of the skills used can eat KM procs.

Nothing wrong with being a sarcastic ass. Its my current occupation 24/7

Now then, As far as Razorice vs FC, has this been tested in a raid environment? I try to shy away from thinking whats best on a dummy = whats best in a raid. 5% frost damage is a good, nice contribution to 70ish % of your damage. However, EVERYTHING benefits from strength, so which is better? 30% strength increase for 15 seconds, with a 1 ppm proc rate (as I believe it is at, could be wrong)..

assuming 1 proc per minute:

60/15 = 4

30% + strength for 25% of your DPS time, give our take. Which equals (roughly)

30/4 = 7.50% constant strength increase, which increases ALL damage you deal by a decent margin. (probably somewhere along the lines of 3% or so, that's an estimate mind you, since the actual math would take me factoring in every move and attack you use.)

If the procrate is more then 1 PPM, then it's even stronger.

vs.

Now then, razorice, static +5% damage bonus to your 3 frost spells (IT FS and HB)

plus 2% damage (as frost) to all strikes and auto attacks.

I'm leaning towards razorice personally, but i'm eager to know if FC can stand it's ground (in a min/maxing sense)


Also, here's a question for you all.

Does razorice double dip for frost strike?

Which is to say, does it calculate like so:

(FS damage *1.05 )( .02)?

or

(FS damage )( .02 )( 1.05)?

or does the razorice effect count as it's own seperate ability?

random strike *.02 *1.05

If so, that's quite interesting. Ultimately this is all min/maxxing and not really needed to be competitive for right now, since the dps difference is like 100ish max (if that). But I still like to know how to best maximize my DPS.

Sorry for the double post, but when I think about it, Have we done a complete analysis of which runeforge is the best for each spec? Cinderglacier seems like it would be promising to, considering it's high Proc rate.

I'm at work now, but I plan on running a few tests for each of the DPS runes to see what the difference is.

So after having read all the pages in this thread, I've seen multiple rotations and people testing different things, but what I want to know is this:

I've decided to go with the 21/50/0 spec

What is the optimal rotation (or at least most popular) based on this spec? I've been reading about the 6xIT and wondering if that is about the same as a more "standard" rotation, or is that pretty much the best with this spec?

From what I'm reading it could be one of a few different rotations. Here's what I was going to try:

BT IT OB OB BS (1st set)
IT IT IT IT IT IT (2nd set)
dump (FS)
Throwing in FS before capping RP anywhere in the rotation (I cap at 120 with my spec)
repeat

Is this the standard ITx6 or is this a variation on it? If so, what is standard ITx6 and what is a "good" rotation that isn't ITx6 for that spec?

Thanks in advance.

I think the best way to do it is probably a constant pace rotation instead of building up 6 death runes. Due to unholy and blood runes switching spots with their partner'd death rune, every ~ten seconds you can use IT>BS>OB>IT>IT while dumping RP. To maximise DPS you never want to "waste" RP. Use your RP whenever it seems to be above 60 (or 70 if you have 1/3 Runic Power Mastery)

If you are in Unholy Presence, and fully hit/expertise capped then you will (with slight lag) almost push unholy presence to its limit. If you miss sometimes, then you will be pushing Unholy Presence to its limit due to misses and rime procs and you will be chaincasting.

Remember to not waste death runes. You should only use OB and BS when you have a nondeath unholy or blood rune.

What is this bug or thing people are talking about having one blood rune being a permanent death rune. Are you saying that somehow a blood rune (through a bug) will NEVER turn into a blood rune and it will stay a death rune forever. I this bug is real it can be a good increase to DPS.

It is well known that 6xIT in UP doesn't quite use all the GCDs, and I've seen various debate over how the remainder can be used for lag, dodges, etc.

Has anyone done any math to see if (assuming lag, dodge, is not an issue) using Horn of Winter in one set will allow for an extra FS eventually in another?

It seems like the extra GCD or two in UP could work HoW in for a little bit more RP, and thereby become a little bit stronger vs BP.

My own calculations about GCD usage assuming 4T7 and Icy Touch Glyph using a 'bugged' Death Rune:
(First rotation: 2IT, 1BS, 2Ob, 1BT)
Second rotation: 5IT, 1BS
Third rotation: 2Ob, 2IT
repeat

Rime procs(assuming 100% usage): 7 IT/20 seconds * 0.15 procs/IT=1.05 procs/20 seconds

Total skill usage in 20 seconds: 7IT, 1 BS, 2Ob, 1.05HB
Total RP generated in 20 seconds: 7*25+1*10+2*30+1.05*5+4*2=258.25
FS possible in 20 seconds: 258.25/32=8.07
Total skill usage in 20 seconds: 7IT, 1BS, 2Ob, 1.05HB, 8.07FS (19.12 abilites / 20 seconds)
Adding Raise Dead and Horn of Winter: 1/(300/20)+1/(180/20) = 0.18
Total skill usage in 20 seconds: 19.12+0.18=19.3

So you're using an average of 19.3 skills in 20 seconds assuming you use every HB proc, Raise Dead on CD and refresh HoW every 3 minutes.

Calculations of FC in this scenario using 5% haste from gear and a 3.4 speed weapon:
Attack speed: 3.4/1.05/1.15/1.05/1.2/1.03=2.17
Proc chance: 5.67%
Attacks in 15 seconds: 15/2.17+11.07*3/4=15.22
Chance of FC not being up: (1-0.0567)^15.22=0.411 (41.1%)
FC Uptime: 58.9%
Average Strength increase: 17.67%

As far as I know, PPM mechanics are affected by haste, and you have (at least) 25% haste from talents, so that would increase your FC white hit procs by 0.25 per minute. It's not much, but it adds to the value of Fallen Crusader and Cinderglacier. This is the same that happens with KM procs being more frequent in Unholy Presence due to its inherent haste.

The strength from FC affects all your spells on all mobs. Razorice only the mob you are attacking. Furthermore FC works extremely well with the greatness trinket.

How is cinderglacier comparing to those two enchants? Because cinderglacier is my favorite enchant. It produces bigger numbers. :p

For personal DPS FC > Razorice > Cinderglacier, math's been done on them a few times in the past. For raid DPS Razorice is the best if you have at least 1 FF mage in your raid.

Can you please link to those, or just point me in the right thread, because I'm following all threads here and haven't seen any significant math behind those.

And any math done probably didn't consider that over 70% of total damage is frost - that's the case for "6xIT" rotation.

Discussion in DW thread I wouldn't consider really relevant to this new rotation, as frost damage from 32/39 is HB and IT - there's no FS, which makes over 35% of 6xIT build alone.

With a 3.4 speed weapon, 1PPM, that means that you have a proc chance of
(60/3.4)=17.6 swings per minute.
1/17.6=5.7% chance to proc.
Assuming Blood Presence.

So, in a 1 minute window you get
30 special attacks, 27 of which being strikes (with perfect latency and button mashing, not realistic but we're going with it)(this is assuming the PS-less OBx2 rotation I use)
Weapon speed 3.4/1.25(IIT)=2.72.
(60/2.72)=22.1 swings per minutes.
So, we got 49 shots at 5.7%. There is no cooldown on FC.
So we should get 2.8 procs per minute, with 15 second durations. So we have a maximum average of 42 seconds of uptime per minute. I'm sure we can safely say that we would get a solid 50% uptime.

So 30% strength with 50% uptime seems much greater than Razorice (for my rotation OBx2).

For the ITx6 rotation you have 24 strikes instead.
So you should get 2.6 procs per minute, with 15 second durations. So you have a maximum average of 39 seconds of uptime per minute. So I would say probably a solid 45% uptime with BP.

DISCLAIMER: I don't know how UP affects PPM, whether PPM scales down with it or not, so I'm just not even going to bother with it. If you know, then you should be able to hypothesize using the ez math i just showed.

Well this is an issue. I'm no longer sure.

Blizzard has reworked the way haste works with PPM mechanics in WotLK. You would've been right in TBC, but I'm no longer 100% sure. It used to use base weapon speed, but I read a discussion somewhere (might have been here on EJ) that haste now uses hasted speed.
Which would actually, considering instant attacks, make haste decrease the amount of procs you get.

EDIT:
Found the article in the Thinktank. Apparently the haste modifies the proc chance on white attacks, but not on instant attacks.
So i think we are both wrong, getting more haste will in fact do nothing to increase / decrease proc chances.

------

Interesting though since, what people have shown from tests KM does not abide this law. From test results posted I've seen that KM does proc more with more haste.

KM does not proc more with haste based on my observations (my tank spec doesn't have room for IIT but my DPS spec does); it procs at 4.5 observed ppm as of naxx last week, slowly moving up from 4 PPM as the night went on (approaching 5 as limit for time approached infinity, which is how PPM works).

I'll watch again this week but I doubt that'll change. Also, more spreadsheet updates soon; the gist is that 6IT comes even with IT BS OB OB but only if you work in IT BS OB IT IT halves.

Hmmm well KM has changed a lot over the course of the past few weeks, it could be an old PTR test when KM was still buggy and all.

Funny fact, i was reading the official boards. Where people take the ITx6 totally out of context. Like you said before, the optimal way is to break up the IT and spread them over the whole 20 second rotation.

I think I explained myself wrong. I didn't say haste augments your proc chance. As it was calculated above, your proc chance comes from BASE weapon speed and PPM, in this case, one. However! If you have haste, you are getting more white hits in a minute, increasing your total procs, not your proc chance. I'll dig it up, but I'm kinda sure that people had found out that KM procced more in Unholy Presence. It is possible that it's something particular to the haste derived from the presence, but... I'll run some dummy tests as soon as I can anyway, dummies are useful for that, hehe.

TLDR: What I'm suggesting (based on KM implementation) is that haste doesn't change your proc chance, it increases the number of procs just because the number of hits that can trigger the effect increases

Well that is a feature that blizzard changed in TBC apparently because it used to do exactly that. (I'm talking about PPM mechanics in general here)

If you got more haste you get more procs, because you do more attacks with the same proc chance (as you said).

However blizzard decided to change that in this way:
- White hit proc chances are affected by haste. That way stacking haste wont make the PPM scale out of control. So no matter how much haste you have number of procs should be the same
- Yellow hit proc chances are not affected by haste. That way stacking haste won't lower the chance of a proc on a yellow swing.

Now the reason they made white hits scale with haste could very well be, because haste in TBC was an insanely good stat, I mean just look at the popularity of Dragonspine Trophy.

Now on the other hand haste is one of the worst stats for many melee classes. This could be one of the changes blizzard might make to make haste more attractive again for melee classes.

----------

Killing Machine in its whole is a bit of an odd PPM mechanic since its one of the few that only procs of white hits.